Just-Dice.com : now with added CLAMs : Play or Invest

[ChaosFox]

I also think staking rewards should be distributed considering on-site investment only as well. The rationale is simply that even though the promised, off-site investment does count towards the site's total, they'd be collecting staking twice for CLAM that are only working once: in their own wallet, supposedly.

[dooglus]

Another issue I forgot to mention:

On the test site I'd seen people switching their 'offsite coins' between 0 and (lots) every second or two. That's causing big swings in the max profit, and is really annoying for players to play against. You don't know from one second to the next whether you're going to be able to have your bet accepted or not.

The intention is for this new feature to allow investors to reduce their counterparty risk by keeping the majority of their coins offsite, and so I don't see any reason to allow people to change their offsite declaration repeatedly.

I'm thinking maybe allowing it to be changed 4 times per day or something like that would be sufficient, and prevent the kind of shenanigans we've been seeing. Maybe we need to always allow a "/cold 0" for use in cases of emergency, but once the 4 changes per day are used up, that's the only /cold value that will be accepted.

Thoughts?

[ranlo]

Another issue I forgot to mention:

On the test site I'd seen people switching their 'offsite coins' between 0 and (lots) every second or two. That's causing big swings in the max profit, and is really annoying for players to play against. You don't know from one second to the next whether you're going to be able to have your bet accepted or not.

The intention is for this new feature to allow investors to reduce their counterparty risk by keeping the majority of their coins offsite, and so I don't see any reason to allow people to change their offsite declaration repeatedly.

I'm thinking maybe allowing it to be changed 4 times per day or something like that would be sufficient, and prevent the kind of shenanigans we've been seeing. Maybe we need to always allow a "/cold 0" for use in cases of emergency, but once the 4 changes per day are used up, that's the only /cold value that will be accepted.

Thoughts?

Even 4 is overkill. Two should be more than enough.

[Cyrax89721]

I can't imagine that once "real" coins come into play, it'll be swinging as drastically as it does now with the freebies.  Also the max profit is usually much higher than the usual wagers, so bets being placed should rarely have to worry about paying attention to the max profit.

[DareC]

Why let users declare a value at all? If you really want to do something like this, allow users to declare offsite addresses, and require a signed message for verification. Then, track the balance of those addresses.

I realize it's a lot more work to implement, but it makes things a lot more honest.

[ranlo]

Why let users declare a value at all? If you really want to do something like this, allow users to declare offsite addresses, and require a signed message for verification. Then, track the balance of those addresses.

I realize it's a lot more work to implement, but it makes things a lot more honest.

He already stated it's not about honesty. It's about options.

i.e., I can have 100 CLAM but have enough fiat sitting aside to buy BTC and then convert that into CLAM to buy another 900. So this would allow me to claim I have 1k, and if needed, I can do the purchase to replenish my losses.

Or I could just be a big risk taker that has no issue losing it all on one bad roll, but still want the ability to earn a lot more if things go well.

[picolo]

They aren't contributing, so they shouldn't count.

They are not contributing to the staking, but they are contributing to the max profit. I think however it is done, the incentivizes needs to align with pushing people to keep money offsite (which is beneficial to investors, Dooglus and the coin).

They are contributing to the max profit so they get their share of the casino profits but they should not get CLAM for stacking when they are stacking off line too.

[picolo]

Another issue I forgot to mention:

On the test site I'd seen people switching their 'offsite coins' between 0 and (lots) every second or two. That's causing big swings in the max profit, and is really annoying for players to play against. You don't know from one second to the next whether you're going to be able to have your bet accepted or not.

The intention is for this new feature to allow investors to reduce their counterparty risk by keeping the majority of their coins offsite, and so I don't see any reason to allow people to change their offsite declaration repeatedly.

I'm thinking maybe allowing it to be changed 4 times per day or something like that would be sufficient, and prevent the kind of shenanigans we've been seeing. Maybe we need to always allow a "/cold 0" for use in cases of emergency, but once the 4 changes per day are used up, that's the only /cold value that will be accepted.

Thoughts?

Something to consider is that when it will be on just-dice many big investors will not change their offsite coins as often so there will be less swings in the max profit. Small investors may change their offsite coins often but it will be for smaller amounts.

Always allowing the command /cold 0 is a very good idea if you decide to limit the number of switches an investor is allowed.

[rocoro]

Bring back the lottery that used to be in clam (or a better variation of it)..  that will more evenly distribute large amounts.

Say, like having multiple somewhat large jackpots.

Avoids all this other hassle of leverage and being tied so much to JD's site.

[bobboooiie]

Just a question doog. Leverage will not work under 1% right? i.e. I could not set it for 0.5% or 0.25% etc (basicaly even lower my piece in bankroll)

[chilly2k]

Bring back the lottery that used to be in clam (or a better variation of it)..  that will more evenly distribute large amounts.

Say, like having multiple somewhat large jackpots.

Avoids all this other hassle of leverage and being tied so much to JD's site.

   I personally didn't care for the lottery.  I've been staking since July, and I never hit a lottery block.  I have bad luck.  At least now I can count on getting x% and not .x%

[rocoro]

Bring back the lottery that used to be in clam (or a better variation of it)..  that will more evenly distribute large amounts.

Say, like having multiple somewhat large jackpots.

Avoids all this other hassle of leverage and being tied so much to JD's site.

   I personally didn't care for the lottery.  I've been staking since July, and I never hit a lottery block.  I have bad luck.  At least now I can count on getting x% and not .x%

Like I said, or make a better version / variation of it.

Why have things so tied to JD?  Especially when you're trying to get away from doing that.

[picolo]

Bring back the lottery that used to be in clam (or a better variation of it)..  that will more evenly distribute large amounts.

Say, like having multiple somewhat large jackpots.

Avoids all this other hassle of leverage and being tied so much to JD's site.

   I personally didn't care for the lottery.  I've been staking since July, and I never hit a lottery block.  I have bad luck.  At least now I can count on getting x% and not .x%

Never a single block? How many CLAMS did you have?

[galbros]

Another issue I forgot to mention:

On the test site I'd seen people switching their 'offsite coins' between 0 and (lots) every second or two. That's causing big swings in the max profit, and is really annoying for players to play against. You don't know from one second to the next whether you're going to be able to have your bet accepted or not.

The intention is for this new feature to allow investors to reduce their counterparty risk by keeping the majority of their coins offsite, and so I don't see any reason to allow people to change their offsite declaration repeatedly.

I'm thinking maybe allowing it to be changed 4 times per day or something like that would be sufficient, and prevent the kind of shenanigans we've been seeing. Maybe we need to always allow a "/cold 0" for use in cases of emergency, but once the 4 changes per day are used up, that's the only /cold value that will be accepted.

Thoughts?

Regarding the earlier point about staking, I like having my (modest) JD investment stake as well.  It allows me to root for bettors knowing that any losses will be made up over time.  Of course, right now bettors are not doing do well...

Anyway, regarding this issue, I think a limit is called for.  With any new system users are going to find things to exploit and so some limits may help curtail the opportunism.  Great idea using Doge Dice for testing of your new system.

Thanks.

[Bizmark13]

Apologies for the newbie-ish question but I understand that CLAM is a proof-of-stake coin with 1% annual inflation. That sounds similar to Peercoin which also has 1% annual inflation. I just found the following on the FAQ page:

STAKE: we just staked 1.0000 CLAM - What does this mean?

Being a proof-of-stake coin means that just by holding coins the site earns rewards for staking blocks. All of the rewards earned are added to the site's bankroll, for players to play against and win. Just as each time a player loses against the site your invested amount goes up by the proportional amount, so it does when a stake is added. The amount your invested total changes on each win, loss or stake depends on the percentage of the site bankroll you hold. This earning will be subject to commission in the same way all gains are.

The rewards earned from staking do not show up in the site's overall profit, or in the site profit percentage but they do show up in each individual investor's profit stat. This allows us to compare the site's profit from players with the expectation. We expect the site profit to tend to 1% of the wagered amount over time.

Is it correct that the staking rewards for CLAMs stored on Just-Dice are given to the investors or does dooglus get to keep these? I know proof-of-stake coins held on exchanges are staked by the exchange owners for extra profit on top of fees.

So if the former is true (and I think the FAQ suggests that this is the case), the actual expected profit for a bunch of CLAMs invested in Just-Dice is 1% from staking + the losses of players from the house edge, correct?

[ranlo]

So if the former is true (and I think the FAQ suggests that this is the case), the actual expected profit for a bunch of CLAMs invested in Just-Dice is 1% from staking + the losses of players from the house edge, correct?

You got it. Staked coins are added to the bankroll (profit).

[picolo]

Apologies for the newbie-ish question but I understand that CLAM is a proof-of-stake coin with 1% annual inflation. That sounds similar to Peercoin which also has 1% annual inflation. I just found the following on the FAQ page:

STAKE: we just staked 1.0000 CLAM - What does this mean?

Being a proof-of-stake coin means that just by holding coins the site earns rewards for staking blocks. All of the rewards earned are added to the site's bankroll, for players to play against and win. Just as each time a player loses against the site your invested amount goes up by the proportional amount, so it does when a stake is added. The amount your invested total changes on each win, loss or stake depends on the percentage of the site bankroll you hold. This earning will be subject to commission in the same way all gains are.

The rewards earned from staking do not show up in the site's overall profit, or in the site profit percentage but they do show up in each individual investor's profit stat. This allows us to compare the site's profit from players with the expectation. We expect the site profit to tend to 1% of the wagered amount over time.

Is it correct that the staking rewards for CLAMs stored on Just-Dice are given to the investors or does dooglus get to keep these? I know proof-of-stake coins held on exchanges are staked by the exchange owners for extra profit on top of fees.

So if the former is true (and I think the FAQ suggests that this is the case), the actual expected profit for a bunch of CLAMs invested in Just-Dice is 1% from staking + the losses of players from the house edge, correct?

The inflation is far more than 1%/year. There are about 500 000 CLAM and 1 new CLAM created every minute + CLAM dugged out of non dust bitcoin addresses during the CLAM distribution on May 2013.

[rocoro]

Apologies for the newbie-ish question but I understand that CLAM is a proof-of-stake coin with 1% annual inflation. That sounds similar to Peercoin which also has 1% annual inflation. I just found the following on the FAQ page:

STAKE: we just staked 1.0000 CLAM - What does this mean?

Being a proof-of-stake coin means that just by holding coins the site earns rewards for staking blocks. All of the rewards earned are added to the site's bankroll, for players to play against and win. Just as each time a player loses against the site your invested amount goes up by the proportional amount, so it does when a stake is added. The amount your invested total changes on each win, loss or stake depends on the percentage of the site bankroll you hold. This earning will be subject to commission in the same way all gains are.

The rewards earned from staking do not show up in the site's overall profit, or in the site profit percentage but they do show up in each individual investor's profit stat. This allows us to compare the site's profit from players with the expectation. We expect the site profit to tend to 1% of the wagered amount over time.

Is it correct that the staking rewards for CLAMs stored on Just-Dice are given to the investors or does dooglus get to keep these? I know proof-of-stake coins held on exchanges are staked by the exchange owners for extra profit on top of fees.

So if the former is true (and I think the FAQ suggests that this is the case), the actual expected profit for a bunch of CLAMs invested in Just-Dice is 1% from staking + the losses of players from the house edge, correct?

The inflation is far more than 1%/year. There are about 500 000 CLAM and 1 new CLAM created every minute + CLAM dugged out of non dust bitcoin addresses during the CLAM distribution on May 2013.

Yeah that's a lot of jdcoin(clam) ..  and just mainly for one site, and to *mostly* tied to that site.
Too much risk for me, I think.

[dooglus]

The inflation is far more than 1%/year. There are about 500 000 CLAM and 1 new CLAM created every minute + CLAM dugged out of non dust bitcoin addresses during the CLAM distribution on May 2013.

I think the 1% is meant to be of the total amount in existence, including the coins that weren't dug up yet.

If you include those, there are around 15 million coins in existence.

That gives an annual inflation rate of 3.5%:

>>> 60*24 * 365 * 100 / 15e6
3.504

So I'm not sure where they get the 1% figure from.

The official website says:

Proof-Of-Stake reward is designed to replace coins lost, unclaimed or inaccessible over time. The block reward of 1 CLAM means that 526,000 new CLAMs are created each year. The annual rate of return varies in relation to the current active money supply. Accordingly, the present annual rate of return is 234%, and the daily return is 0.64%

I thought it used to say that inflation was 1% annually, but maybe I'm wrong about that. The current figure is pretty inaccurate too, since as of now:

17:20:52 INFO: 280,131 CLAM were dug up and 189,096 CLAM were staked for a total of 469,227 CLAM

so that's not much over 100% growth per year. If something grows from 100 to 105 in a year you call that a 5% return, right? Not a 105% return?

[picolo]

The inflation is far more than 1%/year. There are about 500 000 CLAM and 1 new CLAM created every minute + CLAM dugged out of non dust bitcoin addresses during the CLAM distribution on May 2013.

I think the 1% is meant to be of the total amount in existence, including the coins that weren't dug up yet.

If you include those, there are around 15 million coins in existence.

That gives an annual inflation rate of 3.5%:

>>> 60*24 * 365 * 100 / 15e6
3.504

So I'm not sure where they get the 1% figure from.

The official website says:

Proof-Of-Stake reward is designed to replace coins lost, unclaimed or inaccessible over time. The block reward of 1 CLAM means that 526,000 new CLAMs are created each year. The annual rate of return varies in relation to the current active money supply. Accordingly, the present annual rate of return is 234%, and the daily return is 0.64%

I thought it used to say that inflation was 1% annually, but maybe I'm wrong about that. The current figure is pretty inaccurate too, since as of now:

17:20:52 INFO: 280,131 CLAM were dug up and 189,096 CLAM were staked for a total of 469,227 CLAM

so that's not much over 100% growth per year. If something grows from 100 to 105 in a year you call that a 5% return, right? Not a 105% return?

If you take into account the CLAM dugged it's a bigger inflation. The CLAM inflation should be decreasing over time.

Did you consider creating a new coin for just-dice instead of using CLAM?
There were a lot of advantages to use CLAM but also some disavantages.
How would you estimate the probability to reintroduce BTC (at least partially not to crash the CLAM market) for just-dice in 2015? An estimate to the best of your capabilities would be nice even if it's hard to guess