Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game

[Noitev]

Looks like a new dice competitor with a slick design is now offering investors 1%, 2% or 3% house edge. Combined with leveraged investment with a kelly ranging from 0.25 to 10x.

Can we please get a custom kelly at least?  Being able to use leverage would reduce counterpart risk for investors, and would reduce the site owner from being a target of extortion/ransom/violence.

What's really amazing is that if you look at the number of bets and the amounts bet the 3% pool has a considerable amount of action.  I would not have thought this possible as it seems illogical why anyone would choose to shoot against a 3% house advantage rather than a 1% are higher limits really that attractive?

Dooglus, I know you keep an eye on the competition, but checking this out may be a worthy use of your time, there may be more of an opportunity for a higher house edge on JD than I would have thought.

Yep, plenty of innovation from DN, doog any plans for JD to copy implement some of these features? Not talking about the anime backgrounds & UI animation btw.

Re ppl choosing 3% HE over 1% HE, there is a higher bank roll available to play for on the 2% & 3% HE so it may be that, especially on the first day or two - now there's more investment spread out over the 3 options, or maybe ppl were doing Martis which took them in to the higher HE range for larger bets after a few losses playing on lower HE %.

I played at 3% HE right at the beginning as there wasn't much investment in then & max profit was like 1 ltc or something at 1% HE, now it's about 10 ltc at 1% HE & 100 ltc at 3% HE.

As neat as that site is, it boggles me that a 1-3% slider exists. A smart investor would just put money in the 1% because it gets far more play then 3%. regardless of the odds an investor gets a lot more investing 1 BTC in 1% with 1000 rolls than 1 BTC in 3% with 100 rolls. Not to mention JDs bank is significantly more than this site's. Unless a user wants to win thousands of BTC, why bother? especially since 99.99% of bets will be able to be covered by the usual 1%, it's a bad bet for investors anyway.

The BTC 3% has had 10.82 btc wagered so far, whereas the BTC 1% has had 0.68 btc wagered so far, therefor the 3% is actually getting far more play in money terms than the 1% atm.

With LTC it's about 1000 ltc wagered on 1% versus 500 ltc approx on 3%.

https://dicenow.com/#filter=.sitestats

If ppl wish to invest &/or bet in LTC it looks a good place for that & also the action for 3% HE BTC has brought investors by far the best return currently. They also have a simple UI option now instead of the anime.

misread that/ or it was different earlier on. Still doesn't make sense with the amount JD has.

[Otoh]

misread that/ or it was different earlier on. Still doesn't make sense with the amount JD has.

Most of the 3% HE betting was yesterday, but the previous days have been higher than the 1% too, you can see here: https://dicenow.com/#filter=.invest

I'm not sure what you find doesn't make sense, one could say the same for JD compared to SD when it started maybe, anyway it's good to see some further innovation in the dice world especially as it implements some of the features ppl have been requesting here for JD, I hope it does well, as the creator is from east Asia & is fluent in Chinese it will be interesting to see how things go when the site is translated & marketed there, my main interest is the ltc investing/gambling option & also trying out different kelly rates.

[Noitev]

misread that/ or it was different earlier on. Still doesn't make sense with the amount JD has.

Most of the 3% HE betting was yesterday, but the previous days have been higher than the 1% too, you can see here: https://dicenow.com/#filter=.invest

I'm not sure what you find doesn't make sense, one could say the same for JD compared to SD when it started maybe, anyway it's good to see some further innovation in the dice world especially as it implements some of the features ppl have been requesting here for JD, I hope it does well, as the creator is from east Asia & is fluent in Chinese it will be interesting to see how things go when the site is translated & marketed there, my main interest is the ltc investing/gambling option & also trying out different kelly rates.

I'm saying it doesn't make much sense because JD can cover much higher bets than the competition without having to resort to 3% house edge. Implementing LTC might work for JD though, but I'm not really a huge fan of it.

[shawshankinmate37927]

i caught your site cheating via ip tracking...is that acceptable to you? 

What does that even mean?  The only inputs to the roll algorithm are:

1) server seed
2) client seed
3) roll number (nonce)

Nothing about bet size, chance to win, or IP address.

Please, pick an option:

1) try to understand how the site works; if you need help, ask for it
2) stop talking about how the site works; you know nothing about it

If you still want to bet 10 BTC that bet size or IP address affects the number rolled, I am more than happy to take that bet.  I strongly suspect you don't have 10 BTC, given how much you cried when you lost 0.01 BTC on JD.

dooglus,

I'd like to understand a little more about the "provably fair" concept, if you don't mind.

Is the roll number (nonce) the same thing as "betid" and is this determined at the time of the roll?  Is it true that the server seed is known only by you and the client seed is known by you and the player?  You control the server seed and the player controls the client seed?

[Carnth]

I'd like to understand a little more about the "provably fair" concept, if you don't mind.

I'll try to help.

Is the roll number (nonce) the same thing as "betid" and is this determined at the time of the roll?

No, the betid is just an id to look up the bet when searching for it. It does not determine your roll.

You control the server seed and the player controls the client seed?

I'm sure dooglus has access to the server seed, but it is randomly generated. The client seed is also randomly generated, but the user can change it to whatever they like.


The roll is generated by a combo of the server seed, the client seed, AND the number of bets using that pair of seeds. All of this is explained by clicking the "Fair?" tab.


You can change the server seed (and client seed) at anytime after making 10 bets with the current seeds. Just click the "Randomize" button or the "P" key on your keyboard. When you do, a pop-up window will appear and reveal the server seed you were just using. It also show you the new client seed at which you are free to type in any number you like.

[dooglus]

Is the roll number (nonce) the same thing as "betid" and is this determined at the time of the roll?  Is it true that the server seed is known only by you and the client seed is known by you and the player?  You control the server seed and the player controls the client seed?

Carnth's answer is correct, but to make it shorter:

No, the nonce is 1 for your first bet with a particular pair of seeds, 2 for the 2nd, etc.

Other than that, yes, you understand it correctly.

Using the betid as an input to the algorithm would break provable fairness:  you make a big bet.  I calculate your roll.  You're going to win.  I don't want that, so I make a roll of my own to take your roll id and give you the next one.  I check again, you lose, so that's the roll you get.  That's unacceptable, so we use a nonce that only increments when *you* bet.

[ASICSRUS]

Looks like a new dice competitor with a slick design is now offering investors 1%, 2% or 3% house edge. Combined with leveraged investment with a kelly ranging from 0.25 to 10x.

Can we please get a custom kelly at least?  Being able to use leverage would reduce counterpart risk for investors, and would reduce the site owner from being a target of extortion/ransom/violence.

What's really amazing is that if you look at the number of bets and the amounts bet the 3% pool has a considerable amount of action.  I would not have thought this possible as it seems illogical why anyone would choose to shoot against a 3% house advantage rather than a 1% are higher limits really that attractive?

Dooglus, I know you keep an eye on the competition, but checking this out may be a worthy use of your time, there may be more of an opportunity for a higher house edge on JD than I would have thought.

Yep, plenty of innovation from DN, doog any plans for JD to copy implement some of these features? Not talking about the anime backgrounds & UI animation btw.

Re ppl choosing 3% HE over 1% HE, there is a higher bank roll available to play for on the 2% & 3% HE so it may be that, especially on the first day or two - now there's more investment spread out over the 3 options, or maybe ppl were doing Martis which took them in to the higher HE range for larger bets after a few losses playing on lower HE %.

I played at 3% HE right at the beginning as there wasn't much investment in then & max profit was like 1 ltc or something at 1% HE, now it's about 10 ltc at 1% HE & 100 ltc at 3% HE.

As neat as that site is, it boggles me that a 1-3% slider exists. A smart investor would just put money in the 1% because it gets far more play then 3%. regardless of the odds an investor gets a lot more investing 1 BTC in 1% with 1000 rolls than 1 BTC in 3% with 100 rolls. Not to mention JDs bank is significantly more than this site's. Unless a user wants to win thousands of BTC, why bother? especially since 99.99% of bets will be able to be covered by the usual 1%, it's a bad bet for investors anyway.

The BTC 3% has had 10.82 btc wagered so far, whereas the BTC 1% has had 0.68 btc wagered so far, therefor the 3% is actually getting far more play in money terms than the 1% atm.

With LTC it's about 1000 ltc wagered on 1% versus 500 ltc approx on 3%.

https://dicenow.com/#filter=.sitestats

If ppl wish to invest &/or bet in LTC it looks a good place for that & also the action for 3% HE BTC has brought investors by far the best return currently. They also have a simple UI option now instead of the anime.

LTC looks like a solid investment(flip) ? 

[shawshankinmate37927]

Using the betid as an input to the algorithm would break provable fairness: 

That's what I thought.  Thanks for the confirmation.

[ASICSRUS]

Is the roll number (nonce) the same thing as "betid" and is this determined at the time of the roll?  Is it true that the server seed is known only by you and the client seed is known by you and the player?  You control the server seed and the player controls the client seed?

Carnth's answer is correct, but to make it shorter:

No, the nonce is 1 for your first bet with a particular pair of seeds, 2 for the 2nd, etc.

Other than that, yes, you understand it correctly.

Using the betid as an input to the algorithm would break provable fairness:  you make a big bet.  I calculate your roll.  You're going to win.  I don't want that, so I make a roll of my own to take your roll id and give you the next one.  I check again, you lose, so that's the roll you get.  That's unacceptable, so we use a nonce that only increments when *you* bet.

do you think its possible to effect seed dominance? Can the secret seed override(be the determinate #) the other two seeds?   thx!

[integrity42]

Is it possible to ban ASICSRUS from this thread? he's just trolling and adding noise. It's off topic and useless discussion.

[Rannasha]

Is it possible to ban ASICSRUS from this thread? he's just trolling and adding noise. It's off topic and useless discussion.

It's not a self-moderated topic, so don't count on it. Meanwhile, there's the Ignore function.

[integrity42]

Last post in securities for me as I have determined that there is too much risk for me being in US at "investing" in JD, so I am posting some charts and suggestions and thoughts.  First if anyone wants the excel spreadsheet I am using to track hit me up in PM, I will send it to first trusted user.

** Also note while typing this someone did a pretty good job on JD getting 130ish coins out while playing 1% and below, so these stats are prior to that**

The site has been open for 117 days almost 1/3rd of a year

Charts
https://i.imgur.com/SxCbw7d.png - Since JD started
https://i.imgur.com/0nWdHow.png - Total wagered per day using Coindesk daily BPI in USD - closing in on 500 Mil USD
https://i.imgur.com/wEllYbI.png - Increase in site "invested" since 10/4/13
https://i.imgur.com/ZnJWNxG.png - Daily House % (basis of 1%) versus actually Daily Profit %
https://i.imgur.com/xnhazK8.png - USD Profit for site

Legality
First off its my belief that JD needs to become registered as a legal casino somewhere, Ultraplay.co http://ultraplay.co/costarica.html has locations and information in this regard that should be reviewed, including one in Canada http://ultraplay.co/kahwanake.html at an Indian reservation.  Now this does cost money ~$25,000 and I feel this should be paid for by site in a manner of ways.

1. Raising commission - even if temporarily above 10% to 20% to allow the extra 10% to cover legal fees.
2. Having the site take the next +200 coin profit day to pay for this initially
3. Having the 10 -20 largest "investors" lend the site the money at 5-10% interest to cover legal expenses.

Other sites have started registering this Bit777, Casinobitco.in and even Dragons Lair, and knowing those guys I think they would be willing to make suggestions on next step.  

Issues of not being Legal
Both Canada Government and US government will start looking into bitcoin gambling since Securities are already being pressured, and if you are going to start with a site JD is the one to hit, right now biggest and known with people winning and lossing close to a million USD.  I feel both Canada and US governments could seize JD bankroll with laws, for operating without license and within US and POSSIBLY with investment feature.  Even with Doog's emergency release the question is would it be able to be in time prior to a seizure.  With a legal license this issue greatly diminishes.


Safety of Cold Wallet


Assuming legal issues are handled, there is always the chance of thief (NOT ON DOOG but others),  Right now the site has almost $8.4 million dollars invested not including what is just in Balances either being gambled or used as a mobile wallet (something I have done in the past).  Doog and Deb while remaining private do somewhat lead very open lives, and Doog is the kind of person that if something was being done I dont think he could resist the thought of giving away wallet for life (I know worst case but people have done far more for far less).  The cold wallet needs to have 80-90% of it printed on paper wallet and be stored in bank vault safety security box, with a note on site saying 24-48 hours is needed for withdrawls.


Doog has 2 options right now imo


1.  GO BIG, Get legal casino license, raise commission hire programmers to help with interface and design, offer rewards jackpots/affliates, become the biggest bitcoin gambling site ever
2.  Keep it low key and try to let it run itself, dont do anything to site, raise commission to try to lower "Invested", try to get it about 1/3rd of the size it is - limit investments, lower max profit - whatever it is to contract the beast that is JD

** I think if he needs to make a choice and roll with it either way**

Things that are great about JD
1.  Its liquid so that you are not caught holding the bag on shares when they are dumped
2.  Its built itself an entire community

Things that are quick fixes
1.  Stop calling it investors - you are not investors you do not own the company you are bankrollers "lending" money (to gamble at +ev) to gain money
2.  Immediately change site from .com

Things to think about for Doog
So far Doog's commission I believe has crossed 800 BTC, this is to cover costs, and really to pay him for site design and time to operate, he included you into his baby consider him to be an exception to the rule here, he has given up much more financial gains in BTC than you realise to include others.

Honestly another competitor has taken Doog's idea and capitialized on it with Jackpots, Referrals, lower Max profit and most importantly true investors who have stock options, they reap much more rewards than Doog for a lot less hassle, imo.  Its still not to late for him to take this stance and reap the rewards.

"Investors" - Bankrollers
http://just-dice.blogspot.ca/2013/10/investment-amounts.html

The top 10-20 guys have the most to gain/lose right now, not just supporting the bankroll but the issues of not being in compliance.  The last 2 weeks average coins per day gained is +530.  These include 2 meltdowns in Mechs and in Kills.  And even taking them out the site right now is gaining +188 coins on average per day.

Looking at the top investor sitting at over 12.3k coins, its gaining him an incredible amount right now, on roughly double or triple the play the site was getting in mid to Late August.  As the price of BTC seems to be soaring the wagered in BTC will drop without increased marketing and gaining of players, since existing players will limit play.  

As an " investor" I would question remaining in at the levels you are currently in if the site does not head to GO BIG and makes ways to futher protect your coinage from not just gambling and future btc prices causing less play, but GOVERNMENT intervention.  

Did dooglus ever address / reply to this post?  I think given the growth of just-dice, it is now prudent to consult lawyers.

If a license is required, I'm 100% certain that all investors would be happy to take funds from the bankroll to pay legal fees.

Dooglus, can you comment on this?  As a large bankroller on the site, I would appreciate some feedback. Thanks.

[maqifrnswa]

Did dooglus ever address / reply to this post?  I think given the growth of just-dice, it is now prudent to consult lawyers.

If a license is required, I'm 100% certain that all investors would be happy to take funds from the bankroll to pay legal fees.

Dooglus, can you comment on this?  As a large bankroller on the site, I would appreciate some feedback. Thanks.

I haveno problem with paying for laywers, just don't take it from the bankroll - that will destroy investor confidence (and cause a run on the bank as people withdraw to avoid the tax). If doog ever dips his hand in the bankroll, the site might as well be dead.

On the other hand, I have no problem changing house edge or increasing commission to cover legal expenses/licensing. But once you become 100% legal, you literally get a target on your back from regulators - so it's a hard choice.

[malevolent]

But once you become 100% legal, you literally get a target on your back from regulators - so it's a hard choice.

Not worth it IMHO. Just look at what happened to BitInstant after they wanted to become "more compliant". Only a waste of time and money, with nothing in return.

[dooglus]

do you think its possible to effect seed dominance? Can the secret seed override(be the determinate #) the other two seeds?   thx!

Every change to the input of sha512 completely changes the output.  In other words both seeds and the nonce are "dominant".  Any small change in any of the three inputs completely changes the output, due to the "avalanche effect".

I'm glad to see that you're making an effort to understand the site's provably fairness.

Is it possible to ban ASICSRUS from this thread? he's just trolling and adding noise. It's off topic and useless discussion.

It's not.  When I created the JD threads I made a conscious decision not to make the threads self-moderated.  If the majority of comments are negative then it's probably because we're doing something wrong.  The fix for that isn't to delete negative comments, but is to fix whatever's wrong.

There are going to be a few crazies who won't listen to reason but they're easily ignored on an individual basis.  In the case of ASCISRUS I'm not even sure he's trolling.  He's angry and irrational, but his recent posts seem to suggest he's not a hopeless case.

[ASICSRUS]

do you think its possible to effect seed dominance? Can the secret seed override(be the determinate #) the other two seeds?   thx!

Every change to the input of sha512 completely changes the output.  In other words both seeds and the nonce are "dominant".  Any small change in any of the three inputs completely changes the output, due to the "Horst Feistel".

I'm glad to see that you're making an effort to understand the site's provably fairness.

Is it possible to ban ASICSRUS from this thread? he's just trolling and adding noise. It's off topic and useless discussion.

It's not.  When I created the JD threads I made a conscious decision not to make the threads self-moderated.  If the majority of comments are negative then it's probably because we're doing something wrong.  The fix for that isn't to delete negative comments, but is to fix whatever's wrong.

There are going to be a few crazies who won't listen to reason but they're easily ignored on an individual basis.  In the case of ASCISRUS I'm not even sure he's trolling.  He's angry and irrational, but his recent posts seem to suggest he's not a hopeless case.

avalanche effect yeah thats what i saw happen ..lol but in all seriousness Horst Feistel prolly worked with people from my camp! I appreciate you being engaged and willing to shed some light. The foundation of freedom of speech is why bitcoin exists today imho!   ez

[dooglus]

Important reminder:

If you're going to deposit large amounts of coins on the site, it is a good idea to:

* set a long, random, unique password
* enable 2FA

We recently had a very large deposit into a new account with no password and no 2FA.

Be careful out there!

[dooglus]

We recently had a very large deposit into a new account with no password and no 2FA.

I'm away from home for a few days.  When I received the large deposit, I waited for an hour or so to see if it was going to be immediately withdrawn.  It wasn't, so I sent it to the cold wallet.

Now its depositor is attempting to withdraw it from the hot wallet.  There aren't enough funds there, so the hot wallet is going dry, over and over.

I've no way of contacting him other than hoping he reads this post.  I'll be back at the cold wallet in a few days, and can cash you out in full then.  In the mean time please don't worry - your funds are safely stored offline.

[ASICSRUS]

We recently had a very large deposit into a new account with no password and no 2FA.

I'm away from home for a few days.  When I received the large deposit, I waited for an hour or so to see if it was going to be immediately withdrawn.  It wasn't, so I sent it to the cold wallet.

Now its depositor is attempting to withdraw it from the hot wallet.  There aren't enough funds there, so the hot wallet is going dry, over and over.

I've no way of contacting him other than hoping he reads this post.  I'll be back at the cold wallet in a few days, and can cash you out in full then.  In the mean time please don't worry - your funds are safely stored offline.

dude it's mine!

#offtopic(must see)===>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L0mJJE_Nac

[sgravina]

We recently had a very large deposit into a new account with no password and no 2FA.

I'm away from home for a few days.  When I received the large deposit, I waited for an hour or so to see if it was going to be immediately withdrawn.  It wasn't, so I sent it to the cold wallet.

Now its depositor is attempting to withdraw it from the hot wallet.  There aren't enough funds there, so the hot wallet is going dry, over and over.

I've no way of contacting him other than hoping he reads this post.  I'll be back at the cold wallet in a few days, and can cash you out in full then.  In the mean time please don't worry - your funds are safely stored offline.

Yeah.  Sorry those are my funds.  I was in a coffee shop playing dice.  While I was off for a bathroom break somebody used my laptop and deposited 2000 bitcoins in a brand new Just-Dice account.  I didn't realize it until after I had cleared my cookies and lost the secret link.

Could you just send them to my other account?  I don't remember that one either but I can make a new one if necessary.

I don't mind waiting till you get back.

Sam