[ANN] Bitfury ASIC sales in EU and Europe

[itod]

And that will be the end of bitcoin because people are going to loose interest. When community dies bitcoin will follow. I wish them luck selling their 'hard earned' coins to themselves. Before this happens They will make a good money for sure
RIP
That process has been started already and it is a matter of timing for it to end

You have put the equality sign in community=miners. It's just a small part of the community, in fact it will be a big plus for a BTC to get rid off the "invest X in obscure hardware and earn X*Y quick" mentality. Can't wait for the day when you invest X in miner and earn 10-15% BTC a year, it will be a great sign that BTC is mature and stable.

[xstr8guy]

If you understand this and realize that hardware will ROI only, when btc price rises, then you must accept that this hardware is just stupid to buy. This is why punin's statement, that everyone got ROI is not accurate.

Those who bought our september-october units for ~6500€ are still making over 200€ per day in BTC. Please explain your math.

Ok here is my math:

Someone decides to invest in bitcoin. He either buys hardware or bare bitcoins. He buys hardware for 50 btc or USD/EUR equivalent. The hardware mines back 25 bitcoins until energy price parity is reached.

If the price rises by 500%, he has 250% ROI, if he decided to mine, and 500% ROI if he decided to keep bitcoins.

If the price drops to 10%, he has lost 95% of his investment, if he decided to keep bitcoins he lost only 90%.

If the price remains at initial value, he has lost 50% with mining and nothing, if he kept bitcoins.

In addition there is electricity cost, administration of hardware, risk of failure and less liquidity (look up opportunity costs, good hint). Well you might compare mining to keeping USD/EUR, but this is not an investment...

And don't get me wrong, I would do the same as you. If enough people keep buying hardware that does not ROI, sell it overpriced. It is ok to me. But on the other hand, allow us to evaluate the hardware investment.

Oh this tired old "buy and hold" bullshit!  Who the f&@k actually does this?  Most investors in Bitcoin are buying high and selling low and losing their asses.

Why does everyone who posts this crap always thinks they are some genius with all of the answers?  Please stay out of the hardware forum.  Your "genius" means nothing in here.  Please do us all a favor and go back to the economics/speculation forum and post your wisdom where it's welcome.

[rupy]

One thing is interesting about what you say, for every norwegian millionaire there are thousands of loosers giving their money to the norweigan millionaire. And everything under the sun is a pyramid scheme, think about it, you'll see.

Miners and speculators work hand in hand, the one is impossible without the other. Speculators buy miners product so miners can pay electricity bills and hardware.

Maybe we should try to not spit in the hand that feeds us, that goes for both speculators and hardware manufacturers.

One simple rule for companies is to never be in the middle of a supply chain, which is precisely what miners are, we are dependent on hardware on one hand and speculators on the other.

But the beauty of mining is risk management, it's the only way to participate with moderate risk, we got hedging on both ends.

I buy hardware with mined bitcoins every bubble / ASIC generation (funny they mostly coencide or maybe it's just preorder date span that covers it), just enough to stay in the game. Now I would need alot more hardware to heat my house, but it's too expensive. We can't go smaller with the chips we have, 0.5W/GH seems to be hard to beat, now it's horizontal scaling which means more power consumption, only at the end of that we might see the price of bitcoin stabilize.

Right now the price is high if you look at miners revenue, hell with these figures I can quit my day job.

Difficulty will go up and price, well, will go up too I hope. Every bubble the circulation of coins raises the expected value, I think that will never change unless something better comes along.

It's all about the global debt bubble and real energy prices (inflation and population adjusted) really, and looking at those bitcoin has a long way to go even in the face of the generation of coins requiring energy catch-22.

Bottom line, if you heat yourself with mining gear you can't loose.

[prawda]

Oh this tired old "buy and hold" bullshit!  Who the f&@k actually does this?  Most investors in Bitcoin are buying high and selling low and losing their asses.

Why does everyone who posts this crap always thinks they are some genius with all of the answers?  Please stay out of the hardware forum.  Your "genius" means nothing in here.  Please do us all a favor and go back to the economics/speculation forum and post your wisdom where it's welcome.

Well I have bitfury miners myself. That is why you find me in hardware forum. Can you explain me how most investors can be buying high and selling low when bitcoin price is rising 95% of the time.

[allinvain]

Oh this tired old "buy and hold" bullshit!  Who the f&@k actually does this?  Most investors in Bitcoin are buying high and selling low and losing their asses.

Why does everyone who posts this crap always thinks they are some genius with all of the answers?  Please stay out of the hardware forum.  Your "genius" means nothing in here.  Please do us all a favor and go back to the economics/speculation forum and post your wisdom where it's welcome.

Well I have bitfury miners myself. That is why you find me in hardware forum. Can you explain me how most investors can be buying high and selling low when bitcoin price is rising 95% of the time.

He's referring to market timing. Most people are shit at timing the market (don't blame them, even the wall-street pros are the same), so if you don't get shaken out of the market during the mini crashes that eventually occur you will end up making profit _IF_ you hold on to your coins. In the end if you got big balls you could just use dollar cost averaging and buy and hold. Look at when price went to almost below $1. If you bought then knowing full well that the price could've tanked even lower you could be a multi millionaire today. The overall trend for btc seems to be UP and most miners would've made a bigger return had they not bought hardware. The issue is that most miners are cash poor so they did not have a lot of capital in fiat to put into mining hardware, so they were forced to pay for that hardware with btc. This is kind of like being bullish on gold and wanting to invest in gold mining companies but since you have no cash you sell all your jewelry or gold coins and bars to buy gold stocks in the hope of getting more physical gold later on.

[GandalfG]

If anybody want sell "old" not PCIE style M-Boards I want buy 2-3 pieces.
PM me offer.

[xstr8guy]

Oh this tired old "buy and hold" bullshit!  Who the f&@k actually does this?  Most investors in Bitcoin are buying high and selling low and losing their asses.

Why does everyone who posts this crap always thinks they are some genius with all of the answers?  Please stay out of the hardware forum.  Your "genius" means nothing in here.  Please do us all a favor and go back to the economics/speculation forum and post your wisdom where it's welcome.

Well I have bitfury miners myself. That is why you find me in hardware forum. Can you explain me how most investors can be buying high and selling low when bitcoin price is rising 95% of the time.

Because it's natural for the unsophisticated investor to panic sell at every market drop.

Sorry for my harsh words above.  But the "buy and hold" argument really frustrates me because it clogs every hardware thread. Everyone  knows the theory already so it becomes redundant noise.

[rupy]

I thought I read punin was going to teach some new staff and update the store this week, did he delete this post?

[KfrogCT]

I would also like to know if he had made any progress on re-stocking the V1.2 H-Boards or V3 M-boards. Seems like everything is at a stand still.

[gingernuts]

Bump - it's all gone very quiet on here

Punin - I hope you and your team get a good break over Christmas, but I also really hope you'll be back with bucket loads of chips for sale in the new year!

[GandalfG]

No news, no Christmas  gift and price cut.
Some Grinch stole our Christmas   ? 

[gingernuts]

Happy New Year bump! 

Any sign of cheap chips coming our way in Europe any time soon? There is talk on the US Bitfury thread of $5/chip for Feb delivery...

[rammy2k2]

im sorry too this company went in silent mode, but on the other hand, they are just re-sellers, we cant ask too much from them

[_owowo_]

Ya, happy holidays Bitfury. https://i.imgur.com/GONOTpN.jpg

[fractal02]

Punin where are you !?!

Megabigpower (Dave) drop the price.
Price is more attractive now.

400GH Overclockable Bitcoin Miner Kit => $6,400.00
200GH Overclockable Bitcoin Miner Kit  => $3,200.00
100GH Overclockable Bitcoin Miner Kit  => $1,600.00
Old Style V1.2 H-card => $375.00
New Style V2.2 H-card => $400.00

We need to fill our rig. 

Are you still in business or not anymore?
Please let us know

[baloo_kiev]

Megabigpower (Dave) drop the price.

, which still sucks though. Say goodbye to ROI.

[punin]

Happy New Year 2014!

I have been extremely busy and on vacation and hence it's been mighty quiet here. We just got old-style H-cards back in stock, so I reopen sales. More to follow together with a longer report!

[eestimees]

Happy New Year 2014!

I have been extremely busy and on vacation and hence it's been mighty quiet here. We just got old-style H-cards back in stock, so I reopen sales. More to follow together with a longer report!

Thanks punin!

problem: entering EU vat for my country, it says it is invalid, tried different companies with different vat, w/o country code..

EDIT: looks like ec.europa.eu VAT validation service is down....

[ShadesOfMarble]

He's referring to market timing. Most people are shit at timing the market (don't blame them, even the wall-street pros are the same), so if you don't get shaken out of the market during the mini crashes that eventually occur you will end up making profit _IF_ you hold on to your coins.

So buying mining equipment helps you with "market timing" because your coins are locked for months? And if(!) you get your mining hardware the coins are slowly dropping into your wallet again. Maybe I should offer an "I'm holding your coins"-service for people who are unable to hold onto their coins.

The issue is that most miners are cash poor so they did not have a lot of capital in fiat to put into mining hardware, so they were forced to pay for that hardware with btc.

What's the point of this statement? This discussion has nothing to do whether you are poor or filthy rich. You have an amount X which you can either invest in BTC directly or in mining hardware. If you have already have an amount Y of BTC you can keep them or sell them. (Buying mining hardware is equivalent to selling them.). It does not matter if you have 1 BTC and 1 EUR on your bank account or 1000 BTC and 1000 EUR.

This is kind of like being bullish on gold and wanting to invest in gold mining companies but since you have no cash you sell all your jewelry or gold coins and bars to buy gold stocks in the hope of getting more physical gold later on.

It's just stupid. I did it myself and all I can say now it's just stupid*. Mining hardware that does not ROI in BTC does not make any sense, as it has been stated multiple times. See the post by prawda with this very simple calculations. Yeah, it's that easy. Don't agree? Show some calculations that prove him false.


* I made a ROI of 200+% on my Bitfury investment. So why am I advising against buying hardware? Because I don't want the network to grow so I can have more profit? Nah, that's not going to work. There are so many (semi-)private mines (100 TH project, ghash.io etc etc) which deploy mining hardware at cost, it's useless to convince consumers to not buy mining hardware. It's because I'm genuinely convinced current mining hardware offers are a rip-off (now even more than before the race to 1000$/BTC). Why buy mining hardware now that will only produce 30-40% of the BTC you could have if you just bought BTC directly. It does not make any sense. Not at all.

[greenlion]

Why buy mining hardware now that will only produce 30-40% of the BTC you could have if you just bought BTC directly. It does not make any sense. Not at all.

Mining hedges against price stagnation by producing modest BTC income (possibly with principal risk entirely in BTC) with reasonably easy-to-calculate assumptions about power consumption and pessimistic difficulty projections.

Not everyone is a competent technical trader, and mining allows you to accomplish frequent modest profit-taking.

It only doesn't make sense because not everyone has the same goals in this entire financial enterprise as you, just a blanket statement about buying and holding is projecting your own objectives onto people who may have entirely different objectives over completely different timeframes with a desire to be exposed to different amounts of risk.