-

[grnbrg]

@grnbrg, no offense, but we do need to hear these responses directly from Lab_Rat; seeing how he responds, how often he responds, his tone, his transparency, attention to detail, whether he tends to change his mind over time, whether he addresses all concerns in a timely manner or if he sidesteps ones he doesn't want to deal with ... these all help paint a picture of who he is, what kind of company this will likely be, and the sort of service investors can expect in future dealings with him.

Until he provides some tangible information about himself, these indirect 'tells' are really all we have to go on to build some sense of "trust". He really needs to deal with this directly and personally; it is just part of trying to advertise one's business to potential investors. Nothing more than common sense and business etiquette, really.

Asking someone else to be a mouthpiece because he doesn't want to take the time to do it himself does not make a particularly good impression.

I understand.  And I'm also still feeling out what I've been asked to do (and shoehorn in beside my day job)....

With BFL, my role was pretty straightforward - just consolidate what news was posted in various places into one location for people to monitor, and answer questions with "BFL said this, here." rather than speculate.  Lab_Rat has asked me to represent him publicly and officially, and I need to figure out what that role is.

That said, I know he's busy doing the behind-the-scenes stuff, meeting with lawyers and vendors to make sure his endeavour gets off the ground.  And I know from watching the attacks on BFL (deserved or otherwise) that if a question is unanswered for more than a couple of hours, it gets a very negative appearance....  I think I can answer some stuff promptly, and Lab_Rat will confirm (or overrule) when he gets time.



grnbrg.

[BitSugar]

From what I can see, he is sincere in what he is doing, and is taking pains to do it correctly and transparently.  I will see if I can get some more information to post to answer some more questions.

grnbrg.

@grnbrg - you should stop making emotional statements. These are meaningless and only go to further discredit you. If he is sincere or transparent include a fact or two about it (or link to a post where you do so to avoid duplicate explanations). Telling people to trust him without providing specific facts is much the same as the methods of Piers Morgan on gun control. It will only leave you looking like a fool and with no power-base.

"I will see if I can get some more information to post to answer some more questions."  
- "I will see if I can get" does not exude confidence. If you want people to respect you -> you must be more finite "I will get" & you must come through as promised. No side-skirting anything.
- If you are not confident of your ability to get info from labrat then how confident can we be in you (with your partial understanding) & him (with his inability to directly speak to the public)?

[grnbrg]

I've been exchanging some email with Lab_Rat...

He indicates that of the current capital from bond sales, around 80% will go into hardware purchases.  The rest for overhead and expenses.  (Secure data centre, lawyers, etc)

Of the hardware bought, 25% will be for the company, and mine for expenses and new hardware acquisitions.  The remaining 75% will pay customer dividends.

The 100MH/s hash rate posted was intended to be seen as a minimum.  The actual hash rate associated with a bond may in fact end up considerably higher, depending on what deals can be made.  The initial numbers were based on a conservative estimate, and BFL gear.  Given that BitFury is in the picture, it is possible that that this number may be much higher, depending on what that 80% of bond sales will buy.

Lab_Rat is meeting with (I think) the BitFury rep right now.  He will be back later to confirm the above.



grnbrg.

[BitSugar]

I think I can answer some stuff promptly, and Lab_Rat will confirm (or overrule) when he gets time.

grnbrg.

There you go again with your confidence building statements....

So you are establishing NOW that we cannot trust what you post about Lab_Rat as a hired spokesman of Lab_Rat (via disclaimer about confirming or overruling), yet we should make investment choices based upon the "facts" that you present, meanwhile the official "fact" confirmation by Lab_Rat may or may not take place on a fact-by-fact basis. In other words we cannot trust anything you say unless if each statement is confirmed by Lab_Rat, yet you are the only one making statements.

grnbrg, what is your purpose again?
- To act as the mainstream media to spin propaganda for whoever controls the target profit-making industry/company?
-- To be able to tell truth & out-right lies mixed together with no legal accountability.
-- To deceive the public into thinking that they should be listening to your opinion (though a system that allows you to lie) rather than going directly to the target profit-making industry/company to get the real answers (who will be held accountable for their responses as they have no scapegoat)?

Come on. We the people have seen this game played many times before & we have had enough.

[Bargraphics]

I think I can answer some stuff promptly, and Lab_Rat will confirm (or overrule) when he gets time.

grnbrg.

There you go again with your confidence building statements....

So you are establishing NOW that we cannot trust what you post about Lab_Rat as a hired spokesman of Lab_Rat (via disclaimer about confirming or overruling), yet we should make investment choices based upon the "facts" that you present, meanwhile the official "fact" confirmation by Lab_Rat may or may not take place on a fact-by-fact basis. In other words we cannot trust anything you say unless if each statement is confirmed by Lab_Rat, yet you are the only one making statements.

grnbrg, what is your purpose again?
- To act as the mainstream media to spin propaganda for whoever controls the target profit-making industry/company?
-- To be able to tell truth & out-right lies mixed together with no legal accountability.
-- To deceive the public into thinking that they should be listening to your opinion (though a system that allows you to lie) rather than going directly to the target profit-making industry/company to get the real answers (who will be held accountable for their responses as they have no scapegoat)?

Come on. We the people have seen this game played many times before & we have had enough.

That's how you read into that?

Huge companies have PR/Marketing firms and they sometimes make a mistake or two which the CEO usually puts out a statement to correct. It doesn't happen much but it can. I saw nothing in his statement that would reflect that he isn't a reputable source for LabRat mining.

[Lab_Rat]

I was meeting with the individual who is managing the install of proper AC and electricity to the warehouse.  This will be done and dealt with before any hardware is received.  I will be speaking with Dave again today to see how things are progressing and get some insight into when I should be expecting some good news from Bitfury.  

For those of you who are questioning my ability to run the business I would like to state that I am very technical and good with numbers.  That does not make someone capable of running a business and intelligent people will admit what they can and can't do.  This is why I have taken my own personal money and invested it up front in securing a lawyer and accountant to help manage the business and funds accordingly.  I have an electrical engineer available, that will be inspecting the warehouse after all work is completed and before the hardware arrives.  In order to get the hardware up and running immediately upon arrival, all of this work will be completed and ready to go.

[grnbrg]

@BitSugar:  Point taken.  I do need to work on my delivery.

I expect to do largely what I have done with BFL:  Consolidate official information on the LRM_News twitter feed, and answer questions where I can find them about the mining company.  I don't yet have all the answers on hand, but that will change.

I don't yet have much history on this forum, but I've built a very good reputation on BFL's forum of honesty and accuracy.  I intend to continue in that vein.



grnbrg.

[BitSugar]

I think I can answer some stuff promptly, and Lab_Rat will confirm (or overrule) when he gets time.

grnbrg.

There you go again with your confidence building statements....

So you are establishing NOW that we cannot trust what you post about Lab_Rat as a hired spokesman of Lab_Rat (via disclaimer about confirming or overruling), yet we should make investment choices based upon the "facts" that you present, meanwhile the official "fact" confirmation by Lab_Rat may or may not take place on a fact-by-fact basis. In other words we cannot trust anything you say unless if each statement is confirmed by Lab_Rat, yet you are the only one making statements.

grnbrg, what is your purpose again?
- To act as the mainstream media to spin propaganda for whoever controls the target profit-making industry/company?
-- To be able to tell truth & out-right lies mixed together with no legal accountability.
-- To deceive the public into thinking that they should be listening to your opinion (though a system that allows you to lie) rather than going directly to the target profit-making industry/company to get the real answers (who will be held accountable for their responses as they have no scapegoat)?

Come on. We the people have seen this game played many times before & we have had enough.

That's how you read into that?

Huge companies have PR/Marketing firms and they sometimes make a mistake or two which the CEO usually puts out a statement to correct. It doesn't happen much but it can. I saw nothing in his statement that would reflect that he isn't a reputable source for LabRat mining.

"That's how you read into that?"
- It was a logical analysis of wording. Time is of the essence for everyone so why should there be any questions of "fact" reliability or emotional jargon that doesn't need to be there?
- "Lab_Rat will confirm (or overrule) when he gets time." - Shouldn't this be done before grnbrg posts "facts" about the Lab_Rat operation? The first recall of posted "facts" will splinter grnbrg's reputation as the reliability of the Lab_Rat system will come into question.
- I am not leaning to either side - for or against - this security at this time as it is still in its introduction phase. Long-term it may shape up. Free markets allow businesses to launch @ any level of development, and logically the bitcoin economy allows for the minimum before launch. When interest arises, plans can change & using the power of the crowd to give the crowd what it wants is the long-term goal of the free market.

"Huge companies have PR/Marketing firms"
- Yes, but this is a small company with a relatively simple business model & not too many things that need to be reworded/remarketed to make the public feel better about it. If Lab_Rat just posted complicated spreadsheets & long word documents with plans, data & analysis -> then the crowd would decipher it (without any need for a PR or Marketing firm to act as an intermediary for the information).

[BitSugar]

@BitSugar:  Point taken.  I do need to work on my delivery.

I expect to do largely what I have done with BFL:  Consolidate official information on the LRM_News twitter feed, and answer questions where I can find them about the mining company.  I don't yet have all the answers on hand, but that will change.

I don't yet have much history on this forum, but I've built a very good reputation on BFL's forum of honesty and accuracy.  I intend to continue in that vein.

grnbrg.

Thanks grnbrg,

You should add an interactive FAQ section on http://labratmining.com/. Similar to Stack Overflow. Then all questions are in one place & the stockholders can vote up the most important ones. This would definitely remove a lot of potential hassle.

[Lab_Rat]

I have my own personal documents, let me work on something I can release to the public in the coming days.  I will not be including BTC/USD speculation as that is impossible to speculate on from hour to hour.  I will however include many scenarios of difficulty, as well as different quantities of bonds sold.

The website is a work in progress and will have more readily available forms of delivering information as time goes on.

[||bit]

I've been exchanging some email with Lab_Rat...

He indicates that of the current capital from bond sales, around 80% will go into hardware purchases.  The rest for overhead and expenses.  (Secure data centre, lawyers, etc)

Of the hardware bought, 25% will be for the company, and mine for expenses and new hardware acquisitions.  The remaining 75% will pay customer dividends.

The 100MH/s hash rate posted was intended to be seen as a minimum.  The actual hash rate associated with a bond may in fact end up considerably higher, depending on what deals can be made.  The initial numbers were based on a conservative estimate, and BFL gear.  Given that BitFury is in the picture, it is possible that that this number may be much higher, depending on what that 80% of bond sales will buy.

Lab_Rat is meeting with (I think) the BitFury rep right now.  He will be back later to confirm the above.



grnbrg.

The way I look at these numbers, what this should equate to is that dividends would then end up reflecting about 60% efficiency of a situation where a person bought and managed his/her own hardware.
That is, bonds are bought with funds of quantity X.
20% * X = initial expenses.
80% * X = initial hardware purchases.
75% x initial hardware = bond holders dividends.

80% x 75% = 60%

Therefore, 60% of ALL coins mined by Lab-Rat-Mining are straight dividends.

Using BFL minirigs as a baseline: One BFL SC minirig is 500GH for $23,000 (or 500,000MH for $23,000).
That equates to 21.7MH/$.
60% of this hash power/cost efficiency would be:
60% * 21.7 MH/$ = ~13.0MH/$

Initial lowest priced purchases of bonds are approximate as 100MH/$15 or ~6.7MH/$

If hardware was in hand, the numbers given of 100MH/bond then are very conservative. Straight numbers indicate bonds should perform at 200MH/bond (where the bonds are initially bought at least price of BTC.15). BitFury prices would be even better.

This of course does not take into account what the difficulty will be when hardware is actually placed online. This is why it is important to secure good deals and delivery times. It seems to me that Lab Rat's priority should be to do everything he can to acquire hardware cheaper and faster. And dividend numbers is what will really drive the purchase of future bonds.

[Lab_Rat]

I've been exchanging some email with Lab_Rat...

He indicates that of the current capital from bond sales, around 80% will go into hardware purchases.  The rest for overhead and expenses.  (Secure data centre, lawyers, etc)

Of the hardware bought, 25% will be for the company, and mine for expenses and new hardware acquisitions.  The remaining 75% will pay customer dividends.

The 100MH/s hash rate posted was intended to be seen as a minimum.  The actual hash rate associated with a bond may in fact end up considerably higher, depending on what deals can be made.  The initial numbers were based on a conservative estimate, and BFL gear.  Given that BitFury is in the picture, it is possible that that this number may be much higher, depending on what that 80% of bond sales will buy.

Lab_Rat is meeting with (I think) the BitFury rep right now.  He will be back later to confirm the above.



grnbrg.

The way I look at these numbers, what this should equate to is that dividends would then end up reflecting about 60% efficiency of a situation where a person bought and managed his/her own hardware.
That is, bonds are bought with funds of quantity X.
20% * X = initial expenses.
80% * X = initial hardware purchases.
75% x initial hardware = bond holders dividends.

80% x 75% = 60%

Therefore, 60% of ALL coins mined by Lab-Rat-Mining are straight dividends.

Using BFL minirigs as a baseline: One BFL SC minirig is 500GH for $23,000 (or 500,000MH for $23,000).
That equates to 21.7MH/$.
60% of this hash power/cost efficiency would be:
60% * 21.7 MH/$ = ~13.0MH/$

Initial lowest priced purchases of bonds are approximate as 100MH/$15 or ~6.7MH/$

If hardware was in hand, the numbers given of 100MH/bond then are very conservative. Straight numbers indicate bonds should perform at 200MH/bond (where the bonds are initially bought at least price of BTC.15). BitFury prices would be even better.

This of course does not take into account what the difficulty will be when hardware is actually placed online. This is why it is important to secure good deals and delivery times. It seems to me that Lab Rat's priority should be to do everything he can to acquire hardware cheaper and faster. And dividend numbers is what will really drive the purchase of future bonds.

Thank you for taking all factors into consideration as I have done the same. I would like to correct you on one point though. Its not 60% of coins mined that goes to the customers. Its 100% of coins mined with hardware purchased using 60% of bond funds. Some of the company's mining dividends will go toward raising the total Hashrate though so some of the money reserved is still working for investors.  You mentioned that the numbers become much more appealing with the use of BitFury's numbers. Although BitFury's numbers are nice I dont believe anyone should put their trust in a single manufacturer at this point. So please consider a combination of BitFury and Butterfly Labs at this time. On top of my contact with BitFury I have also begun securing June and July 2012 MR orders and some August ship date BitFury equipment from individuals in the community I trust. I appear to have 3-5 TH lined up as of this moment that will likely be delivered soon to those original purchasers. I will be going out to pick up this equipment and purchase it in person.

I understand that the sooner dividends are paid the better for everyone and I'm taking that very seriously.

[VinceSamios]

I'm confident as soon as the first dividend hits, the remaining shares will be eaten up.

[bitman442]

I do not understand why everyone is fixated on the initial 100 Mh/s estimate. It is an estimate of the initial hashrate per share and will grow just as Asicminer's does/has albeit probably not at the same rate. When I first looked into Asicminer everyone was screaming about how only an idiot would buy into something that gets you around 56 Mh/s per share (if my memory serves me correctly). I'm sure glad I was one of those idiots.

[Deprived]

I do not understand why everyone is fixated on the initial 100 Mh/s estimate. It is an estimate of the initial hashrate per share and will grow just as Asicminer's does/has albeit probably not at the same rate. When I first looked into Asicminer everyone was screaming about how only an idiot would buy into something that gets you around 56 Mh/s per share (if my memory serves me correctly). I'm sure glad I was one of those idiots.

Difference is with ASICMINER you owned shares - and were entitled to growth in hardware.

Here it's neither a bond nor a share - and the contract gives you no rights to anything other than the 100 MH/s.  If he wanted to take a defined percentage of profit then he could have written the contract to do that.  He didn't - so obviously he doesn't want a fixed percentage of profit.  Relying on anything the contract doesn't grant you is just terrible practice.  When someone writes a contract giving very little assume that's all you get.  If you wanted to rely on charity then we could skip the whole securities thing, just send him BTC direct and get back whatever he felt like giving.

[MPOE-PR]

I agree with grnbrg, I see it as a high risk high reward thing - just like BTC generally.

No, this offering is NOT high risk and high reward "just like Bitcoin". This is high risk and high reward just like an internet scam. Bitcoin is high risk and high reward on an entirely different level and in an entirely different way. The inability to make that difference marks you as one of those to stfu and lurk moar.

Admitting for a second you're not being willfully stupid, ie a sock shilling this nonsense (which is rather the more likely explanation), the above confusion is exactly what stupid people do and scammers encourage them to do: mix up very unlike things.

@Lab_Rat has offered to pay me to answer questions...  There goes my credibility.     (For the record, I've risked around $5k (dollars) with LRM.  Not a lot, but not an insignificant amount, either.)

I've watched him work the BFL forums since October last year

It's good to know that's the function of that scam's forums: brewing the next generation of you people.

And more generally, a notice to all the scumbags circling BTC : I don't care that you're poor, I don't care if you're desperate, I don't care if you're 'Ndrangheta or the Gambinos or the Bonanos or the Russians or whoever the fuck else. Pack it and move. This is your only warning, and quite frankly I have no ideea why warnings are even necessary. Bitcoin is not for idiots. That means you.

[VinceSamios]

trolly mc troller trolling

I think my point is - you are just a troll... there are too many whingey little whiney paranoid bitches involved in bitcoin. As far as I'm concerned Lab_Rat is pretty well respected in the industry/community - sure he might do a pirate on us all (except we know his real name, and where he lives), but these are the risks we accept when we invest in something like this. Not understanding the risk is stupidy, not having the intelligence to intelligently take the risk.

Someone would have to be fkn stupid to attempt to defraud a community of paranoid libertarians, druggies and drug dealers...

So my risk reward analysis goes something like this..... 50:50 chance this thing could turn into nothing - if it turns into something my return will be about 20x (based on history) - am I prepared to assume a 50% risk for a 2000% ROI? Hells yeah... even if you mince those numbers around, the odds are still looking pretty good.

[Atruk]

trolly mc troller trolling

...(except we know his real name, and where he lives)

...Someone would have to be fkn stupid to attempt to defraud a community of paranoid libertarians, druggies and drug dealers...

Except for the whole part where Trendon Shavers is Pirateat40 and all of his information plastered everywhere.

Still aside from that Perpetual mining things (not quite bond, not quite shares) don't seem to ever have that sort of ROI even when they are honest.

[crotchwaft]

The way I look at these numbers, what this should equate to is that dividends would then end up reflecting about 60% efficiency of a situation where a person bought and managed his/her own hardware.
That is, bonds are bought with funds of quantity X.
20% * X = initial expenses.
80% * X = initial hardware purchases.
75% x initial hardware = bond holders dividends.

80% x 75% = 60%

Therefore, 60% of ALL coins mined by Lab-Rat-Mining are straight dividends.

Using BFL minirigs as a baseline: One BFL SC minirig is 500GH for $23,000 (or 500,000MH for $23,000).
That equates to 21.7MH/$.
60% of this hash power/cost efficiency would be:
60% * 21.7 MH/$ = ~13.0MH/$

Initial lowest priced purchases of bonds are approximate as 100MH/$15 or ~6.7MH/$

If hardware was in hand, the numbers given of 100MH/bond then are very conservative. Straight numbers indicate bonds should perform at 200MH/bond (where the bonds are initially bought at least price of BTC.15). BitFury prices would be even better.

This of course does not take into account what the difficulty will be when hardware is actually placed online. This is why it is important to secure good deals and delivery times. It seems to me that Lab Rat's priority should be to do everything he can to acquire hardware cheaper and faster. And dividend numbers is what will really drive the purchase of future bonds.

I'd like to add that since every second counts in this mining race, I doubt there's any possibility of me being able to secure new hardware faster than someone like Lab Rat, who can now make giant orders, and probably get a jump on the order date, plus get discounts for buying a large volume.
So, he can most likely get it faster and cheaper, which are both very important factors that should be included in the calculations (but we'll have to wait and see for some data).

[||bit]

Thank you for taking all factors into consideration as I have done the same. I would like to correct you on one point though. Its not 60% of coins mined that goes to the customers. Its 100% of coins mined with hardware purchased using 60% of bond funds. Some of the company's mining dividends will go toward raising the total Hashrate though so some of the money reserved is still working for investors.  You mentioned that the numbers become much more appealing with the use of BitFury's numbers. Although BitFury's numbers are nice I dont believe anyone should put their trust in a single manufacturer at this point. So please consider a combination of BitFury and Butterfly Labs at this time. On top of my contact with BitFury I have also begun securing June and July 2012 MR orders and some August ship date BitFury equipment from individuals in the community I trust. I appear to have 3-5 TH lined up as of this moment that will likely be delivered soon to those original purchasers. I will be going out to pick up this equipment and purchase it in person.

I understand that the sooner dividends are paid the better for everyone and I'm taking that very seriously.

Look into MrTeal's project. If he pulls it off, he will have an as competitive as BitFury offer going on. You'd do better to order the chips though...if you can get the discounts.