Butterfly Labs shipping 300 units a day

[Loredo]

No, you can blame that on Tom.  He's the one who posted complete nonsense as far as specs go.  There was nothing for BFL to do except match his specs.  You'll notice that after that speed bump, I posted that we'd match any SHIPPING device, which is what I should have done from the start, but we'd already raised the specs so it was too late.

I have to say, this statement makes more sense to me than anything I've read, from either side in this trainwreck. 

When marketing runs ahead of engineering, the vacuum formed will be filled with shit.

[Bitcoinorama]

I feel like I got caught in the middle buying a LS! It would have been much easier if BFL just came out with 1 unit size.

Very true, if the had just released the 5GH/s units in volume, kept the other designs on standby for a midlife speed bump, the entire industry would be different, they would have still sold all their chips,  Avalon may have not released a thing, or it wouldn't have been 66GH/s. BFL drove up the net hash years before it needed to be, and cost themselves countless sales in the process. Well it's too late to do anything about it now, the arms race is up to 200GH/s per chip atm.

No, you can blame that on Tom.  He's the one who posted complete nonsense as far as specs go.  There was nothing for BFL to do except match his specs.  You'll notice that after that speed bump, I posted that we'd match any SHIPPING device, which is what I should have done from the start, but we'd already raised the specs so it was too late.

Similar things are happening now with the new ASIC providers, but fortunately there are actually chips in the field this time around, so no matter what you announce as specs, a working chip today is vastly superior to a non-existent chip tomorrow.  

That's not entirely true is it. The majority of chips 'available today' are not available to purchase and receive within a similar time period. Most are merely fulfilling pre-orders taken some time back. Aside ASICminer who grossly overcharge for the luxury of having their tech now are the only company with the means to offer such devices...

[erk]

I feel like I got caught in the middle buying a LS! It would have been much easier if BFL just came out with 1 unit size.

Very true, if the had just released the 5GH/s units in volume, kept the other designs on standby for a midlife speed bump, the entire industry would be different, they would have still sold all their chips,  Avalon may have not released a thing, or it wouldn't have been 66GH/s. BFL drove up the net hash years before it needed to be, and cost themselves countless sales in the process. Well it's too late to do anything about it now, the arms race is up to 200GH/s per chip atm.

No, you can blame that on Tom.  He's the one who posted complete nonsense as far as specs go.  There was nothing for BFL to do except match his specs.  You'll notice that after that speed bump, I posted that we'd match any SHIPPING device, which is what I should have done from the start, but we'd already raised the specs so it was too late.

Similar things are happening now with the new ASIC providers, but fortunately there are actually chips in the field this time around, so no matter what you announce as specs, a working chip today is vastly superior to a non-existent chip tomorrow.  

I don't know the Tom story. or who Tom is, you might want to elaborate or post a link if it's to be found elsewhere. I only first heard about BFL back in March.

[Inaba]

I feel like I got caught in the middle buying a LS! It would have been much easier if BFL just came out with 1 unit size.

Very true, if the had just released the 5GH/s units in volume, kept the other designs on standby for a midlife speed bump, the entire industry would be different, they would have still sold all their chips,  Avalon may have not released a thing, or it wouldn't have been 66GH/s. BFL drove up the net hash years before it needed to be, and cost themselves countless sales in the process. Well it's too late to do anything about it now, the arms race is up to 200GH/s per chip atm.

No, you can blame that on Tom.  He's the one who posted complete nonsense as far as specs go.  There was nothing for BFL to do except match his specs.  You'll notice that after that speed bump, I posted that we'd match any SHIPPING device, which is what I should have done from the start, but we'd already raised the specs so it was too late.

Similar things are happening now with the new ASIC providers, but fortunately there are actually chips in the field this time around, so no matter what you announce as specs, a working chip today is vastly superior to a non-existent chip tomorrow.  

That's not entirely true is it. The majority of chips 'available today' are not available to purchase and receive within a similar time period. Most are merely fulfilling pre-orders taken some time back. Aside ASICminer who grossly overcharge for the luxury of having their tech now are the only company with the means to offer such devices...

I'm not sure where you are getting your data, but BFL is the only company shipping ASIC's in any meaningful quantity and hashrate at the moment and looks to be for the next month if you believe any of the estimates out there (which are, frankly, quite unlikely to come to pass), or for the next few months once reality catches up with many of the clones and new vendors.  This is just speculation of my part, of course, but the facts at the moment are BFL is the only ASIC company shipping consumer devices in any reasonable quantity/hashrate.  If the BE's drop to .6 BTC, they might see a return on their investment, but I doubt it even then.

[Syke]

How on earth can you not realise you are running low on casing?!!

Do they not perform something as rudimentary as regular inventory stocktaking? Especially after the PSU issue.

Their Chief Operating Officer is too busy trolling these forums to do his actual job. They're also waiting for new orders to come in so that they'll have funds to purchase parts for the orders placed a year ago. All the refunds from being so late are a huge drain on their cash flow.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I'm not sure where you are getting your data, but BFL is the only company shipping ASIC's in any meaningful quantity and hashrate at the moment and looks to be for the next month if you believe any of the estimates out there (which are, frankly, quite unlikely to come to pass), or for the next few months once reality catches up with many of the clones and new vendors.  This is just speculation of my part, of course, but the facts at the moment are BFL is the only ASIC company shipping consumer devices in any reasonable quantity/hashrate.  If the BE's drop to .6 BTC, they might see a return on their investment, but I doubt it even then.

Either I'm an idiot or Josh is speaking in riddles again.

This is just speculation of my part, of course,...

Since the phrase is in the second sentence, it can't be in reference to the first that has...

(which are, frankly, quite unlikely to come to pass)

And it can't be in reference to the very sentence it's in because directly thereafter we read...

but the facts at the moment are...

Looks to me somebody needs a refresher course in paragraph structure. We all have an excuse when we pen incorrectly because we are...wait for...monumental assholes.

Josh, please don't comment on this post unless you're prepare to answer the following simple question: What's the status of the FCC certification process?

[dominicus]

May I ask what is current bigest problem in delivery? Production, PCB and other components, manpower or what?

 In my humble opinion, all of the above with a liberal sprinkling of Dunning-Kruger.

A mix of the following:
-higher-than-expected scrap, rework, testing, resulting in unfavorable production costs,
-overspending in development of other products with no prospects of near-term sales,
-lack of technical competence
-lack of organizational focus,
-inability or unwillingness to improve current designs,
-lack or inadequate production planning,
-overspending in marketing,
-overspending in executive compensation, perks, travel,
-overspending in discretionary fluff not contributing to operations,

Causing a lack of cash available for operations, whose consequences are:
-shortage of raw materials as unpaid suppliers suspend deliveries,
-shortage of good components,
-inability to hire, retain, or train factory staff
-degraded customer service as the installed-base expands
-inability to expand current operations (i.e. factory equipment, space, warehouse)

This, in turn, shows up externally in a couple key ways:
-belligerent customer interactions
-order cancellations
-shipment delays

[Phinnaeus Gage]

May I ask what is current bigest problem in delivery? Production, PCB and other components, manpower or what?

 In my humble opinion, all of the above with a liberal sprinkling of Dunning-Kruger.

A mix of the following:
-higher-than-expected scrap, rework, testing, resulting in unfavorable production costs,
-overspending in development of other products with no prospects of near-term sales,
-lack of technical competence
-lack of organizational focus,
-inability or unwillingness to improve current designs,
-lack or inadequate production planning,
-overspending in marketing,
-overspending in executive compensation, perks, travel,
-overspending in discretionary fluff not contributing to operations,

Causing a lack of cash available for operations, whose consequences are:
-shortage of raw materials as unpaid suppliers suspend deliveries,
-shortage of good components,
-inability to hire, retain, or train factory staff
-degraded customer service as the installed-base expands
-inability to expand current operations (i.e. factory equipment, space, warehouse)

This, in turn, shows up externally in a couple key ways:
-belligerent customer interactions
-order cancellations
-shipment delays

And we only have myself and a handful of über-monumental assholes to blame.

Well, the joke's on me, I'm off to join the circus
Oh, Mr. Barnum, save a place for me
Shoot me out of a cannon, I don't care
Let the people point at me and stare
I'll tell the world that I sucked off Sonny V
And those mean bitcoiners made a cryin' clown outta me

[Syke]

I'm not sure where you are getting your data, but BFL is the only company shipping ASIC's in any meaningful quantity and hashrate at the moment

Keep your fingers in your ears and chant, "Avalon is not shipping. Avalon is not shipping." That should make it true.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I'm not sure where you are getting your data, but BFL is the only company shipping ASIC's in any meaningful quantity and hashrate at the moment

Keep your fingers in your ears and chant, "Avalon is not shipping. Avalon is not shipping." That should make it true.

You know damn well Josh is going to come back at you, highlighting the word "meaningful" don't you? His statement has to be true because a reporter came out and penned an article that BFL is truly in full production mode, assembling and shipping 300 units a day, of which is really 400 a day as I've so proven in another thread.

Josh will even go as far as to state that Avalon doesn't even take the time to even answer simple question when asked, all things being even.

[Bitcoinorama]

I feel like I got caught in the middle buying a LS! It would have been much easier if BFL just came out with 1 unit size.

Very true, if the had just released the 5GH/s units in volume, kept the other designs on standby for a midlife speed bump, the entire industry would be different, they would have still sold all their chips,  Avalon may have not released a thing, or it wouldn't have been 66GH/s. BFL drove up the net hash years before it needed to be, and cost themselves countless sales in the process. Well it's too late to do anything about it now, the arms race is up to 200GH/s per chip atm.

No, you can blame that on Tom.  He's the one who posted complete nonsense as far as specs go.  There was nothing for BFL to do except match his specs.  You'll notice that after that speed bump, I posted that we'd match any SHIPPING device, which is what I should have done from the start, but we'd already raised the specs so it was too late.

Similar things are happening now with the new ASIC providers, but fortunately there are actually chips in the field this time around, so no matter what you announce as specs, a working chip today is vastly superior to a non-existent chip tomorrow.  

That's not entirely true is it. The majority of chips 'available today' are not available to purchase and receive within a similar time period. Most are merely fulfilling pre-orders taken some time back. Aside ASICminer who grossly overcharge for the luxury of having their tech now are the only company with the means to offer such devices...

I'm not sure where you are getting your data, but BFL is the only company shipping ASIC's in any meaningful quantity and hashrate at the moment and looks to be for the next month if you believe any of the estimates out there (which are, frankly, quite unlikely to come to pass), or for the next few months once reality catches up with many of the clones and new vendors.  This is just speculation of my part, of course, but the facts at the moment are BFL is the only ASIC company shipping consumer devices in any reasonable quantity/hashrate.  If the BE's drop to .6 BTC, they might see a return on their investment, but I doubt it even then.

But with all due respect you stated a working chip today, but the timeframe from order to delivery, especially with respect to Butterfly Labs is no where near immediate. By your own estimation you claim a two month timeframe to honour the sale, within that time there is significant competition also claiming to fulfil orders made today...

[k9quaint]

No, you can blame that on Tom.  He's the one who posted complete nonsense as far as specs go.  There was nothing for BFL to do except match his specs. 

Is this Josh admitting that BFL had to post complete nonsense for specs? /giggle
So far BFL has shipped a very small part of the total hashrate. Most of their pre-order/investment hashrate was in singles and mini-rigs, yet they can't ship past the first days worth of orders. That leaves several hundred Jalapenos shipped and that is just noise in a ~250,000 GH/s bitcoin network.

Avalon and ASICMiner currently have commanding leads in market share, but Bitfury and KNCMiner might give them a run for their money.
The good news is BFL customers who paid with PayPal are getting refunds after the 45 day window, so at least PayPal is mitigating the damage BFL has done to it's customer base. If you paid with BTC, you will have to go the long road via the FTC.

[Inaba]

But with all due respect you stated a working chip today, but the timeframe from order to delivery, especially with respect to Butterfly Labs is no where near immediate. By your own estimation you claim a two month timeframe to honour the sale, within that time there is significant competition also claiming to fulfil orders made today...

So you're saying that KnC, Hsahfast, etc.. have a chip in the field that they are shipping to customers?  Not last I checked.  It doesn't matter when the shipping date is, they have no working chip.  You can place an order with them, but you have no guarantee you'll get a working chip.  There are only three working chips at the moment (4 if you want to count Bitfury's new chip, but it's not shipped yet, so it's still a bit questionable, but of the sake of argument, we'll include them).

[Loredo]

[Deleted]

The formatting was all screwed up, and what I posted has been posted many times before.  (Where's the beat a dead horse gif when you need one?)

[Inaba]

Who has shipped in the past?  I'm not aware of a single shipped ASIC beyond ASICminer, Avalon and BFL.  Who am I missing? 

You can say it's disingenuous since it means nothing to a potential buyer, but the same can be said for every other vendor.  My point is, ordering from KnC, et al is more risky, since you don't even know if they have a working chip.  Ordering from Avalon or BFL, it may take you some time to get the chips, but at least you know you'll actually get a working chip. 

[jspielberg]

But with all due respect you stated a working chip today, but the timeframe from order to delivery, especially with respect to Butterfly Labs is no where near immediate. By your own estimation you claim AT BEST a two month timeframe to honour the sale, within that time there is significant competition also claiming to fulfill orders made today...

Clarified that so folks don't get the wrong impression.

Personally, for my BTC purchase, I think Bitfury, and KNC in that order have the best chances of delivering on time (for a purchase today).  I am starting to think that IPO's are pretty much the best/only model for asic manufacturers that works these days.  It has the owners answerable to the shareholders at least, and puts pressure on a timely product.  I am not sure exactly who the owners are responsible to once the pre-order funds have been collected to perform on schedule.  I think 20% upfront -> 80% on delivery pre-buy could put some pressure on manufacturers as well, but there doesn't seem to be much appetite for those kinds of structures.

[one4many]

[.... some stuff deleted ... irrelevant to my question ...]
..., but the facts at the moment are BFL is the only ASIC company shipping consumer devices in any reasonable quantity/hashrate.  If the BE's drop to .6 BTC, they might see a return on their investment, but I doubt it even then.

Yepp ... you are shipping ... a huge backlog ... but shipping at last ...
Anyhow .. BE's dropped to 0.45-0.55 BTC, I'm not sure if you are aware of it, see:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263577.0 (actually shipping tomorrow  ) and
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263587.0

So when is the next price drop at BFL going to happen?  

Thx

[dwdoc]

Who has shipped in the past?  I'm not aware of a single shipped ASIC beyond ASICminer, Avalon and BFL.  Who am I missing? 

You can say it's disingenuous since it means nothing to a potential buyer, but the same can be said for every other vendor.  My point is, ordering from KnC, et al is more risky, since you don't even know if they have a working chip.  Ordering from Avalon or BFL, it may take you some time to get the chips, but at least you know you'll actually get a working chip. 

100TH and Metabank have announced they are getting their bitfury chip shipments this week.
Avalon has delivered its first bulk chip orders and BFL has delivered sample chips in a timely fashion to those of us ordering bulk chips.
On the other hand, we haven't even seen a die shot or heard about a tape-out date from KNCminer.

[geofflosophy]

Who has shipped in the past?  I'm not aware of a single shipped ASIC beyond ASICminer, Avalon and BFL.  Who am I missing? 

You can say it's disingenuous since it means nothing to a potential buyer, but the same can be said for every other vendor.  My point is, ordering from KnC, et al is more risky, since you don't even know if they have a working chip.  Ordering from Avalon or BFL, it may take you some time to get the chips, but at least you know you'll actually get a working chip. 

100TH and Metabank have announced they are getting their bitfury chip shipments this week.
Avalon has delivered its first bulk chip orders and BFL has delivered sample chips in a timely fashion to those of us ordering bulk chips.
On the other hand, we haven't even seen a die shot or heard about a tape-out date from KNCminer.

KnC will deliver in Steptember, at least for their earliest customers like CloudHashing. They are taking a strategy of under-promising and over-producing, and at least part of that is that Swedish laws would skewer them for pulling a BFL.

[Inaba]

So again... Only Avalon, BFL and ASICminer are shipping, like I said. 3 vendors with working chips in the field.