[LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining)

[dooglus]

EDIT: I thought 1000 BTC was invested and then divested in smaller chunks, but it seems like only 145 BTC was divested in smaller chunks. Thanx

The "145 in smaller chunks" is a red herring.  It happened 5 days before Oct 11th.

[GreenBits]

Someone made this (i think Qwerty)  

Interview with labcoin shareholder


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfAwihDHS_A


ROFL   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this shit is comedy GOLD.


every replay, this gets funnier.

"TheSwede75 sent me a PM, we saw the chip photos, very detailed.."

"well they promised they would bring immense hash power.. dominate the network"

"plz don't touch the wheelchair"

as the tears stream down my face , i know my neighbor is convinced im crazy.

[Zakryze]

I found videofootage of sam planning this all out and training back in 2009!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiKYeFp7vJ4

Now hes ready for the Big journey TO THE MOON!

[bobdude17]

Someone made this (i think Qwerty)  

Interview with labcoin shareholder


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfAwihDHS_A


ROFL   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this shit is comedy GOLD.


every replay, this gets funnier.

"TheSwede75 sent me a PM, we saw the chip photos, very detailed.."

"well they promised they would bring immense hash power.. dominate the network"

"plz don't touch the wheelchair"

as the tears stream down my face , i know my neighbor is convinced im crazy.

Holy shit that's funny.

[VolanicEruptor]

"Sam" seems to blow off the just-dice accusation quite easily, and claims he has no control over the wallet addresses mentioned.  I've never seen the full investigation on it... is there a link between just-dice and IPO funds or isn't there?

[BitCsByBit]

"Sam" seems to blow off the just-dice accusation quite easily, and claims he has no control over the wallet addresses mentioned.  I've never seen the full investigation on it... is there a link between just-dice and IPO funds or isn't there?

Make your own conclusion:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263445.msg3347620#msg3347620

dooglus confirmed that the end wallets belong to Just-Dice.

[VolanicEruptor]

Looks like there is no denying it, so how does he think he can get away with lying to us?  The blockchain tells the story.  To be a "good scammer" you should at least be good at lying.  This is a skill he lacks.. this is good for us though, as this gives the whole situation some transparency..

[ishkur]

Looks like there is no denying it, so how does he think he can get away with lying to us?  The blockchain tells the story.  To be a "good scammer" you should at least be good at lying.  This is a skill he lacks.. this is good for us though, as this gives the whole situation some transparency..

I asked him/posted 3 times this morning and all I got was this

A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by the starter of a self-moderated topic. There are no rules of self-moderation, so this deletion cannot be appealed. Do not continue posting in this topic if the topic-starter has requested that you leave.

You can create a new topic if you are unsatisfied with this one. If the topic-starter is scamming, post about it in Scam Accusations.

Labcoin,

Please answer below

11 Oct - 2,143.5070632 BTC - went to 1Db4b6Up7KhzCvrPCu3BgqugDEpH86EDm5
500 BTC went to 1ChUUPuiJByGTBFX12pXUwfzJ1ePspMvMy and then to Just-Dice
http://blockchain.info/tx/bc656cdaf03e528300a71fdba39ce0662cd0ad1eb6b1d7dba379a14c0742f4d8

11 Oct - 1,461.07586422 BTC - went to 1KFyiHGJRXRxT9TQiVuy12kdYtCiLmcnas
1,000 BTC went to 13cSk2UJwcZ3ch6xW1SqjDrFXGhjeuF13K then to Just-Dice
http://blockchain.info/tx/a32e281f2ecc10f2a675afa1cd2b7566a8b5f71d736590688ed2e7d03b2af83a

tl;dr Most of the IPO funds ended up at Just-Dice. "Sam" is either a big gambler, or he is trying to launder the money!

1ChUUPuiJByGTBFX12pXUwfzJ1ePspMvMy and 13cSk2UJwcZ3ch6xW1SqjDrFXGhjeuF13K are addresses in the Just-Dice wallet.  They are user deposit addresses.  User deposits are regularly swept up and moved to the online storage address.  So both the above are simply direct deposits to Just-Dice.

You are right it seems.

doog mentioned seeing a deposit of 1,000 coins come in recently that was then withdrawn in smaller chunks, no gambling or invest made, which looked like a drive by laundering

09:46:56 (1) <dooglus> aah: "(1) <dooglus> so some guy deposited 1k BTC, then withdrew 25, 50, 10, 20, 40 in separate transactions to different addresses"
09:47:36 (1) <dooglus> so yeah, it happened

That was before this incident.

Did you see what happened to Just-Dice profits on Oct 11th?  Dates are UTC.

[BitCsByBit]

The above evidence is circumstantial, but you have to admit there are too many coincidences for it not to be true, or at least raise red flags.

It is easy for "Sam" to blow off the accusations, but it is as easy to post the wallet address where the IPO funds are, even if he had no control of it.

What would be his reason for not doing so?

Looking back, Labcoin has managed to avoid providing any proof that this is not a scam.

[Zubilica]

Shares held publicly   8,094,329 time to sell. I guess he made another payment in shares )

[Alphi]

ok im going to chime in here with some thoughts...

I haven't really posted in this thread before but I have posted in other threads and called scam when I saw it.

I've been investing in US stocks for more than 10 years so I have a fair idea of how to measure risk.

I have held two tiny (1K)  positions in this stock since the IPO.. once before the BTCTC shut down and again after they started hashing.


Here are the reasons why I would not risk anything more than play money on this stock.
(this is just a summary for those who haven't had the time to follow this thread)

1) Fabrizzio Tatti (the founder) has been outed as a known scammer and he has even admitted that he posed as Sam Noi on IRC.
2) Itech Pro, the parent company supporting Labcoin, does not have an office.. the address points to an address in a building which is shared by dozens of other companies so for all intents and purposes it leads to nothing more than a PO box.
3) Howard Wang the lead (and only) chip designer testified how difficult and aloof and poorly organized the labcoin management were. He even states how they didnt even pay him properly.
4) there is no evidence of 65nm chips only 130nm chips.. 130nm is already obsolete (I am currently running a 65nm Butterfly labs single and I know it will be obsolete within a few months)
5) being so poorly organized none of the major fabs are taking Labcoin seriously  (it would be extremely difficult for them to get a 28nm tape out even if they had a working design)
6) vast amounts of Money (BTC) has been shown to move from Labcoin to Just Dice (whether the money has been gambled or laundered is immaterial.. the mere fact that they are willing to move hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of shareholder money without shareholder approval is deeply concerning)
7) The current chips they have hashing are unstable. (the has rate has been moving between 600GH and 3TH up and down daily like a yoyo..  suggesting that there are Major problems with the chip design or overheating...  (for what its worth my BFL rig has been running non stop for 3 weeks since I got it without a hitch).. and yet we do not even know if they are using their own chips or some store bought chips...
8 ) A blog post from the CEO of 796 (in chinese) (where I believe some Labcoin assets were supposed to be listed)  seems to share the shareholder concerns that Labcoin management are an extremely aloof and shady.

here are some things that should give shareholders some comfort.

1) Labcoin are now hashing.. and paying dividends.. (I can confirm that they are paying dividends on havelock atleast)
2) the vast majority of shareholder money has not yet been spent... some 6000+ BTC have been shuffled around to various wallets. (most of it going to Just Dice apparently)
3) bitcoins ARE traceable and with enough ingenuity and diligence from the community we are able to see how the money is being moved and spent. (this will become evidence should this ever make it to trial)
4) china (and hong kong I believe) have much stricter laws against mass fraud. So if it does turn out to be a fraud scheme then at least the shareholders will be comforted knowing that Mr Tatti and/or Noi will be dealt with harshly by the law.


In summary I would say that at worst case this is an outright scam and best case it is a very poorly run and organised company run by amatuers who simply hired someone else to design their chips.. In my view they have very little chance of reaching their stated goals.. however with that said.. due to the nature of bitcoins traceability, I believe that there is a chance that those who still hold shares may get some money back from the IPO funds, once Sam realizes that it is virtually impossible launder that many bitcoins with so many people watching.

Just my 2c and a first time poster.. take it for what its worth....

here is howards deposition for anyone who has not read it.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ntdxt/howard_wang_responds_to_qa_labcoin_is_a_scam/

[HeRetiK]

ok im going to chime in here with some thoughts...

Thank you for writing this up, haven't been following Labcoin for a few weeks and didn't have the heart to read through pages of... whatever you may call this thread.

[Puppet]

1) Fabrizzio Tatti (the founder) has been outed as a known scammer and he has even admitted that he posed as Sam Noi on IRC.

IM not sure how Fabrizzio was outed as a scammer, but for sure his brother in law, Alberto Armandi has been multiple times.
(eg https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=93445.0)

3) Howard Wang the lead (and only) chip designer testified how difficult and aloof and poorly organized the labcoin management were. He even states how they didnt even pay him properly.

More telling is that Howard wang confirmed he never finished the design of either 180 or 130nm chip and that they faced serious difficulties securing a fab in august. THerefore,  neither chip could have taped out before august, making the odds it was hashing last month small to non existent.

4) there is no evidence of 65nm chips only 130nm chips..

There is no evidence of a 130nm chip either. What evidence have you seen?

1) Labcoin are now hashing.. and paying dividends.. (I can confirm that they are paying dividends on havelock atleast)

I disagree that this would be a good sign. Its a terrible sign. Why? Because they couldnt possibly already be hashing with their own non existent chip, so this just further proves they are running a scam and using the IPO money for other means (gambling, buying off the shelve hardware, etc). If they had not been hashing, but giving evidence of ongoing development, at least there might still have been a small chance they were (somewhat) honest and chips could be forthcoming eventually. 

[Alphi]

IM not sure how Fabrizzio was outed as a scammer, but for sure his brother in law, Alberto Armandi has been multiple times.

its difficult to get my head around but from what I read Fabrizzio's sister Alessia who is married to Alberto Armandi is a known scammer.
Fabrizzio was using his sisters account at the beginning of Labcoin. Therefore we do not know whether Fabrizzio, Alessia and Sam are different people or the same person in the context of Labcoin. The simple fact of someone using multiple aliases is a clear sign that something is not right.

More telling is that Howard wang confirmed he never finished the design of either 180 or 130nm chip and that they faced serious difficulties securing a fab in august. THerefore,  neither chip could have taped out before august, making the odds it was hashing last month small to non existent.

good point.

There is no evidence of a 130nm chip either. What evidence have you seen?

nothing but deductive reasoning... none of the other chip manufacturers seem to have such bad hashing drop outs. BFL had similar problems when they first produced their chips but they didn't ship until all the issues were ironed out.. all of the other manufacturers have done the same. Therefore if we assume that Labcoin simply bought hashing power it shouldn't be so unreliable. The fact that it is so unreliable seems to suggest that they are using their own chips or at the very least trying to mount chips sourced from somewhere else on their own boards. However that being said we do not know how these units are being housed so it could be an overheating problem in the room due to lack of ventilation or even someone messing around with miners trying to get the best performance out of them.. so I'll leave that one open to interpretation.

I disagree that this would be a good sign. Its a terrible sign. Why? Because they couldnt possibly already be hashing with their own non existent chip, so this just further proves they are running a scam and using the IPO money for other means (gambling, buying off the shelve hardware, etc). If they had not been hashing, but giving evidence of ongoing development, at least there might still have been a small chance they were (somewhat) honest and chips could be forthcoming eventually.  

It depends on how you view it... if you invested at IPO this still probably isn't comforting news.. but if you invested after the stock tanked then it is good to see some hashing and some dividend because it should put upward pressure on the stock regardless of the uncertainty. I'm not saying this means that Labcoin is Legit only that investors who held will get some kind of return. (however small)

[Puppet]

nothing but deductive reasoning... none of the other chip manufacturers seem to have such bad hashing drop outs. BFL had similar problems when they first produced their chips but they didn't ship until all the issues were ironed out.. all of the other manufacturers have done the same. Therefore if we assume that Labcoin simply bought hashing power it shouldn't be so unreliable. The fact that it is so unreliable seems to suggest that they are using their own chips or at the very least trying to mount chips sourced from somewhere else on their own boards.

I disagree. The hash chart suggests they have ~600GH mining consistently (10 avalons or whatever) and what they added recently is often being shut down or redirected to another pool for whatever reason (installing/relocating/electrical problems/network problems..) but not likely due to the asics. For Labcoin to achieve that hashrate with their own chip, they would have to be running thousands of chips, so hundreds of blades/devices. Even if they have a problem, those arent going to magically fail and resume working together. Nor that one would expect them to have come online all together in a matter of minutes.

but if you invested after the stock tanked then it is good to see some hashing and some dividend because it should put upward pressure on the stock regardless of the uncertainty. I'm not saying this means that Labcoin is Legit only that investors who held will get some kind of return. (however small)

Sure anyone who bought in after it became apparent it was a scam may still profit a bit from the scam if the scammers decide to pay out some dividends to buy themselves some time. Its not often a good idea to bet money on a scammer paying you though and I have no sympathy for anyone boosting this stock just to achieve that. Id call them complicit.

[NineLives]

Dividend sent, I now have 148 satoshi on cryptostocks!

Confirmed got div

[Alphi]

I disagree. The hash chart suggests they have ~600GH mining consistently (10 avalons or whatever) and what they added recently is often being shut down or redirected to another pool for whatever reason (installing/relocating/electrical problems/network problems..) but not likely due to the asics. For Labcoin to achieve that hashrate with their own chip, they would have to be running thousands of chips, so hundreds of blades/devices. Even if they have a problem, those arent going to magically fail and resume working together. Nor that one would expect them to have come online all together in a matter of minutes.

yeah ill agree that its all just speculating at the moment but what I meant was... (and I can speak with some degree of experience here having worked in a data center for 4 years) depending on how your servers or hashing boxes are deployed cascaded failures can occur due to over heating.

if for example a person with little experience tries to cram as much computing power into one rack as they can without considering the BTU output (heat) and without providing adequate ventilation (aircon) then hot air can build up around the rack and cause everything in the rack to overheat, this in turn causes ALL of the fans to go into overdrive to try and suck out all the hot air...  If the fans cant suck out the hot air fast enough OR the FANS + Processors end up sucking too much power then this can cause the UPS or power circuit to trip or even a thermal cut off to trigger..

these problems are generally more a symptom of poorly deployed systems rather than poorly designed chips but they aren't helped if one doesn't understand the kind of heat output and power draw that a chip uses when running at full blast. these kinds of problems are also not helped by the fact that Shenzen and Hongkong are in a densely populated sub tropical region so the ambient room temperature is usually very high.

now when we have 600 GH running consistently and then 2.4TH running intermittently.. this could be caused by many many things as you so rightly pointed out... It could also be that the 600GH is located in a different room/location... to the other 2.4TH... the 2.4TH could be shutting down due to the simple fact of hot air building up in the room.. and after a few hours (as shown on the graph) the room could be cool enough to fire everything back up again... so yes I do agree that this is not a 100% certainty that these are new chips causing the drop outs but it also cant be ruled out...

PS considering these guys don't even have an office... I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were trying to run the farm out of their bedrooms...

PPS there is one way to test this theory.. one could simply look at the times that the systems are shutting down... (HK time not mining pool time) and then see if the miners are shutting down during daytime (when its hotter) or just randomly... if there is a correlation between outside temperatures and shutdowns then bingo you have a smoking gun.... but hey i'm too lazy analyze the data further... just throwing it out there if anyone is keen. If the shutdowns are occurring at regular intervals then this too can be related to heat output (because heat builds at a constant rate if everything else is constant, hash power, room size etc)... but if they are occurring randomly then it probably is, as you suggested, due to power, network or manual tweaking problems.

[Bitcycle]

Sounds like Labcoin has a problem where their VHDL ADC multiplexer isn't working with eligius's content aggegator.

(That sentence makes as much sense as what Sam actually said)

[Alphi]

Sounds like Labcoin has a problem where their VHDL ADC multiplexer isn't working with eligius's content aggegator.

(That sentence makes as much sense as what Sam actually said)

yep that ones got me stumped...

I wonder if they are using their own custom mining software or something off the shelf like BFG

[Puppet]

PPS there is one way to test this theory.. one could simply look at the times that the systems are shutting down... (HK time not mining pool time) and then see if the miners are shutting down during daytime (when its hotter) or just randomly... if there is a correlation between outside temperatures and shutdowns then bingo you have a smoking gun.... but hey i'm too lazy analyze the data further... just throwing it out there if anyone is keen. If the shutdowns are occurring at regular intervals then this too can be related to heat output (because heat builds at a constant rate if everything else is constant, hash power, room size etc)... but if they are occurring randomly then it probably is, as you suggested, due to power, network or manual tweaking problems.

I dont see the point in theorizing  over the location and the problem of their hypothetical chips based on when then they pull the plug or change the pool. As long as labcon doesnt provide clear proof to the contrary, even their existence is as likely as that of 10 feet tall green martian aliens.