[IPVO] [Multiple Exchanges] Neo & Bee - LMB Holdings

[JimiQ84]

Wow this gets better.

So let me get this right?

Assume in one quarter that BTC doubles (as happens a lot). Neo makes a big profit on all the BTC it holds against Euro deposits and is therefore required to pay it all out to the shareholders.

Next quarter BTC halves again (as has also happened countless times). Neo is now insolvent as it only has half the money in Euros it needs to cover it's euro depositors.

I'll say it again the 'take euros invest in BTC' model does not work and I cannot wait to see what the accounting statements look like through time...............

This is either a scam or a company that completely does not understand financial risks and balance sheets. I think given the efforts so far it's the latter. The problem is that enthusiasm does not overcome a flawed financial model.

BTC doubling it's value isn't considered a profit. Profit comes from fees from customers.

[bittymitty]

Wow this gets better.

So let me get this right?

Assume in one quarter that BTC doubles (as happens a lot). Neo makes a big profit on all the BTC it holds against Euro deposits and is therefore required to pay it all out to the shareholders.

Next quarter BTC halves again (as has also happened countless times). Neo is now insolvent as it only has half the money in Euros it needs to cover it's euro depositors.

I'll say it again the 'take euros invest in BTC' model does not work and I cannot wait to see what the accounting statements look like through time...............

This is either a scam or a company that completely does not understand financial risks and balance sheets. I think given the efforts so far it's the latter. The problem is that enthusiasm does not overcome a flawed financial model.

BTC doubling it's value isn't considered a profit. Profit comes from fees from customers.

Yes this will be considered a profit as the customer deposits are denominated in EUR not BTC

[ex-trader]

BTC doubling it's value isn't considered a profit. Profit comes from fees from customers.

No - the entire business case is based upon assumptions they can take deposits in Euro and invest them in BTC and BTC goes up. I suggest you read it fully, its fairly scary once you start to consider what happens if BTC doesn't go up or goes down. Funnily enough thats not shown in the plan. Just the idea that they'll be able to cover these losses through some special secret 'trading'......

[bittymitty]

There are ways you can hedge your bets and have stop loss orders in a downward market.  How do current hedge funds and day traders limit losses?  Being an ex-trader what did you do in a bear market?

[kingcrimson]

Wow this gets better.

So let me get this right?

Assume in one quarter that BTC doubles (as happens a lot). Neo makes a big profit on all the BTC it holds against Euro deposits and is therefore required to pay it all out to the shareholders.

Next quarter BTC halves again (as has also happened countless times). Neo is now insolvent as it only has half the money in Euros it needs to cover it's euro depositors.

I'll say it again the 'take euros invest in BTC' model does not work and I cannot wait to see what the accounting statements look like through time...............

This is either a scam or a company that completely does not understand financial risks and balance sheets. I think given the efforts so far it's the latter. The problem is that enthusiasm does not overcome a flawed financial model.

This is the 50th time you're posting this... but I think you are too focused on price. I think you have a western bias and are sheltered from what is happening around the world.  Just look at the China situation right now. Lots of money pouring in. Same thing will happen once NeoBee opens.

When there is a bank run, it is caused by total loss of confidence. As long as fundamentals of Bitcoin remain strong, price itself will not lead to loss of confidence. Its inherent properties are simply too great to ignore. Similar to the gold crash this year, people are just buying more because nothing about gold has changed.
 

[Skoutz]

Seems ex-trader is going to have a heart attack in case Neo Bee succeeds

Jealousy is a bad thing and it stinks...

[Skoutz]

Bitcoin community is used to getting regular weekly dividends from miner stocks and including a dividend helped them A LOT with selling their shares.

If this is the case, the Bitcoin community needs to grow up and realize that if they want Bitcoin to succeed as a currency then it needs to act like a currency. Hence, businesses need to be real businesses getting funded properly. If it fails, it fails. That's the risk of investing, especially when you are essentially investing in two things at once. We can't just sit on our hands and expect them to pay out dividends because we are used to it...relax...it will come.

+1

VERY WELL SAID.

[Skoutz]

Let me clarify something on dividends.

Under British Law (and Cypriot Law which is based on the British - Cyprus was a British colony up to 1960), a company can pay dividends out of accumulated REALISED profits.

If the value of BTC rises, and hence the value of BTC held by LMB Holdings rises in terms of the EUR, this is an UNREALISED profit for the company and a dividend cannot be paid; payment of a dividend by the company would be ILLEGAL.

Please, those that do not really know the facts, it is better not to throw in the discussion unsubstantiated claims because they confuse, instead of clarifying, things.

[Peter Lambert]

Let me clarify something on dividends.

Under British Law (and Cypriot Law which is based on the British - Cyprus was a British colony up to 1960), a company can pay dividends out of accumulated REALISED profits.

If the value of BTC rises, and hence the value of BTC held by LMB Holdings rises in terms of the EUR, this is an UNREALISED profit for the company and a dividend cannot be paid; payment of a dividend by the company would be ILLEGAL.

Please, those that do not really know the facts, it is better not to throw in the discussion unsubstantiated claims because they confuse, instead of clarifying, things.

Are profits calculated in bitcoins or in euros? Are the profits realized when they trade the euros for bitcoins and then can pay dividends in bitcoin, or are the profits realized when they trade bitcoins for euros, and then they have to trade them back to pay them out as dividends?

[bittymitty]

Let me clarify something on dividends.

Under British Law (and Cypriot Law which is based on the British - Cyprus was a British colony up to 1960), a company can pay dividends out of accumulated REALISED profits.

If the value of BTC rises, and hence the value of BTC held by LMB Holdings rises in terms of the EUR, this is an UNREALISED profit for the company and a dividend cannot be paid; payment of a dividend by the company would be ILLEGAL.

Please, those that do not really know the facts, it is better not to throw in the discussion unsubstantiated claims because they confuse, instead of clarifying, things.

I am not an expert on law but according to this definition http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/realizedprofitsvsunrealizedprofits.asp
Realised profits are when you convert shares to cash.  I don't know if you are aware but BTC is a currency and not a share.  You do not need to convert BTC to toilet paper fiat as it is already a currency.  Also dividends are paid out as BTC and not fiat.  Maybe you should get a better understanding of Bitcoin before you make comments about it.

This is a document about the law http://www.icaew.com/~/media/Files/Technical/technical-releases/legal-and-regulatory/TECH-02-10-Guidance-on-realised-and-distributable-profits-under-the-Companies-Act-2006.pdf
its only 168 pages if anyone wants to have a read....

[ex-trader]

Skoutz,

I'm not jealous at all.

I think the BTC banking and payments aspects of Neo is a great idea and I wish them the best of success. However the only aspect I take issue with is taking Euro deposits, holding them in Bitcoins and not telling the customer or the shareholders of the risks involved, or being clear that the customer does not benefit from the upside. I also think it is illegal from a financial institutions governance point of view and will be very surprised if their regulators, accountants and VC investors allow them to operate like this.

[bittymitty]

Skoutz,

1. I'm not jealous at all. I think the BTC banking and payments aspects of Neo is a great idea and I wish them the best of success. However the only aspect I take issue with is taking Euro deposits, holding them in Bitcoins and not telling the customer or the shareholders of the risks involved, or being clear that the customer does not benefit from the upside. I also think it is illegal from a financial institutions governance point of view and will be very surprised if their regulators, accountants and VC investors allow them to operate like this.

2. Regarding dividends, they do not have to be realised as cash to be paid out. Plenty of companies make profits that are declared but not necessarily received as cash and even borrow loans with which to pay dividends, provided they have sufficient declared profits.

Where in the prospectus does it say NEOBEE will withhold the information about the business model?  The customer has a choice in having a BTC or EUR denominated account.  The customer is going to be offered a fixed interest rate on EUR denominated account so they will benefit from a BTC/EUR increase.

Go back and read the prospectus(hint:this is where the shareholders are informed of the business model).

[ex-trader]

Where in the prospectus does it say NEOBEE will withhold the information about the business model?  The customer has a choice in having a BTC or EUR denominated account.  The customer is going to be offered a fixed interest rate on EUR denominated account so they will benefit from a BTC/EUR increase.

Go back and read the prospectus(hint:this is where the shareholders are informed of the business model).

Show me exactly in the prospectus where it says that retail customers will be told explicitly that their money will be invested in BTC, but that the majority of the upside is kept by Neo, but in the event of BTC falling that Neo will be unable to pay them back.

Customers are not stupid and they'll work this out over time as Neo keep 'adjusting' how many Bitcoins they own via a nonsensical 'peg'......

[cryptocyprus]

Where in the prospectus does it say NEOBEE will withhold the information about the business model?  The customer has a choice in having a BTC or EUR denominated account.  The customer is going to be offered a fixed interest rate on EUR denominated account so they will benefit from a BTC/EUR increase.

Go back and read the prospectus(hint:this is where the shareholders are informed of the business model).

Show me exactly in the prospectus where it says that retail customers will be told explicitly that their money will be invested in BTC, but that the majority of the upside is kept by Neo, but in the event of BTC falling that Neo will be unable to pay them back.

Customers are not stupid and they'll work this out over time as Neo keep 'adjusting' how many Bitcoins they own via a nonsensical 'peg'......

Our marketing explicitly states that when a customer uses a branch or other point of exchange, they are exchanging their Euro for Bitcoin, we are educating the population on Bitcoin from the outset. I am still struggling to see the part where it becomes apparent that we are hiding this from the customer, we are merely allowing customers to use Bitcoin without any of the technical and security related hurdles. We will always be in a position to top up their wallets on a decrease in the rates of Bitcoin. Our local rate will be extremely close to the public market rate, whilst our reserves will be traded constantly and our additional income streams will add to our own reserves, our additional income will surpass the income derived through gains we achieve through the increased rate of Bitcoin, so any increase will become a bonus.

If the rate drops to $1 (Highly unlikely), we will buy every single Bitcoin available and use it all in Cyprus for our customers. If this decrease is due to a technical flaw, it will be resolved within hours as per the previous fork that occurred.

On a less repetitive note, I will be releasing the information and a further update later today, as promised in the previous update.

[N_S]

On a less repetitive note, I will be releasing the information and a further update later today, as promised in the previous update.

Good man. Looking forward to it.

[ThickAsThieves]

NEOBEE Bitfunder Migration Grace Period

In light of Bitfunder's recent announcements, we are enabling each Bitfunder shareholder ONE free migration to Havelock.

The following limitations apply:
1. You must initiate this migration request before November 1, 2013.
2. Due to a massive amount of requests, your migration might take anywhere from 1-14 days to process.
3. Beginning Nov. 1st, all transfers will go back to having the 1btc service fee.
4. We can make no guarantees that Bitfunder or Havelock will not impose additional limitations on trading in the future.

 How to Transfer Shares:
 1. Make the subject of your email: NEOBEE
 2. Push the amount of shares to the issuer account on Bitfunder: NeoBee
 3. Send an e-mail to tat.investments@gmail.com from your account email address registered with HavelockInvestments.com and include the following info:
  - Bitfunder account name (not email),
  - Bitfunder public wallet address
  - Quantity of shares
  - Havelock registered email address

Do NOT send your request more than once, and do NOT include other requests, questions or comments.

Transfers will be transferred in batches, and confirmations will ONLY be sent after each batch. Do NOT send emails requesting updates.

NOTE: TAT Investments is not responsible for any lost value, arbitrage, or trading opportunities due to delays in processing transfer requests. TAT Investments is not responsible for any limitations or discontinuations of services or access to liquidity imposed by the host exchanges.

UPDATE

The final batch of free migrations to Havelock have been completed.

The service is still available, but now reverts to the 1 BTC service fee.

[MilkyLep]

Thank you TAT, that was mighty quick. I suppose its because I lagged until the final day - had to wait for that drop on BF though 

Can't wait to hear the update later today, very impressive how everything is moving along.

[minerpart]

I suggest you read it fully, its fairly scary once you start to consider what happens if BTC doesn't go up or goes down. Funnily enough thats not shown in the plan. Just the idea that they'll be able to cover these losses through some special secret 'trading'......

There are many institutions or sovereign banks that could destroy NeoBee if they thought it was a challenge to their interests. They would not be required to work as a consortium, some of these global players have Billions of dollars that they could use to manipulate the market into new low after new low. They would likely accumulate BTC over a long period, then continually dump on every new dip undermining confidence. The result is months of declining btc value. That alone could bankrupt NeoBee before you consider how they could manipulate the Euro to Neo's detriment.

Without a working hedge strategy for declining btc value NeoBee is doomed. Is there one? There might be in a few years when BTC market-cap is 20Billion, but not now.

[ex-trader]

Since Neo still refuse to answer my simple questions with simple answers let me ask it again in a very simple way.

One Bitcoin is currently worth 150euros. If I could open an account tommorow with my 150 euros, will I own one Bitcoin and be given the address/code for that Bitcoin that will allow me to transfer it to a place of my choice if required.

Please answer with a simple yes or no.

[minerpart]

Not sure what exchange you are using ex but you want to think about moving - 213 USD on mtgox right now and 203 on Bitstamp. Still, good question

Opps you said Euros, my mistake.