[IPVO] [Multiple Exchanges] Neo & Bee - LMB Holdings

[weaknesswaran]

+1

Anybody remember Nokia having a market share 50%+
Things change quickly, even quicker in btc world.

[N_S]

I have been extremely clear about the above throughout...

This is most certainly the case.

ex-trader, you can go back to the first handful of pages in this thread and see with the most basic of reading comprehension skills, that the questions you've been asking have been answered again and again.

[ex-trader]

Why the name ex-trader?  If you used to be a professional trader as I seem to recall you saying, is your choice of name not rather egotistical?  If so, for me, it somewhat weakens your case.

Why the change in language from your early posts to more recent ones?  Your early posts felt impartial, professional and lacking motive, yet your recent posts have an agenda and sometimes seem borderline fud.  Are you the same person or has the account been passed on to someone else?

If perhaps you have a motive which wasn't clear on the early pages of this thread would you share please?  What have you to gain or lose?

I would appreciate an honest and open response to these 'off-topic' questions because I genuinely can't work you out myself and as such am floating around NEOBEE limbo.

Thanks in advance.  

To answer in short:

I have no particular desire to reveal that much about myself other than yes, I have been a trader (for top global banks) but am now an investor only. I also have a lot of experience in banking products and bank balance sheets. I happen to know a fair bit about bank regulations, liquidity, maturity transformation and interest rate risk/currency risks. Risk in financial business is my life, I spent 25 years doing it, so it's one of few products in Bitcoin world I have perhaps some relevant experience in. As for the name, I had to think of something.

As for my motive frankly it's a mid muddled. I really want these guys to succeed, I think they're making a great effort in perhaps the most receptive market-place and had they stuck to Bitcoins only then I would really have few comments. However I believe their main product is misguided and either ends up with huge risks on them or the customer and I also find it hard to believe that anyone will be placing any money into this product which will not have the €100k protection that normal bank accounts have and that has very little upside. Nor does it even allow them to have actual Bitcoins. I also think it unlikely they'll get through regulatory approvals with this product.

I was hoping they might realise this before they launch and find it doesn't work and ruins all their other good efforts. I think I'm a lone voice in this though, so it's probably time for me to stop posting on this now and just let fate takes it course.

[cryptocyprus]

Can you explain the 100k "insurance", how would that insurance work when the initial proposal during the bail-ins was set at 6.9% of everything over €1k....the insurance was declared a fallacy because if it was worth anything, the proposal wouldn't have been made.

[ex-trader]

Can you explain the 100k "insurance", how would that insurance work when the initial proposal during the bail-ins was set at 6.9% of everything over €1k....the insurance was declared a fallacy because if it was worth anything, the proposal wouldn't have been made.

As you know the inital proposal could not be carried out since it broke the law, which required up to 100k to be protected, which is why the money was only seized from over 100k deposits.

http://www.centralbank.gov.cy/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=8158&lang=en

[cryptocyprus]

It was stopped with less than 2 hours to spare, my source the team of lawyers fighting against it.

[cryptocyprus]

Aren't capital controls still in place? Money you can't use is seized, no matter what number your bank claims you have.

Yes they are, however not strictly enforced. There has been announcements about their removal in full by January.

[ffssixtynine]

Ex trader, that makes more sense. The problem with what you were posting was you were asking leading questions where you either knew or should have known the answer. Much better to post your precise issues rather than try and 'prove' something through leading questions and potentially (in my view) misrepresentation.

Risks on customers: now that is a fair question. How wil the risks be disclosed? How do they compare to other banks in Cyprus? How will customers be persuaded to buy into it? What protection do customers have? Can the govt take money from here just as with other banks?

I believe they can have actual Bitcoins however. It's really about whether they choose a bitcoin denominated  or a euro denominated account. In many ways that's the point about it being in Cyprus where people don't trust their euros not to get stolen. Bitcoins are not debt based so as long as the bank is properly run and nothing really bad happens to bitcoin, I assume that customers will be able to move their Bitcoins out with ease, unless it's a fixed time account. How many Bitcoins they have will vary if it's euro linked. They are multisig accounts if I remember correctly.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Making the account options clear to customers is going to be tricky and I too will be interested in the fine detail.

I don't disagree that this is a tough ask hence why I didn't invest at the IPO price. However, to keep the conversation away from the usual trolling, I think it better to engage more positively rather than try to make it out it's just an exchange under another guise. It really isn't. That doesn't mean they aren't exposed to exchange rate risk but that does not make it an exchange.

[NUFCrichard]

I agree somewhat with what ex trader says, but I think it's also worth noting that most people aren't or weren't aware that if they all go to the bank to withdraw all their money at the same time, the bank will not be able to pay them. Also they didn't know that by just keeping money in the bank, they were at risk of having it seized.
In the case of neobee, if the currency backing their deposit completely fails, they will lose their money.  I don't think it will happen, I doubt many here do, and surely anyone depositing won't either, or they shouldn't deposit.

[minerpart]

Yes the big boys could try and destroy us, but how long will it take for them to stop laughing at the little guy, long enough for us to be strong enough to resist? If Bitcoin doesn't take the step towards the true mass adoption, then it will eventually fizzle out as a fad.

Like ex-trader I'd ideally like to see this 'bank' do well, but the business model is far too fragile, from what we've been told, to give a decent chance for that success to happen. You admit the big boys could eat you for lunch and they only thing stopping them would be if you quickly became strong enough. Well by that you might mean if BTC continues it's upwards trajectory after you launch, because from what I can see no matter how many Cypriot householders deposit with you, a 40% sustained dip in BTC could potentially ruin the company (and wipe out those savings). You can't base your success on a guaranteed appreciation (within neobee forcast margins) of BTC. Not when manipulation of the currency (which would be so easy with a market cap of just 3Billion) is so likely by your competitors.

Best of luck with it but you need to realise your current model is not very secure in the cut-throat market you are entering and do something about it. You need to create that firewall that will mean a huge dip in btc value will not ruin neobee - and thus prevent your competitors from attacking you on that front.

Without that protection you are gambling essentially. And your investors and customers need to realise your current strategy is extremely high risk and the loss of everything will be a real risk in the initial stages.

Investor caution:

In summary - do not put all of your eggs in this basket. Lloyds (LBG) just lost another 440Million GBP in the last quarter, everything with 'Bank' written on it does not automatically turn to gold. Far from it.

[cryptocyprus]

As previously stated, we are going to be generating many streams of revenue, our success is not just based on the appreciation of BTC.

[jbest8283]

As previously stated, we are going to be generating many streams of revenue, our success is not just based on the appreciation of BTC.

As previously stated, don't waste your time trying to please these people. If they don't believe in it they have no stake anyway.

[minerpart]

As previously stated, we are going to be generating many streams of revenue, our success is not just based on the appreciation of BTC.

Sure, you have your fees and then you'll have your forex/gold/securities trading room. But I'm fairly sure you cannot make 50% pa on an institution-sized trading account. If you did you could join the Soros club.

[ex-trader]

As previously stated, we are going to be generating many streams of revenue, our success is not just based on the appreciation of BTC.

As previously stated, don't waste your time trying to please these people. If they don't believe in it they have no stake anyway.

So should the forum rules be amended for all securities, so that only shareholders may speak and then only then can they say positive things about the stock?

[ex-trader]

As previously stated, we are going to be generating many streams of revenue, our success is not just based on the appreciation of BTC.

Sure, you have your fees and then you'll have your forex/gold/securities trading room. But I'm fairly sure you cannot make 50% pa on an institution-sized trading account. If you did you could join the Soros club.

If they were that good at trading and proven to be so then it would have been much cheaper and easier to simply raise money for a trading fund.

[jbest8283]

As previously stated, we are going to be generating many streams of revenue, our success is not just based on the appreciation of BTC.

As previously stated, don't waste your time trying to please these people. If they don't believe in it they have no stake anyway.

So should the forum rules be amended for all securities, so that only shareholders may speak and then only then can they say positive things about the stock?

As per the quote, I was actually commenting to cryptocyprus.

[minerpart]

As previously stated, we are going to be generating many streams of revenue, our success is not just based on the appreciation of BTC.

Sure, you have your fees and then you'll have your forex/gold/securities trading room. But I'm fairly sure you cannot make 50% pa on an institution-sized trading account. If you did you could join the Soros club.

If they were that good at trading and proven to be so then it would have been much cheaper and easier to simply raise money for a trading fund.

Well they might not have had the account size to trade that big? They now have funds I'm guessing to head hunt a small junior trading team from a minor fund or the like. But even a great team (which they likely can't afford) couldn't make the required balance sheet impact without taking major risks. Thats another layer of risk that the company can't survive a failure on. Does error account 88888 still work?

[bittymitty]

As previously stated, we are going to be generating many streams of revenue, our success is not just based on the appreciation of BTC.

Sure, you have your fees and then you'll have your forex/gold/securities trading room. But I'm fairly sure you cannot make 50% pa on an institution-sized trading account. If you did you could join the Soros club.

If they were that good at trading and proven to be so then it would have been much cheaper and easier to simply raise money for a trading fund.

Well they might not have had the account size to trade that big? They now have funds I'm guessing to head hunt a small junior trading team from a minor fund or the like. But even a great team (which they likely can't afford) couldn't make the required balance sheet impact without taking major risks. Thats another layer of risk that the company can't survive a failure on. Does error account 88888 still work?

Don't forget that NEOBEE wont be trading with customers BTC as this is locked in the account.  They are going to have a separate trading fund to risk with.   Also the main risk to NEOBEE that I can see is not being able to get enough depositors/customer.  As long as they have a healthy customer base that is depositing and spending the BTC/EUR rate will be irrelevant as income will be derived from transactions and services provided.

[ex-trader]

As long as they have a healthy customer base that is depositing and spending the BTC/EUR rate will be irrelevant as income will be derived from transactions and services provided.

Do you have any idea how difficult is to make money from services on accounts and how few depositors actually buy any services.



Anyway - I'm really looking forward to the marketing leaflets:

- Place your Euros in our Bitcoin accounts
- You will own bitcoins, but you cannot have them, control them or actually spend them, since we need access to take them away from you if they go up in value
- We'll give you a little bit of their increase in value instead
- You'll be protected against their fall by our special unproven secret black box trading methods
- No, you won't have the usual 100k protection from Bank of Cyprus like normal accounts

That's a really compelling product isn't it......

[cryptocyprus]

4 of the 5 points you made are wrong, but the 5th may even be wrong by the time we open our doors to the public, I thought the licenses would be more entertaining for someone such as yourself, over the marketing material. Each to their own I guess.

Its actually quite easy to derive income from other services, when you have the technological advantage over your competitors like Western Union, Money Gram etc (Naming just one service).