[IPVO] [Multiple Exchanges] Neo & Bee - LMB Holdings

[ex-trader]

4 of the 5 points you made are wrong, but the 5th may even be wrong by the time we open our doors to the public,

OK, so please correct them and write what the actual situation is, since my points are taken from your prospectus and comments.

[Skoutz]

Ex-trader, that's enough. You have made your point 1,000 times.

Stop being an idiot.

[San1ty]

Ex-trader, that's enough. You have made your point 1,000 times.

Stop being an idiot.

Would still be nice if CryptoCyprus would explain a little why the points of ex-trader are wrong.

[cryptocyprus]

- Place your Euros in our Bitcoin accounts

Place your Euros into your Bitcoin Wallet

- You will own bitcoins, but you cannot have them, control them or actually spend them, since we need access to take them away from you if they go up in value

On selected wallets, we are only providing the cryptographic security of the Bitcoin protocol, yes it is more than just a store of value. Customers can still use Bitcoin however they want to use it.

- We'll give you a little bit of their increase in value instead

We take on the risk for some customers (not all), so why would they get no risk and all of the reward?

- You'll be protected against their fall by our special unproven secret black box trading methods

We will have a multitude of platforms available for us to trade our own reserves to ensure that we have sufficient reserves to cover any top-ups required, our additional services will also bolster our own reserves.

- No, you won't have the usual 100k protection from Bank of Cyprus like normal accounts

The "insurance" is all smoke and mirrors, but we are in discussions with the regulators surrounding this, with or without it the people here in Cyprus know that it essentially doesn't exist, so they are not blinded by the false promises of the so called 100k guarantee.

[professorY]

Ex-trader, that's enough. You have made your point 1,000 times.

Stop being an idiot.

+1

Everyone here knows your stance very well. Pretty sure the horse was dead a long time ago so you can put away the stick.

If it turns out you're right, then you can laugh at all of us who believed in what Danny is doing with NEOBEE. Congrats. You will have won the internetz.

But if (when?) you're proven wrong, I personally can't wait to see the reaction. 

[zumzero]

Why the name ex-trader?  If you used to be a professional trader as I seem to recall you saying, is your choice of name not rather egotistical?  If so, for me, it somewhat weakens your case.

Why the change in language from your early posts to more recent ones?  Your early posts felt impartial, professional and lacking motive, yet your recent posts have an agenda and sometimes seem borderline fud.  Are you the same person or has the account been passed on to someone else?

If perhaps you have a motive which wasn't clear on the early pages of this thread would you share please?  What have you to gain or lose?

I would appreciate an honest and open response to these 'off-topic' questions because I genuinely can't work you out myself and as such am floating around NEOBEE limbo.

Thanks in advance.  

To answer in short:

I have no particular desire to reveal that much about myself other than yes, I have been a trader (for top global banks) but am now an investor only. I also have a lot of experience in banking products and bank balance sheets. I happen to know a fair bit about bank regulations, liquidity, maturity transformation and interest rate risk/currency risks. Risk in financial business is my life, I spent 25 years doing it, so it's one of few products in Bitcoin world I have perhaps some relevant experience in. As for the name, I had to think of something.

As for my motive frankly it's a mid muddled. I really want these guys to succeed, I think they're making a great effort in perhaps the most receptive market-place and had they stuck to Bitcoins only then I would really have few comments. However I believe their main product is misguided and either ends up with huge risks on them or the customer and I also find it hard to believe that anyone will be placing any money into this product which will not have the €100k protection that normal bank accounts have and that has very little upside. Nor does it even allow them to have actual Bitcoins. I also think it unlikely they'll get through regulatory approvals with this product.

I was hoping they might realise this before they launch and find it doesn't work and ruins all their other good efforts. I think I'm a lone voice in this though, so it's probably time for me to stop posting on this now and just let fate takes it course.

If he's a man of his word he will now leave this thread and prove that he is not a troll.

[NUFCrichard]

As an aside from the constant negative talk, I was wondering if you think the ongoing rise in BTCs price is a good or bad thing for neo and bee. 
It would be better if it was happening after you started taking deposits obviously, but you have raised a higher $/€ amount than anticipated...

[Stuartuk]

If he's a man of his word he will now leave this thread and prove that he is not a troll.

You are all overly-sensitive on here.

If this Bank is going to be the multi-million dollar affair you think it is and it has agreements with vendors in Cyprus signed and sealed then nothing on this poxy little thread is going to change that is it? So why the big fuss over a guy asking questions that ANY banking customer is going to ask?

If these questions are 'difficult' to answer that says to me the business model is flawed. Ex-trader has said he wants this to work but it seems he thinks the reality once this business idea hits the streets is that people will react negatively to the sales pitch. You need to seriously address that guys and you need to address that NOW before launch if you want your investments to pay back. You should be joining ex-trader in the scrutiny not telling him he is not wanted.

[kingcrimson]

If he's a man of his word he will now leave this thread and prove that he is not a troll.

You are all overly-sensitive on here.

If this Bank is going to be the multi-million dollar affair you think it is and it has agreements with vendors in Cyprus signed and sealed then nothing on this poxy little thread is going to change that is it? So why the big fuss over a guy asking questions that ANY banking customer is going to ask?

If these questions are 'difficult' to answer that says to me the business model is flawed. Ex-trader has said he wants this to work but it seems he thinks the reality once this business idea hits the streets is that people will react negatively to the sales pitch. You need to seriously address that guys and you need to address that NOW before launch if you want your investments to pay back. You should be joining ex-trader in the scrutiny not telling him he is not wanted.

 This post is exactly the kind of crap crumbs or VE would come up with in active mining. Surprised you of all people are defending a blatant concern troll.

As an aside from the constant negative talk, I was wondering if you think the ongoing rise in BTCs price is a good or bad thing for neo and bee. 
It would be better if it was happening after you started taking deposits obviously, but you have raised a higher $/€ amount than anticipated...

They said they are already performing their services for some people early, but I too worry they may be missing a lot of opportunity between now and Feb.

[Skoutz]

If he's a man of his word he will now leave this thread and prove that he is not a troll.

You are all overly-sensitive on here.

If this Bank is going to be the multi-million dollar affair you think it is and it has agreements with vendors in Cyprus signed and sealed then nothing on this poxy little thread is going to change that is it? So why the big fuss over a guy asking questions that ANY banking customer is going to ask?

If these questions are 'difficult' to answer that says to me the business model is flawed. Ex-trader has said he wants this to work but it seems he thinks the reality once this business idea hits the streets is that people will react negatively to the sales pitch. You need to seriously address that guys and you need to address that NOW before launch if you want your investments to pay back. You should be joining ex-trader in the scrutiny not telling him he is not wanted.

If you make your point 1, 2, 3, 4 times, fair enough.

If you make it 1,000 times it is obvious that you are a sick person.

[Skoutz]

As an aside from the constant negative talk, I was wondering if you think the ongoing rise in BTCs price is a good or bad thing for neo and bee. 
It would be better if it was happening after you started taking deposits obviously, but you have raised a higher $/€ amount than anticipated...

Danny somewhere said that they have already collected the amount of BTC required to go to market.

According to the prospectus this is 14,097 BTC.

In view of the increase in the price of BTC, just from this holding alone the company has doubled its size and euro/USD cash reserves since then! In today's prices that is $ 3.1 million!

[ex-trader]

If you make your point 1, 2, 3, 4 times, fair enough.

If you make it 1,000 times it is obvious that you are a sick person.

Now you have to reduce to personal insults - well done, thats really clever!

I keep asking my questions because they have not been answered. It seems some others have also understood that, but as usual questioning the facts around the latest shiny bitcoin stock with big plans is deemed trolling.

[cryptocyprus]

We had a required the amount of 9500btc to get to market as an absolute minimum. Yes the holdings have doubled in value too. With regards to missing the boat, we have decades in front of us, February isn't far away in the true scale of things.

[Skoutz]

OK thanks for the clarification.

[Skoutz]

If you make your point 1, 2, 3, 4 times, fair enough.

If you make it 1,000 times it is obvious that you are a sick person.

Now you have to reduce to personal insults - well done, thats really clever!

I keep asking my questions because they have not been answered. It seems some others have also understood that, but as usual questioning the facts around the latest shiny bitcoin stock with big plans is deemed trolling.

Your words gush bitterness, jealousy, frustration and irony. I LOVE IT!

Stay around. You are becoming amuzing

SAME PLAYER SHOOTS AGAIN.

[jbest8283]

If you make your point 1, 2, 3, 4 times, fair enough.

If you make it 1,000 times it is obvious that you are a sick person.

Now you have to reduce to personal insults - well done, thats really clever!

I keep asking my questions because they have not been answered. It seems some others have also understood that, but as usual questioning the facts around the latest shiny bitcoin stock with big plans is deemed trolling.

Geezes, this has been done. He literally, point-for-point, answered your questions. You had concerns, they were addressed. Come up with new concerns and voice them.

[Skoutz]

If you make your point 1, 2, 3, 4 times, fair enough.

If you make it 1,000 times it is obvious that you are a sick person.

Now you have to reduce to personal insults - well done, thats really clever!

I keep asking my questions because they have not been answered. It seems some others have also understood that, but as usual questioning the facts around the latest shiny bitcoin stock with big plans is deemed trolling.

Geezes, this has been done. He literally, point-for-point, answered your questions. You had concerns, they were addressed. Come up with new concerns and voice them.

No, the questions have not been addressed properly. The "balance sheet expert" (first time I saw a person who is "expert on balance sheets") wants the answer is swahili. Here it is

- Weka Euro yako katika akaunti zetu Bitcoin

Nafasi ya Euro yako katika mkoba wako Bitcoin

- Wewe wenyewe bitcoins , lakini huwezi kuwa nao, kuwadhibiti au kweli kutumia yao, tangu tunahitaji kupata kuwapeleka mbali na wewe kama wao kwenda katika thamani

Kwenye pochi ya kuchaguliwa , sisi ni tu kutoa usalama wa itifaki cryptographic Bitcoin , ndiyo ni zaidi ya kuhifadhi tu ya thamani. Wateja bado unaweza kutumia Bitcoin hata hivyo wanataka kuitumia.

- Sisi nitakupa kidogo ya ongezeko zao katika thamani badala

Sisi kuchukua juu ya hatari kwa baadhi ya wateja (si wote) , hivyo kwa nini wao kupata hakuna hatari na wote wa malipo?

- Wewe utakuwa kulindwa dhidi ya kuanguka kwao na maalum yetu unproven siri nyeusi mbinu biashara ya sanduku

Tutakuwa na wingi wa majukwaa inapatikana kwa ajili yetu na biashara ya akiba yetu wenyewe ili kuhakikisha kwamba tuna akiba ya kutosha ili kufidia juu- ups yoyote required , huduma zetu za ziada pia kuimarisha akiba yetu wenyewe.

- Hapana, huwezi kuwa na kawaida 100k ulinzi kutoka Benki ya Kupro kama akaunti ya kawaida

"Bima" yote ni moshi na vioo, lakini sisi ni katika majadiliano na wasanifu jirani hii , na au bila ya watu hapa nchini Cyprus kujua kwamba kimsingi haipo, hivyo si ameyapofusha kwa ahadi za uongo hivyo kuitwa 100k dhamana.

[ffssixtynine]

Geezes, this has been done. He literally, point-for-point, answered your questions. You had concerns, they were addressed. Come up with new concerns and voice them.

I don't think ex-trader expresses himself well but neither do I think his questions were answered for the most part.

A much clearer answer would be to list -precisely- the account offerings, including exactly how and when they can be accessed, and if each account is on the blockchain and maintained with a correct balance on a daily basis.

i.e. Can users withdraw the BTC equivalent of their Euro balance to a BTC wallet at absolutely any time whatsoever if they hold a regular Euro-pegged account?

This is important because there has to be a reason -why- people should use this bank instead of others. It does have Bitcoin exposure risk and the upside is definitely on the side of the bank rather than the user. Even the savings accounts - unless the interest rate is high enough to balance the risk then a significant lowering of BTC exposes the bank (IMV) which exposes the customers (who don't have enough upside/don't understand the risk). The more customers they have, the more they are exposed to an extended downwards period. Precise exposure depends upon the timing and extent of BTC fluctuations.

What you really want is a list of accounts with precise access rules and account limits (if any) so that we can ascertain the pros and cons of each account type. On top of that, there needs to be a sales pitch for why users should want these accounts. This, to me, is why having immediate and easy access to your actual BTC at any time is important. If you don't, why would I bank with Neo as opposed to anyone else? The govt could grab the money just as easily, I have exchange rate risk (through Neo being made insolvent due to Bitcoin issues), and currently I have no 100k guarantee regardless of how meaningful that is anyway.

Bank charges are also important to know, particularly since there aren't going to be loans made. If you're only making money from bank charges then it is tough going. This is why Bee is so important to them as another income stream. Whether the maths works or not I can't say.

Ex-trader - does that sound about right?

Just to add, I am interested - as a BTC holder - in storing my money somewhere which has genuine bank guarantees and multi-sig to help protect me from theft or losing my wallet. Where I say 'I', I mean a lot of future BTC holders who aren't techies who would pay a small fee for this.

[ex-trader]

Ex-trader - does that sound about right?

Exactly, what I am trying to get to is clear explanation of each account, which has NOT been given, particularly in relation to access to wallets and Bitcoins. From this it will be clear what are the compelling reasons to place money into the accounts.

[Skoutz]

I am a Cypriot and I work in the treasury department of a bank.

I can say that I am satisfied by the business case of the company and the answers given by Danny on the questions of the "balance sheet expert".

As for the 100K guarantee to all bank accounts, all Cypriots (and I will guess all Europeans by now) know that this is a fallacy. The whole GDP of Cyprus/Europe is not enough to "guarantee" the deposits below 100K in Cyprus/Europe.

All accounts both above and below 100K are frozen. You cannot access your "money". You have pieces of paper stating that you have XXX in your account but this is a fallacy, a psychological trick. The money simply isn't there.

All accounts both above and below 100K are frozen and compulsorily converted to deposit accounts with only 20% being made available; and out this you can withdraw only 300 euros per day, export max 3k per month or issue cheques max 15k per month.