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Author Topic: COINROYALE.COM • Provably Fair • 1 BTC Bonus • 10% Casino Rebate  (Read 149701 times)
victorhing
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August 20, 2015, 04:45:00 PM
 #1321

The edge that my friend has is probably fairly small but is completely neutralized by the incredible hands the dealer seems to get, at least that is what I have witnessed the few times we have played together.

If your friend actually has an "edge" than it means that your friend are bound to win in the long run. Having the edge in your favor doesnt mean that you will keep on winning or that you will not lose because of the dealer's "luck as few bad hands are unnavoidable situation though I have never seen anything about bug in BlackJack that gives player an edge

Interestingly, CoinRoyale has not asked my friend about the bug nor even mentioned it in any correspondence.  I would think that a casino would inquire about any problem or bug.  I guess if they are winning what would be the point.

Message this guy directly for the bug, he is the admin

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=151862

my request for proof of cold storage bankroll.

They have replied to your request already, they will not be showing proof of their cold storage

Showing a cold wallet address doesn't mean anything as the shady operator can still choose not to payout. We have been around for 1+ years (closer to 2 years) and never have any unresolved withdrawal issues. Our reputation speaks louder than anything.

Really appreciate you answering in this thread (and your previous reply on clarifying provably fair).  Smiley

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August 21, 2015, 12:49:40 AM
 #1322

It's shocking that they haven't replied to this or my request for proof of cold storage bankroll.

If you can give me stats of *total loss* and *bet size* I can approximate if its within the realms of normal variance in seconds.

Proof of cold storage does not mean anything IMHO, even a site which provide it still has the chance to not pay...

Do you worry that they will not pay if you win big?




It means something, a lot infact. It's a shame that it's not a standardized requirement. Gamblers rarely care 

The edge that my friend has is probably fairly small but is completely neutralized by the incredible hands the dealer seems to get, at least that is what I have witnessed the few times we have played together.

If your friend actually has an "edge" than it means that your friend are bound to win in the long run. Having the edge in your favor doesnt mean that you will keep on winning or that you will not lose because of the dealer's "luck as few bad hands are unnavoidable situation though I have never seen anything about bug in BlackJack that gives player an edge

Interestingly, CoinRoyale has not asked my friend about the bug nor even mentioned it in any correspondence.  I would think that a casino would inquire about any problem or bug.  I guess if they are winning what would be the point.

Message this guy directly for the bug, he is the admin

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=151862

my request for proof of cold storage bankroll.

They have replied to your request already, they will not be showing proof of their cold storage

Showing a cold wallet address doesn't mean anything as the shady operator can still choose not to payout. We have been around for 1+ years (closer to 2 years) and never have any unresolved withdrawal issues. Our reputation speaks louder than anything.
Do you support that decision? Do you play at this casino?
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August 21, 2015, 06:15:36 AM
 #1323

arallmuus - since it seems that most people reading this thread gamble, how about this wager:

I will make a video of the bug and show the proof.  Then I will bet you 10BTC that there is a bug that gives the player an advantage.  We can use a reputable escrow service.  Then once you and the escrow agent have viewed the video, he can release the BTC.  

The reason for the big dollar amount is to compensate us for the money you could make from exploiting the bug.

I personally to not gamble but I do not see this as gambling because I know with 100% certainty there is a bug that gives the player an advantage if it is exploited.
*In a fair game, you mean

I would be careful with using 100% claims as nothing is ever 100%.
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August 21, 2015, 07:22:35 AM
 #1324

Victorhing, you and your team did not read the email correctly.  The example you gave was not what was implied in the email.  I am ok if they dismiss it, I guess you would prefer that the bug be released to the public.

The bug allows the person to know if the dealer has a pat hand or will need to draw, and it also allows the player to know who will win the hand before it is played.  This is easy to take advantage of by doubling down on any hand you know you are going to win, thereby giving the player an advantage.  The only flaw in the game is that the cards seem to be dealt on the dealers favor more than a random amount.

The example I quoted in the previous reply was almost exactly (except I changed the number to A,B,C,D) what we've been told in the email. We take all the reported bugs seriously. The reasons we initially dismissed it are:

1) We've received many similar emails who claimed they saw a "pattern" in card dealing. And the one your friend sent is exactly that.

2) We know that no such pattern exists, all cards are randomly shuffled and the shuffling system is exactly the same for blackjack, baccarat, or video poker. Anyone can prove our fairness with our provably fair system, without reviewing our code.

3) The issue did not gain much of our attention because we didn't lose any bitcoins from your friend who, as you said, been trying to exploit it. The reason behind that, as you mentioned, is there's a flaw in our card system that favors the dealer. And as I mentioned in 2), we know that our card shuffling system is fair and random. Hence the dismissal.

However, with your continuous insistence that there is a bug, I've requested more information from your friend with a promise of bug bounty. And if there's such a bug, rest assured you'll be generously rewarded.

For your card shuffling question, I've passed them to our tech team and they will answer you shortly.

And as we speak, one of our technical team is working on processing the raw data (to show the final state of the game) to aid your statistical analysis. Smiley

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August 21, 2015, 10:14:47 AM
 #1325

And I think you have misread my statements and my buddies statements.  Let me put this is easy terms to follow:

1- We have stated that we have a way of knowing how the hand is going to turn out before the hand is complete.  Specifically he said this in the original email -
"a few "tells" that give the cards away on your BJ game and even having that info (which is very reliable in your BJ game) I was unable to beat it 90% of the time."
"Obviously, I do not know the cards that are going to be dealt but I know if I can win the hand before I hit or not, which is invaluable info to have in a game of BJ usually"

2- We have stated that even with the edge of knowing when we will win, we cannot beat your game.

3- The conclusion from the first 2 has made us think the following: 
If a player has a small edge over the house, yet loses more than he wins and has played a statistically significant number of hands then there is a problem with the game.

The last point I would like to make is the following:
Not one single time have we stated that there is a Pattern to the game - we are not using a pattern in the card dealing to aid in knowing the hands. Therefore, in regards to your post- statements 1, 2 and 3 are irrelevant to the conversation we are having.

Last thing I am going to say about the bug - We can tell when the dealer has a pat hand, we can tell when the dealer is going to hit, we can tell when the dealer is going to bust (but that can be swayed by us taking a card.  The flip side of that is that we have the same info about our hands because of the dealers hand.  As it was stated in the email, we know when we are drawing dead and when we can win.


It seems to me that victorhing has proven that the games are fair enough to the point that you should either provide evidence that suggests otherwise - or agree that they are indeed fair.  Unfortunately the most common outcome in these scenarios is the accusing party chooses to do neither.
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August 21, 2015, 10:21:49 AM
 #1326

Really appreciate you answering in this thread (and your previous reply on clarifying provably fair).  Smiley

No problem  Smiley

Do you support that decision? Do you play at this casino?

I did and literally I dont mind them for not showing it as they have proven themselves so far (yet this doesnt mean anything for future reputation though ) . Plus that it is not like that they are giving thousands of BTC jackpots unlike the other site

I will make a video of the bug and show the proof.  Then I will bet you 10BTC that there is a bug that gives the player an advantage.  We can use a reputable escrow service.  Then once you and the escrow agent have viewed the video, he can release the BTC

Tempting but I will have to decline this

The reason for the big dollar amount is to compensate us for the money you could make from exploiting the bug.

You can use that for yourself as well though. Exploiting things is not really my way though I would love to get compensation for providing some bug Smiley.

I personally to not gamble but I do not see this as gambling because I know with 100% certainty there is a bug that gives the player an advantage if it is exploited.

There is and you can get more than 10BTC if there is literally a bug like you have quoted . Simply provide the proof to Coinroyale and they will compensate you though  Wink.

2- We have stated that even with the edge of knowing when we will win, we cannot beat your game.

Depends, you cant expect to win most of them in a very short run even with the edge in your favour. Variance is there to ruin it though.

we can tell when the dealer is going to hit

Am I reading this correctly? Of course you know when the dealer is going to hit. The house is using the rules of soft17 which means that unless dealer has 17 or higher then it will keep on hitting
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August 21, 2015, 10:40:22 AM
 #1327

This StatsMan guy is making me lol. You found a bug, huh? While that is possible I find it highly improbable. I'll be watching this closely. I love this site!
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August 21, 2015, 10:51:30 AM
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Do you support that decision? Do you play at this casino?

I did and literally I dont mind them for not showing it as they have proven themselves so far (yet this doesnt mean anything for future reputation though ) . Plus that it is not like that they are giving thousands of BTC jackpots unlike the other site



They have a BTC2 max bet per box on BJ a player can win 100's of BTC's in a very short time.
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August 21, 2015, 11:04:27 AM
 #1329

This StatsMan guy is making me lol. You found a bug, huh? While that is possible I find it highly improbable. I'll be watching this closely. I love this site!

He actually "think" that he found a bug ( atleast this is my impression is ) but it seems he is having more losses rather than win which is why he is accusing things to be not fair here ( again this is my impression judging from the whole conversation ) which means that either there isnt any "bug" at all in the firsthand or that he is having a very bad run. Eitherway this whole conversation wont be happening now if he is winning the game

I did and literally I dont mind them for not showing it as they have proven themselves so far (yet this doesnt mean anything for future reputation though ) . Plus that it is not like that they are giving thousands of BTC jackpots unlike the other site

They have a BTC2 max bet per box on BJ a player can win 100's of BTC's in a very short time.

Some dice site even has 20 BTC max payout and some other site advertized over 60k BTC jackpot without providing any proof of cold storage as well. If CoinRoyale is a new site around here than I would agree with you it is better for them to show proof of their cold storage but so far there they have seem to be able to maintain their reputation here

P.S : do note that my opinion isnt mean to take their sides as Im merely neutral in this case and I am merely stating my opinion
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August 22, 2015, 03:44:25 PM
 #1330

Arallmuus
1- Obviously you are not understanding correctly, we know if the dealer is Pat or will take a card BEFORE the down card is exposed.   

2- I am glad you know that a dealer needs to hit until he has a 17 that is invaluable info to have

3 - As for the comment about variance, we have played in excess of 15,000 hands at this casino and have the data from 12,000 of them that was given to us by CoinRoyale. 

Last point, we do not care about the bug, refer to the post above.  We have not accused anyone of cheating at CoinRoyale.  We are simply saying that we know of a bug that gives us an edge and even after playing 15,000 hands we are not winning even close to half of the time.  Therefore we are saying that there is a potential problem with the game, most likely in the shuffling. 

We are trying to work with CoinRoyale to figure it out, and have asked appropriate questions that have not been answered yet.   

If you want to think that the software is PERFECT and that there is NO WAY possible the shuffling could have an issue then I'm happy for you.  Maybe we need to get these guys jobs at Microsoft or writing a True Random Number generator since no one else writes perfect software or has figured out a true random number generator.



You forgot the part where you post facts to back up your argument. You've been given all the tools you need, theyre being completely transparent (Unlike so many others...)
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August 22, 2015, 06:44:17 PM
 #1331

1- Obviously you are not understanding correctly

Obviously it is you that is not

Last point, we do not care about the bug.

It seems you do , based on the references below that you keep on insisting that there is a bug that give an edge to the player but you are getting more losses then wins. If you simply dont care about this then there is no point in discussing this further isnt it? but the fact is that you keep insisting that there is a "problem" .

If you will enlighten the conversation here, how many percentage of edge are we discussing about? Either way there will be two scenarios later , the former will be that there is an issue with CoinRoyale shuffling method and the later is that there is no bug that you give you an edge . I am merely more into the later option though Im eager to see how this turns out  Smiley

References :

We are simply saying that we know of a bug that gives us an edge and even after playing 15,000 hands we are not winning even close to half of the time. 
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August 22, 2015, 07:15:51 PM
 #1332


Obviously nope, why would I be shilling here? If you are a regular here then you would obviously know which site that I support  Wink

now you are misrepresenting what we have stated. 

Which? Obviously I put in references based on your post. If you think I am misrepresenting it then simply make your post clearer ( which I think Im not )

Only a schill would make such ignorant comments.

Very funny, just because someone is not in the same boat with your opinion doesnt mean that the person is a shill  Wink. Not ignorant comments but simply against everything of yours

Also I have made my stance clear here as I will see how things turns out

References :
Im eager to see how this turns out  Smiley

If we have a statistical edge and consistency lose after playing a statistically significant number of games then it could be a problem with the game. 

Yes and correct but you have repeated this few times already and I am aware of this. Now you leave the important part of my previous post

References :
If you will enlighten the conversation here, how many percentage of edge are we discussing about?

Obviously disclosing this will not give you any disadvantages as Im not asking on how you get it but merely the number for it  Smiley

We have asked fair questions about the shuffle that is suppose to be easy to follow and have not received any answers.

Obviously it is a fault from CoinRoyale and out of my league, so this has nothing to do with me

I have not put the numbers out because the raw data provided makes or very difficult to analyze what occurred in each hand. 

Numbers? are you merely pointing this "numbers" to the edge that you are claiming or that I missed something else? If this "numbers" actually refers to the edge that we are discussing about then it is safe to assume that

"you had no idea about how many edge that you have due to this bug but keep insisting that you got the edge? "

P.S : Again, not a shill comment whatsoever just merely interested with this "numbers"  Wink
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August 22, 2015, 07:49:48 PM
 #1333

Victorhing, you and your team did not read the email correctly.  The example you gave was not what was implied in the email.  I am ok if they dismiss it, I guess you would prefer that the bug be released to the public.
The bug allows the person to know if the dealer has a pat hand or will need to draw, and it also allows the player to know who will win the hand before it is played.  This is easy to take advantage of by doubling down on any hand you know you are going to win, thereby giving the player an advantage.  The only flaw in the game is that the cards seem to be dealt on the dealers favor more than a random amount.

I am not only looking into the actual cards dealt, but also how the cards were dealt - For example, here is a quote from your website regarding Fisher Yates

"We first hash the Player Seed using SHA-256 and truncate the result to 32 bits. That becomes the seed to the Mersenne Twister PRNG. We use the seeded PRNG as the random input to our Fisher-Yates shuffle, which takes the Initial Deck to arrive at the Final Deck."

This is a quote from the Fisher Yates wiki which you link in your website.

"many programming languages and/or libraries may often have only 32 bits of internal state, which means it can only produce 232 different sequences of numbers. If such a generator is used to shuffle a deck of 52 playing cards, it can only ever produce a very small fraction of the 52! ≈ 2225.6 possible permutations. It's impossible for a generator with less than 226 bits of internal state to produce all the possible permutations of a 52-card deck"

How it is possible for your system to not only shuffle a 52 card deck effectively, but to shuffle 4-8 decks adequately.

So looking further into it, the Mersenne Twister has a problem, which may account for the large number of 20's that the dealer will run in succession.  Here is the problem with the Mersenne Twister -
"It can take a long time to start generating output that passes randomness tests, if the initial state is highly non-random" and then it says "will usually output nearly the same sequence for many iterations, before eventually diverging"

So I was wondering how you work around the limitations of both the Mersenne Twister and the Fisher Yates Shuffle.  Once again, I am not making accusations, just inquiring about how the shuffling actually works.

You found a big problem with cards shuffling... i am waiting to get answer on this question by CoinRoyale ... after long play cards repeat....

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August 22, 2015, 09:01:36 PM
 #1334

after long play cards repeat

It would be nice if you would read the few older post before posting this again. Just because the cards repeat doesnt mean something fishy is going on , simply just note down the hashes before you play and verify it after you play ( which obviously takes less than 10 seconds to do so ). However it is quite unlike for the exact same cards for both dealer and player to be dealt again ( the 4 first card could be the same however the next one after that would obviously be different )
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August 23, 2015, 12:08:24 AM
 #1335

after long play cards repeat

It would be nice if you would read the few older post before posting this again. Just because the cards repeat doesnt mean something fishy is going on , simply just note down the hashes before you play and verify it after you play ( which obviously takes less than 10 seconds to do so ). However it is quite unlike for the exact same cards for both dealer and player to be dealt again ( the 4 first card could be the same however the next one after that would obviously be different )

cards are not properly shuffled according to Fisher Yates wiki they should not truncate to 32bit and it cant ever produce all possible permutations... i use one seed it is hashed and truncated and it is not real hash of seed

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August 24, 2015, 01:18:06 PM
 #1336

We actually found a great write up about how this "Provably Fair" system is easily bypassed by the Casino.  

Just for some clarification regarding the bolded part. Having provably fair mechanism doesnt mean that the gambling site wont be able to cheat you , in fact the thing with this provably fair is more like an insurance for the player which incase the gambling site tries to cheat then the player will know it . Also regarding them advertising provably fair is pretty much not weird or suspicious as it is a pretty much industry standard around here

P.S : To clarify some off topic things, Im neutral in this case and just providing some blurry things around . Im not part of CoinRoyale nor a shill of them  Smiley
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August 24, 2015, 03:17:30 PM
 #1337

We actually found a great write up about how this "Provably Fair" system is easily bypassed by the Casino.  

Just for some clarification regarding the bolded part. Having provably fair mechanism doesnt mean that the gambling site wont be able to cheat you , in fact the thing with this provably fair is more like an insurance for the player which incase the gambling site tries to cheat then the player will know it . Also regarding them advertising provably fair is pretty much not weird or suspicious as it is a pretty much industry standard around here

P.S : To clarify some off topic things, Im neutral in this case and just providing some blurry things around . Im not part of CoinRoyale nor a shill of them  Smiley

Did you read reddit article posted by StatsMan there are many ways to manipulate outcome when result is still provably fair and player can not notice... i see players complain there that they lost bets after they had to refresh page ...

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August 24, 2015, 07:26:35 PM
 #1338

We actually found a great write up about how this "Provably Fair" system is easily bypassed by the Casino.  

Just for some clarification regarding the bolded part. Having provably fair mechanism doesnt mean that the gambling site wont be able to cheat you , in fact the thing with this provably fair is more like an insurance for the player which incase the gambling site tries to cheat then the player will know it . Also regarding them advertising provably fair is pretty much not weird or suspicious as it is a pretty much industry standard around here

P.S : To clarify some off topic things, Im neutral in this case and just providing some blurry things around . Im not part of CoinRoyale nor a shill of them  Smiley

That statement is incorrect, they can cheat you and you would never know it, even with the Provably Fair mechanism in place.

In fact, we have screen pictures of it occurring, on that occasion we did notify CoinRoyale and they refunded the 0.5 BTC but we have no idea of how many times it happened previously.  That is why we have been monitoring closely and last night when it happened again and we reloaded the page the cards were in a different location and who knows if they were the original cards or not.  We did monitor some activity from their server and it appears we were cheated on those bets as well.

Holy shit. This is serious! No response from victorhing yet, either? Hmmmmm.
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August 24, 2015, 07:40:10 PM
 #1339

Sorry for the late response guys. I just saw this Smiley Like I said earlier, our team are sprinting for a new project and didn't spend as much as time on the forum as we'd like to. Anyways...

Statsman, regarding your earlier question of shuffling, you are right about our Mersenne Twister (MT) truncates to 32-bits. However, our dealer shuffle doesn't just use MT and Fisher-Yates, it also uses the Java RNG and therefore the process as a whole has enough randomness.

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August 24, 2015, 07:44:40 PM
 #1340

We actually found a great write up about how this "Provably Fair" system is easily bypassed by the Casino.  

Just for some clarification regarding the bolded part. Having provably fair mechanism doesnt mean that the gambling site wont be able to cheat you , in fact the thing with this provably fair is more like an insurance for the player which incase the gambling site tries to cheat then the player will know it . Also regarding them advertising provably fair is pretty much not weird or suspicious as it is a pretty much industry standard around here

P.S : To clarify some off topic things, Im neutral in this case and just providing some blurry things around . Im not part of CoinRoyale nor a shill of them  Smiley

That statement is incorrect, they can cheat you and you would never know it, even with the Provably Fair mechanism in place.

In fact, we have screen pictures of it occurring, on that occasion we did notify CoinRoyale and they refunded the 0.5 BTC but we have no idea of how many times it happened previously.  That is why we have been monitoring closely and last night when it happened again and we reloaded the page the cards were in a different location and who knows if they were the original cards or not.  We did monitor some activity from their server and it appears we were cheated on those bets as well.

Oh, you're talking about the 0.5 BTC? Yup, I remembered that. You sent us screenshot of the cards not loading correctly (which we assumed probably some cache/client connection error), and I refunded you the wager + comp immediately as a gesture of customer service. Despite your "mission of exposing us" (as you mentioned in the email), we still think you are a loyal customer and still intend to treat you like one Smiley

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