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Author Topic: COINROYALE.COM • Provably Fair • 1 BTC Bonus • 10% Casino Rebate  (Read 148992 times)
victorhing
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August 24, 2015, 07:52:39 PM
 #1341

One example, the "Stalling" technique that is discussed on the reddit link happened to us tonight - not only once but twice.  I think the second time it happened it was on a .7 BTC bet, of which we lost. It not only stalled, when it was reloaded the cards were in a different circle then the original.  We have seen this happen many times over the weeks but nothing like we have witnessed the last few days.   

If you reload the cards and the hands are in different circle, perhaps it's a front-end bug. I did try to reproduce it just now but couldn't. (Feel free to send me a video/screenshot if you successfully reproduce it). However even if the "reloading" bug exists, the hands should be still the same (as the hands data sent from our backend API remains).


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StatsMan
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August 24, 2015, 08:02:57 PM
 #1342

In regards to the .5 BTC - I did state you refunded that amount, I was eluding to it happening 2 more times last night and the second time it happened it was on a .7 BTC wager.  

About the MT comment - instead of writing it all out for you I will quote TrevorXavier from reddit.

"When the second round of shuffling comes into play with Mersenne Twister ("MT"), I am genuinely concerned about the poor distribution quality due to frequent reseeding. MT is known to suffer when poorly initiated (see the original paper), and randomizing a deck first with a stronger random number generator before MT does not imply it will be immune to a poor reshuffle, as MT may not exhibit uniform distribution across multiple reseeding operations. Many statistical tests will be needed to confirm this from a fair-game standpoint, so at this point I only consider it a "concern" and not a proof.
So, you make a wonderful point. It may actually be better to use a primitive for the "cutting" of the deck before dealing, rather than an algorithm. As libertaad stated in another comment, it looks like he intends to push bitZino away from MT and onto something different.
Thank you again for your excellent comment. Very good points made."

FYI - libertaad was the guy that came up with the system used by CoinRoyale and was the owner of BitZino.  Liberated also stated that the MT was going to be changed because of the limitations t has.

The points above are exactly what we stated prior to finding the write up.
victorhing
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August 24, 2015, 08:11:45 PM
 #1343

OK, I think we are about ready to start our effort of showing how CoinRoyale is nothing but another run of the mill casino with a bunch of tricks to keep people playing, while giving the players no chance to win.  We will show how they have used tactics to essentially steal peoples BTC.  

We've been around for a while and our players win from us regularly (some with huge payouts).

Quote
We just gave our last BTC to CoinRoyale - if yo want to see CoinRoyal's tricks in action, bet a few hands at like .02-.08 BTC until you are past the initial phase of the shuffle - usually about 12-15 hands.  Then kick it up to .2-.8 BTC per hand and see how many hands you win.  

We appreciate you playing with us and happy to give you a lost comp. And as I repeatedly said to you, we do not manipulate the outcome based on your wager size or even how many hands have you played. This is easily proven with our Provably Fair system. The initial data was generated before the game started. It seems to be you don't fully understand how our Provably Fair system works. My offer to walk you through the system personally still stands.

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Make sure you are monitoring for partials sent from the server - otherwise you will miss the cheat.
I have no idea what this means. Could you elaborate this further?

Quote
We knew something was going on, not only with the shuffle, but the way the house seems to routinely get 4-6 pat 20 hands in a row and the player will almost never see them.  It is very common for the house to get several in the first 6-10 hands - which may come from the Mersenne Twister -
"It can take a long time to start generating output that passes randomness tests, if the initial state is highly non-random" and then it says "will usually output nearly the same sequence for many iterations, before eventually diverging"

I answered your question about Mersenne Twister in the previous post.  

I'll answer your remaining question in a separate post below (before making this one too long).

victorhing
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August 24, 2015, 08:13:47 PM
 #1344

In regards to the .5 BTC - I did state you refunded that amount, I was eluding to it happening 2 more times last night and the second time it happened it was on a .7 BTC wager.  

About the MT comment - instead of writing it all out for you I will quote TrevorXavier from reddit.

"When the second round of shuffling comes into play with Mersenne Twister ("MT"), I am genuinely concerned about the poor distribution quality due to frequent reseeding. MT is known to suffer when poorly initiated (see the original paper), and randomizing a deck first with a stronger random number generator before MT does not imply it will be immune to a poor reshuffle, as MT may not exhibit uniform distribution across multiple reseeding operations. Many statistical tests will be needed to confirm this from a fair-game standpoint, so at this point I only consider it a "concern" and not a proof.
So, you make a wonderful point. It may actually be better to use a primitive for the "cutting" of the deck before dealing, rather than an algorithm. As libertaad stated in another comment, it looks like he intends to push bitZino away from MT and onto something different.
Thank you again for your excellent comment. Very good points made."

FYI - libertaad was the guy that came up with the system used by CoinRoyale and was the owner of BitZino.  Liberated also stated that the MT was going to be changed because of the limitations t has.

The points above are exactly what we stated prior to finding the write up.

We know who libertaad is Smiley We understand the limitation of MT as well that's why our dealer shuffle doesn't just use MT and Fisher-Yates, it also uses the Java RNG and therefore the process as a whole has enough randomness.

StatsMan
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August 24, 2015, 08:32:45 PM
 #1345

I have frozen the game successfully 3 times in a row - it is very easy to freeze it.  Also, I will try and recreate the freezing and the cards relocating but it may take a day or two because I do not remember how it happened, I know I lose BTC everytime it happens.  If you want to review the hand I think it was the last 2 hands I played last night that were .2-.7 BTC each. 

http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah118/minerscoininerscoin/Screen%20Shot%202015-08-24%20at%203.12.43%20PM_zpsr6iuastb.png


http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah118/minerscoininerscoin/Screen%20Shot%202015-08-24%20at%203.22.27%20PM_zps4j0vfi8w.png

http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah118/minerscoininerscoin/Screen%20Shot%202015-08-24%20at%203.13.32%20PM_zps5oyu8ce4.png
victorhing
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August 24, 2015, 08:47:44 PM
 #1346

Interesting is that the Player Seed typically does not change unless the player changes it - therefore the Mersenne Twister would get the same input- I have outlined the CoinRoyale Shuffle below

1- Initial Deck and Dealer Seed are hashed to the SHA
2- Then Shuffled with the Player Seed to get the final deck
     A - Hash the Player Seed
     B - Truncate results to 32 bits
     C - 32 bits are fed into the Mersenne Twister PRNG
     D - Result is fed into the Fisher-Yates shuffle

The player seed is actually randomly populated by your browser (not backend/API). We decided to make it the same so that player doesn't have to repeatedly change it in every game they play. It's more of a user experience choice.

Quote
Also, CoinRoyale has become increasingly difficult to get in touch with and are not replying to questions either here or in emails.
1- They have not replied to request for the remainder of the hands.
2- They offered to assist with the playing out of the hands, yet have not.
3- They are unable to answer questions put forth elsewhere in this thread about the shuffle.

For 1 and 2, our technical team actually wrote a script to process the outcome from raw data. But when we ran it, it crashes the process due to sheer amount of game played by you. We're working on a better version Smiley I've intended to pass you the remainder of the hands ONCE we have the finished script since you indicated that you are not able to process the raw data. If you still wants the raw data for the remainder hand, let me know in the email and I'll send it to you right away.

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To give out info on the bug, it is based on the timing of the cards release, it is reproducible on Safari using a Mac but not on Chrome and it has not been attempted on windows machines.  It does not work on iPads or phones.  We also measured the actual time to release using Chrome and the Dev Tools but it is not reproducible using Chrome so we suspect that the times would be affected as well.
That's all you have on the so-called bug? This is incredibly vague. We hope you can elaborate further so other can prove it? Please note the the timing of the cards release is different each time simply because of the server load. We sometimes have a lot of players playing (some at high speed) which causes high load to the server and thus processing time might be slower (by few milliseconds).

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We have asked if they would be willing to return lost BTC to us (and I would suspect any other player) that has been affected, we haven't heard back.

I replied to your email Smiley

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A little background about the system they use and PROMOTE - the promotion or "PROVABLY FAIR" is what makes them very suspicious.  

Wait, what? Using "provably fair" makes us suspicious? I don't know what's your logic in that. We're Provably Fair and we proudly let our players know that and all hands can provable by others (not just based on our words).

Quote
This system of "Provably Fair" was actually introduced by BitZino shortly before CoinRoyale began using it.  It wasn't long before BitZino was closed for business for stealing BTC

I think we all know Bitzino invented Provably Fair but I'm not sure about them closing down for business for stealing BTC.


victorhing
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August 24, 2015, 09:03:27 PM
 #1347

It seemed like your entire premise of the bug is, like you said (quoted directly): based on the timing of the cards release, and you mentioned you can correctly predict when the dealer gets pat 20 hands. Let me try to get this correct: you're saying that you can correctly predict the when dealers will get pat 20 hands based on the timing of the cards release, right?

I suspect you might have confused card release timing with "loading times". Have you ever thought of the loading times is slower (by few milliseconds) because if the dealer is getting 2 face cards (pat 20 hands), it takes longer to load? (face cards have bigger image thus slightly longer loading times).

victorhing
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August 24, 2015, 09:05:03 PM
 #1348

Anyway, StatsMan and your friend (whosthat), I would like to thank you for your business. I hope I've provided you with more than enough evidence and if you're still not satisfy, I recommend you that you play somewhere else.

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August 24, 2015, 09:06:09 PM
 #1349

StatsMan seems to be a SERIOUS conspiracy theorist and is getting on my fucking nerves at this point. It looks like he's grasping at straws and failing to make any real relevant proof of Coinroyale cheating. Victorhing has been professional and courteous throughout this whole ordeal. Kudos to victorhing and the Coinroyale team for dealing with crazy people like this guy! I'll be playing at your casino as long as it stays open.
StatsMan
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August 24, 2015, 09:06:17 PM
 #1350

I understand how the "Provably Fair" system works.  It is not full proof by any means.  Please refer to the link I posted earlier, it is easier to understand from Trevor.  I have quoted a portion of the Trevor/Libertaad conversation below'

"This is why we claim that the browser-based Provably Fair implementation is compromised. In fact, I believe you have alluded to that in your closing argument. If Provably Fair allows a "handful" (or more) of savvy users to ensure the house isn't cheating, and I can show that the remaining majority of users are still vulnerable to exploitation, then the system cannot be reasonably claimed as "fair" and, at the very least, cannot be "provable"."
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August 24, 2015, 09:10:41 PM
 #1351

I understand how the "Provably Fair" system works.  It is not full proof by any means.  Please refer to the link I posted earlier, it is easier to understand from Trevor.  I have quoted a portion of the Trevor/Libertaad conversation below'

"This is why we claim that the browser-based Provably Fair implementation is compromised. In fact, I believe you have alluded to that in your closing argument. If Provably Fair allows a "handful" (or more) of savvy users to ensure the house isn't cheating, and I can show that the remaining majority of users are still vulnerable to exploitation, then the system cannot be reasonably claimed as "fair" and, at the very least, cannot be "provable"."

Of course provably fair isn't PERFECT, but does it have to be? All it has to do is show within a reasonable shadow of a doubt that the casino is being fair and I think it does that. Isn't that all that matters?
StatsMan
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August 24, 2015, 09:14:46 PM
 #1352

In response to the loading times, that is a possibility.  We actually have not looked into it much, but could it also be that the Java RNG you use is predictable based on the time delay?  I recall some guys exploiting something similar back 10 years ago but I could be mistaken.  Regardless, I will be happy to film it and send it to you.  
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August 24, 2015, 09:44:24 PM
 #1353

We want to make a statement about what we have posted recently.  We started this by looking into the stats of the hands dealt and noticed a few flaws.  Some of our post prior to this are accusatory and wrong.  For that we apologize, CoinRoyale has replied to our emails and righted possible wrongs. 

We retract any accusations and want to continue to work with them on the flaws of the website. 

We have voluntarily deleted a few of our posts that could be detrimental to their business.
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August 24, 2015, 10:08:22 PM
 #1354

Sir - Provably Fair is 100% fair if you change the client seed, which you can do on Bitzino, CoinRoyale, BitcoinRush, and any other legit Bitcoin Casino out there.


I understand how the "Provably Fair" system works.  It is not full proof by any means.  Please refer to the link I posted earlier, it is easier to understand from Trevor.  I have quoted a portion of the Trevor/Libertaad conversation below'

"This is why we claim that the browser-based Provably Fair implementation is compromised. In fact, I believe you have alluded to that in your closing argument. If Provably Fair allows a "handful" (or more) of savvy users to ensure the house isn't cheating, and I can show that the remaining majority of users are still vulnerable to exploitation, then the system cannot be reasonably claimed as "fair" and, at the very least, cannot be "provable"."

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August 24, 2015, 10:20:46 PM
 #1355

Sir - Provably Fair is 100% fair if you change the client seed, which you can do on Bitzino, CoinRoyale, BitcoinRush, and any other legit Bitcoin Casino out there.


I understand how the "Provably Fair" system works.  It is not full proof by any means.  Please refer to the link I posted earlier, it is easier to understand from Trevor.  I have quoted a portion of the Trevor/Libertaad conversation below'

"This is why we claim that the browser-based Provably Fair implementation is compromised. In fact, I believe you have alluded to that in your closing argument. If Provably Fair allows a "handful" (or more) of savvy users to ensure the house isn't cheating, and I can show that the remaining majority of users are still vulnerable to exploitation, then the system cannot be reasonably claimed as "fair" and, at the very least, cannot be "provable"."

Most gambling websites you can change it, but its annoying changing it on every bet and most people just leave it as is for the entire session. There should be an "auto new client seed" option.

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August 25, 2015, 12:40:39 AM
 #1356

I have been playing at CoinRoyale since 2014 and lost many games at low stakes at the beginning and I was thinking they are cheating even with implementation of provably fair, but they reassured me and show me everything I asked for (hand data, guided me trough provably fair system, they even learned me how to play better), since then I had not any problems with them, when I was losing they credited me comps they even sent comp to my personal address. For every bug submitted I received a bug bounty. Received big comp for testing their new games. I got an answer on every email I sent to them.

If game freeze and you refresh page cards will be on first sit and client seed for new hand will be randomized.


CoinRoyale is the best!

StatsMan
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August 25, 2015, 01:32:23 AM
 #1357

I have been playing at CoinRoyale since 2014 and lost many games at low stakes at the beginning and I was thinking they are cheating even with implementation of provably fair, but they reassured me and show me everything I asked for (hand data, guided me trough provably fair system, they even learned me how to play better), since then I had not any problems with them, when I was losing they credited me comps they even sent comp to my personal address. For every bug submitted I received a bug bounty. Received big comp for testing their new games. I got an answer on every email I sent to them.

If game freeze and you refresh page cards will be on first sit and client seed for new hand will be randomized.


CoinRoyale is the best!


I don't doubt it, I have never seen any of those things but I am sure they provide them as most casinos do.  Maybe we are just small time - not exactly sure but I would estimate we have deposited 50 bitcoin in the last few weeks.
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August 25, 2015, 08:31:40 PM
 #1358

We want to make a statement about what we have posted recently.  We started this by looking into the stats of the hands dealt and noticed a few flaws.  Some of our post prior to this are accusatory and wrong.  For that we apologize, CoinRoyale has replied to our emails and righted possible wrongs.  

We retract any accusations and want to continue to work with them on the flaws of the website.  

We have voluntarily deleted a few of our posts that could be detrimental to their business.

Appreciate that. And yes, I've passed the "screen frozen" bug you mentioned to our technical team. Once we figure out how to reproduce it, it will be our first priority to fix it.

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August 25, 2015, 08:33:35 PM
 #1359

I have been playing at CoinRoyale since 2014 and lost many games at low stakes at the beginning and I was thinking they are cheating even with implementation of provably fair, but they reassured me and show me everything I asked for (hand data, guided me trough provably fair system, they even learned me how to play better), since then I had not any problems with them, when I was losing they credited me comps they even sent comp to my personal address. For every bug submitted I received a bug bounty. Received big comp for testing their new games. I got an answer on every email I sent to them.

If game freeze and you refresh page cards will be on first sit and client seed for new hand will be randomized.


CoinRoyale is the best!


Thank you! Best player ever Smiley

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August 27, 2015, 10:04:32 PM
 #1360

We want to make a statement about what we have posted recently.  We started this by looking into the stats of the hands dealt and noticed a few flaws...

No, you started by losing a bunch of coin and deciding you must of been cheated. 

Then you decided to look at the stats and find a way to prove what you already thought was true.
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