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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2761529 times)
loopgate88
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January 20, 2014, 11:18:36 PM
 #21581

Since proving one is where nothing can be known with certainty is very easy to manipulate our answer has to be will. Or better, one's will to be. The ones who will to prove they are, the ones who prove who they are, earn the right to vote. Meritocratic voting.

A simple example of this would be requiring the solution of a random number of captcha problems (between 35 and 55) for one vote. Thoughts?
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January 20, 2014, 11:21:46 PM
 #21582

I forgot what we have to vote for!
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January 20, 2014, 11:22:40 PM
 #21583

Since proving one is where nothing can be known with certainty is very easy to manipulate our answer has to be will. Or better, one's will to be. The ones who will to prove they are, the ones who prove who they are, earn the right to vote. Meritocratic voting.

A simple example of this would be requiring the solution of a random number of captcha problems (between 35 and 55) for one vote. Thoughts?

I'd probably kill someone before I finish that many.
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January 20, 2014, 11:24:07 PM
 #21584

Yeah, this is getting ridiculous, we usually fill 30 pages of voting arguments with no results.  I still think we need to keep it tied with AM, so it can be easily implemented into a client down the road.  Think of like this, I want to start a voting topic using weslyn web tool, I fill in the parameters, it creates a Nxt account specific to that topic, everyone votes by sending me a public AM "Yes" or "No".  I can then check for duplicates, blockchain height, etc.. when tallying votes.  The block chain wins because forgers are rewarded with Nxt used to vote.

Why do you need AM's here, when the site can check everything for you?

Compare the steps required to send AM to a specific account for a specific vote to going to a site and clicking a button.

All issues and all votes will be in one place, clearly visible to everyone, even without a NXT account.

And why do we need to load blockchain when we can avoid it?

Really, is it that difficult to send an AM?  We aren't bloating the blockchain, we are adding value to the POS system with forging rewards.  With public AM, all votes are there for the public to see, no manipulation.  Voting needs to cost 1 Nxt so people only vote on topics important to them.
smartwart
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January 20, 2014, 11:24:46 PM
 #21585

ahh Voting!
one of my favorite discussions ;-)

Currently read many good aspects here!
I think we need to consider most of them in beta Client.
More and more it becomes clear that there is not THE ONE way for VS.
But there are different poll-categories, e.g "assets-polls" is different category as "best button color-polls".

The poll initiator should be able to choose boundary conditions depending on poll-topic.
The poll boundary conditions need to be transparent during run time.
To be more constructive lets try to collect some "Voting Models":

general options:
- min. permitted Account Deposit
- min. permitted Account age (Blocks)
- poll duration (Blocks)
- Voting Fee

Voting Models
- 1 NXT        ==   1 Vote  { vote = Func(accountBalance) }
- 1 Account  ==  1 Vote   { vote = Func(accountBalance) =  0.5 * accountBalance}
- 1 NXT        ==   x Vote  { x = Func(accountBalance) =  polynom * accountBalance}

no claim to completeness!


We need to discuss selection options too:
[true]    [false]    [abstention]
I think [abstention] provides an important information too.
E.g. a high count of [abstention] tells the poll creator "interesting question buddy, but not this way!!!" ...


Please extent the "general options" and "voting models" ideas!!!
It makes sense to collect all to keep the overview.

The discussion about "selection options"  was already started by Anon136 and CIYAM...


What do you think about this idea for decentralized voting using biometric verification (voting @ the bottom): http://juliansarokin.com/100-years-the-future-of-government/



I think you point this to 'one user one account' issue for voting.
was just scrolling down your web page, interesting topic, need to think about (its late;-).

Biometrics are an issue if you need to identify a person for authorization.
Thats why spontaneous, I would connect this more to J-L's "hive" topic.
This would bring the synergy to implement an account<=>biometric identity connection and would be an enabler for something like this.

Don't sure about the effort to implement into protocol.
- I think its not an client issue?


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loopgate88
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January 20, 2014, 11:24:52 PM
 #21586

Since proving one is where nothing can be known with certainty is very easy to manipulate our answer has to be will. Or better, one's will to be. The ones who will to prove they are, the ones who prove who they are, earn the right to vote. Meritocratic voting.

A simple example of this would be requiring the solution of a random number of captcha problems (between 35 and 55) for one vote. Thoughts?

I'd probably kill someone before I finish that many.

Can't have something for nothing. How about a random number of captacha (or ReCapthca) problems between 25 and 35? Finding the right low number is the secret.
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January 20, 2014, 11:25:02 PM
 #21587

So you've decided the font size will give more weight to your idea?



People want a solution to A, I provide a solution to A, people ask for a solution to A without responding to my solution.
Do you see how this is annoying?

Can you find an issue with it? Why shouldn't this work? It filters out accounts made to control voting outcome and weights votes based on variables that people seem to be comfortable with.

If you guys don't want to use it, or can find a flaw, that's absolutely fine.

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January 20, 2014, 11:32:37 PM
 #21588

stupid (off-topic) question: where does "NRS" abbreviation come from?

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January 20, 2014, 11:33:54 PM
 #21589

I think the voting should be weighted with "PoS" aka 1 coin = 1 vote
NXT is a PoS coin,  so it's logical.

It's not great in itself but it's the best way possible.
Like BCnext say : "a world with money can't be perfect"

http://www.freebieservers.com/  100% FREE GAME SERVERS
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January 20, 2014, 11:35:19 PM
 #21590

Iris scanning and or fingerprints for identification.

We can ask NSA for help.
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January 20, 2014, 11:35:47 PM
 #21591

I think the voting should be weighted with "PoS" aka 1 coin = 1 vote
Like NXT

It's not great in itself but it's the best way possible.
Like BCnext say : "a world with money can't be perfect"
But better then this.
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January 20, 2014, 11:35:59 PM
 #21592

We have not even agreed upon the one human == one vote concept.

In theory that sounds wonderful, but in reality that means that frictionlesscoin would have as much weight as klee or CfB.

At the risk of sounding like an extremist, I want to have people like klee and CfB to have a LOT more weight than frictionlesscoin. does anybody disagree with this?

We need to agree on a basic framework before we have any chance of actually defining a one size fits all voting system.

If you also feel that some people should be more equal than others, that means that we need some sort of weighted voting system. Maybe we need to first vote on how much weight each person has? The votes for this could be weighed by how much NXT a person has. Since nobody has enough NXT to skew the results too much, as long as the max weight possible is a decent multiple of an unknown acct, we won't have to worry about sock puppets.

We can set the weight of an unknown acct to be 1. So, if this is the direction we want to go, then the first question is what is the max weight a single account will have? 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, one million?

If we can agree on a max weight, then we can have a chance at figuring out what weight each person has. I think it should be a publicly visible vote by handle.

James

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smartwart
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January 20, 2014, 11:36:28 PM
 #21593

ahh Voting!
one of my favorite discussions ;-)

Currently read many good aspects here!
I think we need to consider most of them in beta Client.
More and more it becomes clear that there is not THE ONE way for VS.
But there are different poll-categories, e.g "assets-polls" is different category as "best button color-polls".

The poll initiator should be able to choose boundary conditions depending on poll-topic.
The poll boundary conditions need to be transparent during run time.
To be more constructive lets try to collect some "Voting Models":

general options:
- min. permitted Account Deposit
- min. permitted Account age (Blocks)
- poll duration (Blocks)
- Voting Fee

Voting Models
- 1 NXT        ==   1 Vote  { vote = Func(accountBalance) }
- 1 Account  ==  1 Vote   { vote = Func(accountBalance) =  0.5 * accountBalance}
- 1 Account  ==  1 Vote   { Jcsarokrin Biometric Authenification: http://juliansarokin.com/100-years-the-future-of-government/}
- 1 NXT        ==   x Vote  { x = Func(accountBalance) =  polynom * accountBalance}
- coolmist  {votingweight = ( 1 / similarity ) ^ (4/3) * (accountbalance)^(1/3) * (accountage)^2 (timesvoted)^(3/2)}


no claim to completeness!


We need to discuss selection options too:
[true]    [false]    [abstention]
I think [abstention] provides an important information too.
E.g. a high count of [abstention] tells the poll creator "interesting question buddy, but not this way!!!" ...


Please extent the "general options" and "voting models" ideas!!!
It makes sense to collect all to keep the overview.

The discussion about "selection options"  was already started by Anon136 and CIYAM...




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NxtChg
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January 20, 2014, 11:37:19 PM
 #21594

Really, is it that difficult to send an AM?  We aren't bloating the blockchain, we are adding value to the POS system with forging rewards.  With public AM, all votes are there for the public to see, no manipulation.  Voting needs to cost 1 Nxt so people only vote on topics important to them.

Votes will be on the site too, even easier to see than going through all the messages in different accounts.

You suggest a complicated scheme with little to no advantage over a site. If the payment is involved, the site can do it too.

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gbeirn
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January 20, 2014, 11:37:32 PM
 #21595

stupid (off-topic) question: where does "NRS" abbreviation come from?

NXT Reference Software

NXT VPS Server Donations can be sent here: 6044921191674841550
At the end of each month I will donate some of them back to the community.
This is separate from my main wallet so you can keep track of them. I will keep them in there and only use them for hosting.
NxtChg
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January 20, 2014, 11:38:22 PM
 #21596

Can't have something for nothing. How about a random number of captacha (or ReCapthca) problems between 25 and 35? Finding the right low number is the secret.

PoW in voting has the same fundamental drawback of wasting valuable resources.

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January 20, 2014, 11:41:17 PM
 #21597

Really, is it that difficult to send an AM?  We aren't bloating the blockchain, we are adding value to the POS system with forging rewards.  With public AM, all votes are there for the public to see, no manipulation.  Voting needs to cost 1 Nxt so people only vote on topics important to them.

Votes will be on the site too, even easier to see than going through all the messages in different accounts.

You suggest a complicated scheme with little to no advantage over a site. If the payment is involved, the site can do it too.

Are you developing the site as we speak?

I'm suggesting keeping our voting system within the Nxt blockchain, where it belongs, so it can be implemented into a client in the future.  You are the one talking about developing a website to handle all of this, that is more complicated then opening a Nxt account and sending AM's to that account.  
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January 20, 2014, 11:43:39 PM
 #21598

So much debate Cheesy

I want to make one thing clear: 1 account = 1 vote will never work, no matter what kind of tweaking or scaling we use to limit large holder's voting power. They will simply create more accounts. This is not disputed, correct? In this scenario (1 account = 1 vote) large holders will actually have more power because they can afford to pay more fees to make new accounts than small holders. Setting a time-lock (ie. account has to be active 1440 blocks before voting starts) does not work as well. What is preventing a large holder making 100000 accounts right now so he can use those 100000 accounts to vote on all future issues (since these accounts are older than 1440 blocks). In any case, in the end, the network will fragment to ~1 billion accounts with 1 NXT each so everyone has the maximum voting power... not ideal.

On the other hand, 1 NXT = 1 vote is the most pure, simplest and non-gameable method that will nearly always vote in the best interest of NXT as a whole. As for the argument that large stakeholders aren't necessarily properly informed to make decisions, that is untrue. If someone has a large stake in NXT, it is guaranteed they will at least do some research before they vote. They will not randomly chose an option that may hurt their holdings. Small stakeholder will not care as much, since he has much less at risk. So in actuality, small stakeholders are the most likely to just randomly vote and pick the one that sounds the best without research.

So far, I have said why I think why large stakeholders will always have NXT's best interest in heart. 1 NXT = 1 vote will also prevent network fragmentation, as there is no incentive to create millions of puppet accounts. But to think on the other side of the coin... What if we remove this incentive to make puppet accounts?

What if we implement a two-tiered voting system? (Sounds like congress...) The "Senate" will comprise of 1 NXT = 1 Vote, and the "House" will comprise of 1 Account = 1 Vote. The poll-maker can set any options he wants (such as: for a very important vote to pass, requires 70% Senate approval and 75% House approval), but ideally, 51% Senate approval and 51% House approval will suffice for a true consensus.

So how will this remove the incentive to make a large amount of puppet accounts? If a large holder decides split his stake up, then he will lose some portion of his stake due to fees, thus reducing his Senate voting power in the process of increasing his house voting power. As the number of accounts increases due to legit new users coming into the system, the stakeholder will have to keep making new accounts to game the House votes. But if he does this, he will be constantly decreasing his Senate voting power and effectively, through fees, increase other's Senate voting power. Every new account he makes, he gives up 1 NXT (fees) + 1 NXT (the forger of the block with his fee) = 2 NXT of voting power in the Senate. So while this won't eliminate puppet accounts completely, it will effectively put a limit on how many accounts a large stakeholder can make. In the future, if we have millions of legitimate users with millions accounts, it will cost the large holders a lot of Senate voting power just to game the House votes.

Still, I don't know if I particularly like this idea, as there will still be some puppet accounts, and according to game theory, everyone will have to create a certain number of puppet accounts in order to compete. But it is much better than simply 1 Account = 1 Vote. Also, there is the issue of a deadlock, where one of the tiers could have a majority and the other does not. How to solve that?

But that was only one idea. I would support 1 Account = 1 Vote if the proposed system would completely remove incentives to make puppet accounts. Otherwise, the system will be gamed. I would rather have 1 NXT = 1 Vote than millions of accounts with 1 NXT because of 1 Account = 1 Vote.

Which brings me to this:

As previously stated, if you try to put limits on how much stake someone can use to vote than a whale will simply break his stake up into multiple accounts. If you try to say that you get 1 vote per account than fraudsters will make a zillion accounts with one nxt each. I think your judgment may be clouded by what you would like to be the case.

I have a solution that will allow almost complete fairness and can identify accounts being controlled by a singular user/group to change the result.

I think this  a perfect time to use weak artificial intelligence algorithms.
I am all ears!

Currently developing the algorithm. It needs multiple voting events to start working.

This is the simplest explanation I can give without a coded application to demonstrate.

additional variable that needs to be added, amount of times an account has voted.

initialvoteWeight = (other variables)(1 / similarity)^2(TotalAccountVotes)

this prevents people from creating a new account each time to vote, or rather it docks them voting power

First vote will be initiated and completed.

"Banks" of accounts that have voted will be created for each option after each vote.

Bank A will always contain the accounts of the winning vote

bankA1[accounts[1-100]] 100 votes + accounts x, y, and z votes.
bankB1[accounts[101-150]] 50 votes

Bank A1 won by 66%

Second vote will commence

"Banks" of accounts that have voted will be created for each option after each vote.

bankA2[accounts[1-75 and 100-109]]  85 votes + accounts x, y, and z votes.

bankB2[accounts[76-99 and 110-150]] 65 votes

Bank A2 won by 56%


third vote will commence

"Banks" of accounts that have voted will be created for each option after each vote.

bankA3[accounts[1-35, 51-75 and 90-150]]  120 votes + accounts x and y votes.

bankB3[accounts[36-50 and 76-89]] 30 votes

BankA3 won by 80%

----

This will be translated into repeat and if statements soon.

if bankA1 contains account[z and x and y] and bankA2 contains account[z and x and y] and bankA3 contains account[z and x and y] set similarity of accounts z, x and y to similarity + 1
Code:
similarity[z] = 1
similarity[x] = 1
similarity[y] = 1
Set totalAccountVotes of account[z and x and y] to totalAccountVotes + 1

end if

if bankA1 contains account[x and y] and bankA2 contains account[x and y] and bankA3 contains account[x and y] and bankA4 contains account[x and y]

set similarity to similarity + 1
Code:
similarity[z] = 1
similarity[x] = 2
similarity[y] = 2

essentially voting power of z will be 4 times higher than x or y. This is just a rough construct of my idea.



This sounds interesting, a method to vote by account, but removes the incentive to make a ton of new accounts? I'm not sure if I grasp the bottomline of this implementation, can you state in words how this will prevent someone from making a ton of accounts? Lastly, how can you calculate similarity? Can't someone can just put their coins through a mixer/exchange?

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NxtChg
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January 20, 2014, 11:44:35 PM
 #21599

At the risk of sounding like an extremist, I want to have people like klee and CfB to have a LOT more weight than frictionlesscoin. does anybody disagree with this?

The problem here is wealth disparity is much larger than intellect disparity.

If I have $10 and Bill Gates has 50 billion, does this mean he's 5 billion times smarter than me?

So we need a "compressor" function and that can be gamed by splitting wealth into multiple accounts to get "optimal" voting power.

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January 20, 2014, 11:44:52 PM
 #21600


We can set the weight of an unknown acct to be 1. So, if this is the direction we want to go, then the first question is what is the max weight a single account will have? 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, one million?

If we can agree on a max weight, then we can have a chance at figuring out what weight each person has. I think it should be a publicly visible vote by handle.

James

Perhaps the only way to assign weight to votes without resorting to stake volume is to allow the community itself define that weight.

Besides a public key as a basic requirement, this reminds of the planned (?) rep system, which could be a measure of weight. Then the burden shifts onto when and how rep points can be awarded, but it might be another way to mix democracy and meritocracy.
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