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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2761621 times)
ChuckOne
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February 13, 2014, 10:39:35 PM
 #33301


Oh, yes. The kiddies over there will burn the house. No NXTs available.
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February 13, 2014, 10:40:08 PM
 #33302


In the bright side of things, almost simultaneously we find out that porn giants embrace BTC.

I believe in the end everything will be more than okay.
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February 13, 2014, 10:41:17 PM
 #33303


In the bright side of things, almost simultaneously we find out that porn giants embrace BTC.

I believe in the end everything will be more than okay.

Does that mean its now considered a hard currency?  Huh

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February 13, 2014, 10:49:04 PM
 #33304


In the bright side of things, almost simultaneously we find out that porn giants embrace BTC.

I believe in the end everything will be more than okay.

Does that mean its now considered a hard currency?  Huh

"An awful lot of code is being written ... in languages that aren't very good by people who don't know what they're doing." -- Barbara Liskov
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February 13, 2014, 10:50:24 PM
 #33305

We plan on working with the marketing department to really push the Trekcon info into the mainstream. One idea to celebrate the opportunity is to have a fund raiser for a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization such as SongsofLove.  Not only is it a fantastic opportunity to serve the community, it's something publications could write a story around.

I've worked with SongsofLove in the past through Peercoin, I'll touch base with them later today.

CoinTropolis is busting #$@#$@ for Nxt!
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February 13, 2014, 10:54:13 PM
 #33306

http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/12/jed-mccaleb/
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February 13, 2014, 11:00:07 PM
 #33307

CfB and Jean-Luc,

"Hello John,

I was looking at the API but it seems like there aren't any APIs for bulk
usage; like returning all of the transactions for all of the accounts held
by the node or the balances of all the accounts. Everything has to be
queried one by one, which I guess wouldn't be a big deal in the early
stages but once there is more volume would be very inefficient.

I haven't looked at the code yet though, so it may not be that hard for me
to add those API calls.

-CoinPayments.net"


Please comment and I'll get that process moving with CoinPayments.
Querying many accounts at once will be slow even if done on the server side, it will be better to have a way to subscribe for notifications when the balance of an account changes. Currently this is not possible with the http API, only with the direct Java API (i.e., you would need to write Java code to talk to the server).

Also not sure what he means by "all of the accounts held by the node" - each node has information about all existing accounts on the blockchain, so it is not a very useful query.

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Nxt blockchain platform | Ardor blockchain platform | Ignis ICO
Jean-Luc
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February 13, 2014, 11:02:23 PM
 #33308

So what's likely up with these peers:

Code:
...
87.98.163.78      -    0    2'252'772 B   10'260 B    ? (?) @ ?
185.12.44.108     -    0    110'330 B     1'288 B     ? (?) @ ?
23.88.104.217     -    0    166'340 B     1'498 B     ? (?) @ ?
82.209.203.82     -    0    500'940 B     1'857 B     ? (?) @ ?
198.211.127.34    -    0    159'320 B     1'412 B     ? (?) @ ?
...

Nothing. Just a bug in setting the correct peer info, mostly a cosmetic problem. Fixed in 0.7.5.

lead Nxt developer, gpg key id: 0x811D6940E1E4240C
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mczarnek
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February 13, 2014, 11:04:49 PM
Last edit: February 13, 2014, 11:20:18 PM by mczarnek
 #33309

I hear the people in this topic have decided to switch to a 0.1 Nxt fee?  I've done some math and that would be only be enough to allow use to break even if we had ~50 forgers at a time.  Point is, it's way too low.

Fee structure proposal
0.4% transaction fee
0.05 Nxt per message
30 Nxt per alias registration

Didn't want to clog up this forum with a long post plus it would be really nice if we could start using other forums instead of everything in one place, no matter how loosely related.

Point is, here's the math and reasoning to back this up:
https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=785

Please go comment and let me know what you think about these numbers!

That is not a good idea. We don't need forgers to have a positive ROI. Most nodes do run now with negative ROI and it is in the intrerest of each NXT holder to secure the network. Don't forget that we are in the early stage of adoption and the system needs to be bigger to become selfsustainable. If we don't lower the fee significantly, we will not grow as much as most of us would like.

Also it is a community consensus to lower the fee to 0.1 NXT.

My 2 NXT cents

+ my 2 cents now equals 4 cents.

The time for positive ROI will come. It's important. People need to have a reasonable expectation that there will be ROI from forging in the future. But at this time we need to keep our fees low to encourage adoption and forgers should be willing to forge at a loss for the sake of protecting the network they have invested so much time, energy, and resources into.

Good points!  I was thinking that this would be temporary solution and we would temporarily re-adjust every few months until we are sustainable and can make our own prices separate from fiat.  Plus just using it for now because it makes a good reference point.  And we may have to play with the transaction fees to determine the ideal number.

But here it is updated to reflect feedback.

Revised fee structure proposal
0.03% with a cap of 0.6 Nxt
0.01 Nxt per message (Can't go and lower and we'll get to the point this is profitable no doubt.. at which point we'll likely adjust back down)
30 Nxt per alias registration (it needs to be higher than 1 Nxt, and people will pay it after all for alias's important to them.. plus it's a different kind of investment that will also gain value alongside Nxt).  This should be adjusted down later.
My thought is basically that personally, I selfishly figure that I'll end up with more Nxt if I don't pay extra on the electric bill right now, I can instead buy a few extra Nxt with it.. maybe other people aren't pinching pennies to that extent.

Bigger point though, I think it should be a percentage fee..  because I can imagine that there are some scenarios that would need tiny amounts of Nxt sent between people, for example I came up with idea of an ad server that would run on the network and involve a bunch of microtransactions of about 0.02 Nxt each.. you can't afford to pay 0.1 Nxt for each transaction.. I don't know if I'm going to run with that idea yet but point is, it should be doable to do transactions of less than 1 Nxt in my opinion.  For that matter you should be able to give someone 0.002 Nxt for 'penny' candy, once we grow to Bitcoin's size and not be hit with a 0.1 Nxt fee.  So if we're talking sustainable, let's talk percentages.

Let's say we go with an average fee of 0.1 Nxt, It'd be a transaction fee of approximately 0.02%, plus I still say messaging and alias registration should be separate.

So, quick numbers, let's say we want to be profitable at Bitcoins size and pretend we'll behave better. Bitcoin currently has a market cap of $7,900,000,000, coinmarketcap.com, and transaction volume of $50 million according to blockchain.info.  Let's say we want to make $7 per forger since we will definitely need to be able to afford DDOS protect of about $7 per day (unless project Kharon fixes that!), and want 1,000 forgers at that size?  Because by that point, pointed pooled forging will be around. So it would be 1000 pools on individual computers, not individuals.. of course with pooled forging you'll be paying a fee to the person loaning you the ability to forge on their machine.. so we'll need to readjust number.  Let's say right now for the sake of argument and this may be low, we say that the pooled forging add an extra 7$ because you'll only receive half of your income due to various people who forging on your machine? And of course some of that $7 would be yours and just not part of the cost to run the machine that is split amongst people.

$14 * 1,000 = $14,000 per day

$14,000/$50 million = 0.03%  Ok.. yeah that's tiny.

There are approximately 60,000 transactions per day for Bitcoin, so $50 million in transaction / 60,000 transactions = approx $800 per average transaction.

0.0003 * $800 = $0.24 per transaction.  At Bitcoin's size 0.1 Nxt would equal $0.80  So we'd probably lower it half way there again but that would be reasonable.

So if we can afford to wait until we are Bitcoins size and want a fixed cost maybe 0.1 Nxt is about right, little low in my opinion.. but I would much rather a percentage cost.. because it allows microtransactions and if you want a cap since sending a lot of money all at once isn't any more work for the network.. we we grow to Bitcoin's size it'd be nice if I could send someone the equivalent of $0.10 without it costing $0.80, or even send $20 for less than $0.10 that credit cards currently charge. If you used percentage fee, then $20 * 0.0003 = 0.6 cents to give some one $20 worth of money.

There are approximately 60,000 transactions per day for Bitcoin, so $50 million in transaction / 60,000 transactions = approx $800 per average transaction.  So where do we cap it? $800 would cost 0.16 cents to send at this rate, which seems very reasonable.  Let's say we cap it at 0.6 Nxt, because that means you would hit that cap at 2000 Nxt. (Meaning at Bitcoin's size, it'd cost $4.8 to send $16,000)

What do you think about percentage fee vs fixed fee? And I'll grant you.. you guys were right I was wrong.. mostly, I feel strongly about it being a percentage over a fixed fee and the more I crunch numbers the better I feel about Nxt's future:)

Plus regarding the percentage thing.. people still hear that Peercoin has a fixed 0.1 PPC fee and even though Sunny has said that he doesn't think it'll be fixed to remain there, people trolling on PPC always point at it as if it's a fixed fee that makes PPC unsustainable.. percentage fee gives them confidence that it'll always be a low fee no matter how the price changes.  And 0.03% sounds smaller than 0.1 Nxt.

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EvilDave
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February 13, 2014, 11:06:35 PM
 #33310

So much good news today....all the effort of the last few weeks is beginning to pay off.
You guys familiar with the term tipping point, as referring to a chaotic system ?
I think NXT just hit a tipping point within the crypto community, from possible scam to serious contender.
Onwards and upwards from here, hodl and buy in if ya can.


Here's my spot of Latin for a NXT slogan:

non deorum, non reges, iustus NXT

No gods, no kings, just NXT
(corrections welcome)


And for the sarcastic NXT t-shirt design:

NXT: We are so de-centralised, we wait 3 months for a client then five turn up together.


BTW:Good work on the clients, all of u....

....and I, for one, welcome our new DGEX overlords.



Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
Love your money: www.nxt.org  www.ardorplatform.org
www.nxter.org  www.nxtfoundation.org
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February 13, 2014, 11:06:48 PM
 #33311

this is much more interesting than it seems at first. having private data sections within code would solve many
problems, e.g. to create real smart software agents and also fully trustless gateways.

for those interested in this:
http://bitcoinmagazine.com/10055/cryptographic-code-obfuscation-decentralized-autonomous-organizations-huge-leap-forward/

Thx for the link, the article contained a link that I was looking for - to fully homomorphic encryption that could be used for Coin Mixing.
How?  
What you want is called Secure Function Evaluation. Fully homomorphic encryption just means you can execute a function on someone else's computer and they don't know what you computed, but you still know everything. At least, in theory, in practice this is way too slow.  

http://www.proproco.co.uk/million.html -> unfortunately, Yao's solution is interactive (they require constant cooperation between all parties)
A possible solution is presented in http://www.iacr.org/archive/eurocrypt2000/1807/18070340-new.pdf

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February 13, 2014, 11:08:34 PM
 #33312


....and I, for one, welcome our new DGEX overlords.


  Cheesy

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February 13, 2014, 11:10:08 PM
 #33313


OK, this is my cue to update status of community gateways. Keep in mind I am talking about the first step along the path toward fully automated DAC solution. No need to wait for that if we can get a more traditional solution in the meantime.


James,

on gateways I am a little confused as to how you want them to work.
So If I want to buy LTC with BTC via gateways.

I deposit BTC with a BTC gateway under my NXT account ID
Someone has deposited LTC with an LTC gateway under their NXT account ID
They have also posted an exchange offer for an LTC/BTC exchange.

I submit a request to buy the LTC at the offered rate.

The BTC gateway creates a transaction to move the required BTC held under my NTX account ID to the NXT account ID of the LTC seller
The LTC gateway creates a transaction to move the required LTC held under the seller NXT Account ID to my NXT account ID.
The gateways would exchange the transaction IDs which would contain the buyer/seller NXT account IDs
Only when both transactions were confirmed the exchanges would release the LTC and BTC held under the NXT account IDs on those gateways.

This would require some trust/verification between the gateways?
Would the transactions appear against the NXT accounts?
Assume fee's would be in NXT or would they be in BTC/LTC?
Who's keys sign the transactions?

I've probably got this wrong but I'm trying to figure out how between the gateways you would create a contract that could ensure completion on both sides.

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February 13, 2014, 11:23:45 PM
 #33314

plz send me any coins in testnet 8934589681199444737
thanks guys
xyzzyx
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February 13, 2014, 11:24:04 PM
 #33315

Here's my spot of Latin for a NXT slogan:

non deorum, non reges, iustus NXT

No gods, no kings, just NXT
(corrections welcome)

You know, I think the original "no gods, no kings, just us" works too -- especially considering that Nxt will likely become a foundation upon which other currencies ride.  The "just us" is all-inclusive.

Just a thought.

"An awful lot of code is being written ... in languages that aren't very good by people who don't know what they're doing." -- Barbara Liskov
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February 13, 2014, 11:24:56 PM
 #33316

CfB and Jean-Luc,

"Hello John,

I was looking at the API but it seems like there aren't any APIs for bulk
usage; like returning all of the transactions for all of the accounts held
by the node or the balances of all the accounts. Everything has to be
queried one by one, which I guess wouldn't be a big deal in the early
stages but once there is more volume would be very inefficient.

I haven't looked at the code yet though, so it may not be that hard for me
to add those API calls.

-CoinPayments.net"


Please comment and I'll get that process moving with CoinPayments.
Querying many accounts at once will be slow even if done on the server side, it will be better to have a way to subscribe for notifications when the balance of an account changes. Currently this is not possible with the http API, only with the direct Java API (i.e., you would need to write Java code to talk to the server).

Also not sure what he means by "all of the accounts held by the node" - each node has information about all existing accounts on the blockchain, so it is not a very useful query.

Thank you Jean-Luc and CfB, information passed on to CoinPayments.
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February 13, 2014, 11:26:45 PM
 #33317


OK, this is my cue to update status of community gateways. Keep in mind I am talking about the first step along the path toward fully automated DAC solution. No need to wait for that if we can get a more traditional solution in the meantime.


James,

on gateways I am a little confused as to how you want them to work.
So If I want to buy LTC with BTC via gateways.

I deposit BTC with a BTC gateway under my NXT account ID
Someone has deposited LTC with an LTC gateway under their NXT account ID
They have also posted an exchange offer for an LTC/BTC exchange.

I submit a request to buy the LTC at the offered rate.

The BTC gateway creates a transaction to move the required BTC held under my NTX account ID to the NXT account ID of the LTC seller
The LTC gateway creates a transaction to move the required LTC held under the seller NXT Account ID to my NXT account ID.
The gateways would exchange the transaction IDs which would contain the buyer/seller NXT account IDs
Only when both transactions were confirmed the exchanges would release the LTC and BTC held under the NXT account IDs on those gateways.

This would require some trust/verification between the gateways?
Would the transactions appear against the NXT accounts?
Assume fee's would be in NXT or would they be in BTC/LTC?
Who's keys sign the transactions?

I've probably got this wrong but I'm trying to figure out how between the gateways you would create a contract that could ensure completion on both sides.

you send btc*1 to bob. bob sends BobsBtcToken*1 to you. you go onto the orderbook for BobsBtcTokens and fill a buy order. Nxt appears in your account. Now you find a ltc gateway. Say betty seems the most trustworthy. Fill a sell order for BettysLtcTokens. Receive BettysLtcTokens*X. Send BettysLtcTokens*X to Betty's nxt address with a message containing your ltc address. Wait for ltc to arrive.

It seems overly complicated now but it'll feel natural once it gets rolling and everyone gets used to it. All steps serve their purpose, these extra steps are the cost of decentralization.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
ChuckOne
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February 13, 2014, 11:27:31 PM
 #33318

Just to have it posted here as well, even if it is somewhat offtopic right now recognizing all these latin quotes: https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=530&p=3729#p3729

Don't know what the plans are on the side of CfB, JL and BCNext.

-------------------------------------

I prefer the (1 NXT fee = 1) voting system.

I'd like to explain why:

Many of you suggest a playable system as insofar as splitting and merging of accounts will occur as the shareholders see fit in order to vote appropriately.
On the one hand side, splitting and merging of accounts is a good thing as the more NXTs are distributed.
But on the other hand side: it's just teasing shareholders. They have more effort to split and to merge their accounts.

Well, if you still want a playable system because you assume some fair-thinking of the shareholders, that's okay.

BUT, if we assume fairness of the shareholders, we could easily conclude that they would vote fairly within the (1 NXT balance = 1 vote) or (1 NXT fee = 1 vote) system as well.

Fair voting would mean: a shareholder would only put that much NXT on one option that it is worth to him.

In case of (1 NXT balance = 1 vote): he creates a new account, puts the NXTs he wants to throw into the vote in that account and votes.

in case of (1 NXT fee = 1 vote): he simply pays the amount of fees that an option is worth to him.

This is why I prefer the (1 NXT fee = 1 vote) system. Just in case the shareholders want to vote fairly, they can do it effortlessly in this system. If they do not want, they can do in every system.
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February 13, 2014, 11:28:02 PM
 #33319

Here's my spot of Latin for a NXT slogan:

non deorum, non reges, iustus NXT

No gods, no kings, just NXT
(corrections welcome)

You know, I think the original "no gods, no kings, just us" works too -- especially considering that Nxt will likely become a foundation upon which other currencies ride.  The "just us" is all-inclusive.

Just a thought.
Works for me....lets go for "just us".

Now, we need someone who actually knows Latin for a grammar check...I'm not totally sure if Google translate is trustworthy.  Huh

Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
Love your money: www.nxt.org  www.ardorplatform.org
www.nxter.org  www.nxtfoundation.org
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February 13, 2014, 11:30:29 PM
 #33320

plz send me any coins in testnet 8934589681199444737
thanks guys

Sent 10k
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