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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2755813 times)
allwelder
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February 14, 2014, 08:48:24 AM
 #33501


you send btc*1 to bob. bob sends BobsBtcToken*1 to you. you go onto the orderbook for BobsBtcTokens and fill a buy order. Nxt appears in your account. Now you find a ltc gateway. Say betty seems the most trustworthy. Fill a sell order for BettysLtcTokens. Receive BettysLtcTokens*X. Send BettysLtcTokens*X to Betty's nxt address with a message containing your ltc address. Wait for ltc to arrive.

It seems overly complicated now but it'll feel natural once it gets rolling and everyone gets used to it. All steps serve their purpose, these extra steps are the cost of decentralization.

If I read this right - 'No escrow' or atomic completion?
so buyer beware....
Keep in mind this is the first step on the path toward fully automated DAC gateways. Also, to remove the confusion that is inherent in having many different Assets that are all representing the same thing I think it is crucial that we consolidate all assets of the same denomination to a single community asset. This will allow all users to go to a single asset name within AE for BTC and ALL the bids and asks for BTC within AE will be for BTC backed by the federation of gateways. All the federation members take blood oaths, trade first born children, etc. so they work out a way to trust each other. This shifts the risk of choosing the right gateway from the hapless end user who has no clue which gateway is better to each gateway itself. A much better chance of making correct decisions. In the event one of the gateways is lacking somehow, the other gateways could require posting of a bond to cover the risk.

HOWEVER, I think I might have a way to allow all the gateways to trust each other without any bodily parts being involved. I do need somebody who is familiar with multisig to confirm this, or more likely correct where I am being plain silly.

I do not see a problem with deposits of crypto, the end user sends in the crypto to a deposit address and the gateway sweeps it into an account. The problem is with the withdrawal, eg. since I am proposing all assets that represent BTC be fungible with each other, each gateway needs to have access to potentially all the actual BTC.

So, we have a possible solution where all the gateways sweep into a common account. Wait! If all gateways are able to withdraw from it, then if ANY gateway gets hacked or hypnotized by Evil Bob, all the deposits are gone. Not good at all.

This is where I think multisig comes in. What if the sweep account is a multisig acct. All the gateways can easily sweep into the multisig acct, since it is just a matter of sending coin to the right address. Now on withdraw, if we required the signatures from all gateways to do a withdrawal (or super majority?), then no gateway would be able to take off with the deposits, unless all gateways (or super majority) turn evil at the same time.

No I dont know how multisig works well enough to know if this will work, but IF there is a way to do a safe remote multisig authorization and all the gateways are using the same business logic to approve withdrawals, eg. proper AM was sent with appropriate asset, then I think this could work.

Not totally trustless, but as long as all (or super majority) of gateways dont spontaneously turn evil, I think the community would be able to rely on the federation of gateways.

I hope somebody that knows about multisig and another somebody that knows about secure remote signing will be able to validate this, or fix it so it works

James

P.S. I just figured out that we can use a set of AM's for secure remote signing. Granted it is a lot of AM to send if we had to do it for each withdrawal, so maybe we only invoke this level when the amount is larger than the bond put up by the gateway. I think this is getting close to a real solution. Smart guys, please help!!
IMO,it is like XRP gateway.Right?

just like it only without a central point of weakness
And fully automated gateways that automatically peer review each other AND is guaranteed to be 100% backed by actual BTC and nobody has to fiddle with trustlines, etc. This is just like XRP except everything is better!

Since nobody that knows exactly how multisig works, I will try to read up on it and see if this really does the trick. If it does, that means we get somewhat decentralized automatic gateways that we can can trust. All the gateway deposits and withdrawals will be publicly viewable, so there are no controversies in that area. If ever anything like lophie is going happened, it would just be a matter of looking in the NXT blockchain, reparse the AM's and find out where it went.

We probably need to have some sort of manual "fix it" mechanism, but this should be a pretty rare event. All the gateways would have to work together to clear this up. Maybe all minus 1, in case one of the gateways goes MIA, wouldn't want all the funds to become inaccessible. Maybe a deadman's switch can be invoked in case one of the gateways goes away and the key delivered to an independent party. I heard about an electronic escrow service that can be setup for this.

Notice that even if one of the gateways goes defunct, nobody loses anything. At that point, the missing gateways passkey  would be used one last time to transfer all the funds to a new account with appropriate new multisig signers. So no gateway can withdraw any money that all the other gateways dont approve. It seems safer than any centralized exchange to me, but I hope someone more versed in this stuff will comment.

The more I think about this, the more I think it could work. I just wish I knew more details about how multisig works...

James
any detailed info about multisig?
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February 14, 2014, 08:55:33 AM
 #33502

any detailed info about multisig?
I found some info about being able to sign a transaction and then pass it onto the next signer, also nobody is calling me a total idiot. I think that is a good sign Smiley

The biggest remaining problem is how to deal with the scenario of a gateway disappearing. Actually one disappearing is easy, the remaining gateways would have to stop all transaction processing. Create a new multisig acct without the missing gateway and then transfer the balance into the new acct. Restart transaction processing.

What if two gateways go missing? Then if we are using N-1 signers, all the funds are locked. So, we probably need a way for each gateway to prove that they have put into escrow their private key and some secure method of unlocking an escrowed key in the event of disappearance.

Its almost 6am and I think I made decent progress on this today, so I will leave it to the European zone to make it all nice and happy.

James

P.S. Do not worry about the seemingly cumbersome process of sending AM from one gateway to the next, it will all be automatic and being in the NXT blockchain makes everything transparent. Just the way BCNext wants it!

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February 14, 2014, 08:55:38 AM
 #33503

i understand how multisig works. thats not the confusing part. its the idea of people honouring each others obligations and doing multisig. when i think of federating i think of people honouring each others agreements but then clearing their balances with each other periodically. so like if you and i federated and we issued 10 silver bars each. and then all 20 bars were redeemed through my gateway. you would owe me 10 silver bars. you would send the bars and then the balances would be cleared. we were able to federate because i trusted you.

oooh i get it now. i see why the wires were getting crossed. if you did a multisig account you wouldn’t be federating you would be incorporating!

Can we get a balance where the federation of the gateways ensures the integrity of the transaction without becoming liable for the asset?

What I tried to get across in my reply to James a few pages back (which you kindly responded to) was the transaction is a contracts between the buyer and the seller and gateways cooperate to enforce the escrow / atomicity of the transaction and asset being transferred for which the gateways get a fee.

Firstly for this to work each maybe you need gateway relationship to be verified bi-laterally, i.e. a gateway to gateway trust relationship is pre-established, I am not sure this exists in the Ripple model which is why I think there is a problem - is this what you mean by federation.

Each buyer and seller legitimise the asset with each gateway involved e.g. deposit asset in escrow or reserve somehow.
The buyer sends the transaction request to the sellers gateway to buy the asset (with the relevant buy/sell asset ids from each gateway)
The sellers gateway initiates a transaction on the block chain which is seen by buyers gateway and this is validated by forging as legitimate (e.g. 10 confirms?)
The buyers gateway then confirms the transaction by re-submitting again to be validated by forging to confirm the buyer honours the contract.
The two gateways can then release the escrow asset to the buyer and seller respectively.
The transaction ledger could be the NXT blockchain, once the transaction is validated by forging the seller gateway releases the asset to the buyer and the buyer gateway releases the asset to the seller.
The buyer/seller gateways would get their fees from the buyer/seller respectively
There is a NXT fee for each of the transactions involved.

What  I am trying to achieve is the gateways are acting to ensure the safe transfer of an asset between two parties but maybe this is too hard complicated?
For widespread adoption there needed to be trust in the integrity of the transaction and that should be down to whether Anon, Bob or Sally tokens have a different trust level.
Without some level of transaction legitimacy validated by NXT itself I fear we would have a massive dispute resolution problem with scam buyers as much of a problem as scam sellers.

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salsacz
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February 14, 2014, 08:57:28 AM
 #33504

Here's my spot of Latin for a NXT slogan:

non deorum, non reges, iustus NXT

No gods, no kings, just NXT
(corrections welcome)

You know, I think the original "no gods, no kings, just us" works too -- especially considering that Nxt will likely become a foundation upon which other currencies ride.  The "just us" is all-inclusive.

Just a thought.
Works for me....lets go for "just us".

Now, we need someone who actually knows Latin for a grammar check...I'm not totally sure if Google translate is trustworthy.  Huh

Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum Nxt

Nxt tips: NXT-R67P-6BZ2-XWAK-8RHZR | Nxt forum | Nxt Academy | Donate for Nxt at the Universities // BTCD: RVMLrnxYYy7uy8YZo9FcGfXbk1ZMnNifdg
longzai1988
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February 14, 2014, 08:58:30 AM
 #33505



DAMN ! I lost my 200k NXTs  Embarrassed

sweet & happy cryptocurrency , cheers Smiley
NXT : NXT-HSBE-8PWL-CUCD-BHUD6
BTCD : RTaMoRXsA7uCv869dX1TfCZmHw4ExbMVmQ
allwelder
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February 14, 2014, 08:59:02 AM
 #33506

I want to inform you all that bter indeed sent me my 100k already. Thanks for all that helped. So basically the drone in charge of support@bter.com cannot access any information and simply replies out of thier ass, After serious emails back and forth and many information submitted by from thier own systems, They gave in and actually forwarded my complain to the people in charge, was solved a couple of hours afterwards.

- Lophie
Congratulations
mcjavar
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February 14, 2014, 09:01:47 AM
 #33507

I want to inform you all that bter indeed sent me my 100k already. Thanks for all that helped. So basically the drone in charge of support@bter.com cannot access any information and simply replies out of thier ass, After serious emails back and forth and many information submitted by from thier own systems, They gave in and actually forwarded my complain to the people in charge, was solved a couple of hours afterwards.

- Lophie
Congratulations

Now you can dump them Cheesy
Come-from-Beyond
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February 14, 2014, 09:02:45 AM
 #33508

Could anyone distribute testcoins? I could send 3M.
swartzfeger
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February 14, 2014, 09:05:42 AM
 #33509

Could anyone distribute testcoins? I could send 3M.

I'll be awake for another 2-3 hours.

11369639962571180006
l8orre
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February 14, 2014, 09:06:22 AM
 #33510

Here's my spot of Latin for a NXT slogan:

non deorum, non reges, iustus NXT

No gods, no kings, just NXT
(corrections welcome)

You know, I think the original "no gods, no kings, just us" works too -- especially considering that Nxt will likely become a foundation upon which other currencies ride.  The "just us" is all-inclusive.

Just a thought.
Works for me....lets go for "just us".

Now, we need someone who actually knows Latin for a grammar check...I'm not totally sure if Google translate is trustworthy.  Huh

Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum Nxt



Hey salsacz !


Goog to see that you made it back home! Hope the bus ride was not too uncomfortable!





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February 14, 2014, 09:07:44 AM
 #33511

Could anyone distribute testcoins? I could send 3M.

I'll be awake for another 2-3 hours.

11369639962571180006

if my Unigots are gone, please send some testcoins to this testnet account - I'll recreate them!


1738404304940813414
cc001
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February 14, 2014, 09:09:02 AM
 #33512

Could anyone distribute testcoins? I could send 3M.

I'll be awake for another 2-3 hours.

11369639962571180006

if my Unigots are gone, please send some testcoins to this testnet account - I'll recreate them!


1738404304940813414


I want to buy some Unigots Smiley test account 14982679201235752929

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February 14, 2014, 09:11:23 AM
 #33513

i understand how multisig works. thats not the confusing part. its the idea of people honouring each others obligations and doing multisig. when i think of federating i think of people honouring each others agreements but then clearing their balances with each other periodically. so like if you and i federated and we issued 10 silver bars each. and then all 20 bars were redeemed through my gateway. you would owe me 10 silver bars. you would send the bars and then the balances would be cleared. we were able to federate because i trusted you.

oooh i get it now. i see why the wires were getting crossed. if you did a multisig account you wouldn’t be federating you would be incorporating!

Can we get a balance where the federation of the gateways ensures the integrity of the transaction without becoming liable for the asset?

What I tried to get across in my reply to James a few pages back (which you kindly responded to) was the transaction is a contracts between the buyer and the seller and gateways cooperate to enforce the escrow / atomicity of the transaction and asset being transferred for which the gateways get a fee.

Firstly for this to work each maybe you need gateway relationship to be verified bi-laterally, i.e. a gateway to gateway trust relationship is pre-established, I am not sure this exists in the Ripple model which is why I think there is a problem - is this what you mean by federation.

Each buyer and seller legitimise the asset with each gateway involved e.g. deposit asset in escrow or reserve somehow.
The buyer sends the transaction request to the sellers gateway to buy the asset (with the relevant buy/sell asset ids from each gateway)
The sellers gateway initiates a transaction on the block chain which is seen by buyers gateway and this is validated by forging as legitimate (e.g. 10 confirms?)
The buyers gateway then confirms the transaction by re-submitting again to be validated by forging to confirm the buyer honours the contract.
The two gateways can then release the escrow asset to the buyer and seller respectively.
The transaction ledger could be the NXT blockchain, once the transaction is validated by forging the seller gateway releases the asset to the buyer and the buyer gateway releases the asset to the seller.
The buyer/seller gateways would get their fees from the buyer/seller respectively
There is a NXT fee for each of the transactions involved.

What  I am trying to achieve is the gateways are acting to ensure the safe transfer of an asset between two parties but maybe this is too hard complicated?
For widespread adoption there needed to be trust in the integrity of the transaction and that should be down to whether Anon, Bob or Sally tokens have a different trust level.
Without some level of transaction legitimacy validated by NXT itself I fear we would have a massive dispute resolution problem with scam buyers as much of a problem as scam sellers.

I think you are overcomplicating. The ONLY function of the gateway is to accept deposit and process withdrawal of an asset. I am only dealing with crypto gateways here, more specifically cryptos with multisig support like BTC.

All the gateways in the federation would agree to run the same software, or at least software that makes the same business decisions. All the transactions are on the BTC blockchain or NXT blockchain. For deposits, all gateways accept it and put it into shared multisig deposit acct and issue their asset. For user simplicity, I suggest all gateway specific BTC be exchanged automatically to a federation BTC. [maybe federation is the wrong word?] Then users would just trade the federation BTC Asset as much as they want. NXT AE makes sure everyone ends up with the right amount of federation BTC.

Finally, when the user wants to withdraw actual BTC, he needs to select a gateway, which triggers the automated multisig process. We need to protect the withdrawal process. All of the asset issuance and deposits will be monitored in realtime by all the different gateways. The withdrawal process is validated by multisig from all gateways (minus 1) and the user gets BTC in his wallet.

The moment a gateway accepts a deposit and doesnt issue a matched amount of Asset, or just issues unbacked Assets, they will be caught redhanded by all the other gateways. Also, to do this, they would have to change the automated gateway software and replace it with an Evil one. There are ways to ensure this doesnt happen!

I think the overall plan is decent, but it is still young and definitely needs to be gone over with a fine tooth comb to fine any possible ways Evil bob can circumvent things and abscond with BTC

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
Come-from-Beyond
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February 14, 2014, 09:13:05 AM
 #33514

Could anyone distribute testcoins? I could send 3M.

I'll be awake for another 2-3 hours.

11369639962571180006

Thank u, sent 3M.
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February 14, 2014, 09:14:33 AM
 #33515

Could anyone distribute testcoins? I could send 3M.

I'll be awake for another 2-3 hours.

11369639962571180006

Please fund me on testnet: 13266890203335482459

Thanks!
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February 14, 2014, 09:16:19 AM
 #33516

Could anyone distribute testcoins? I could send 3M.

I'll be awake for another 2-3 hours.

11369639962571180006

Thank u, sent 3M.

Last block was 3:55 EST... hopefully a new one will pop soon.

Also: I'm keeping track of requests Smiley
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February 14, 2014, 09:17:38 AM
 #33517

Ok guys so what's up with Vircurex? It is like they have disappeared into a thin air.
I resolve my problems with BTER, yesterday night they credited my coins after we exchanged 10 emails, but they at least responded.
Vircurex guys don't respond third day in a row.. And I am not the only one, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=49383.new#new
Did anybody actually managed to deposit NXT to Vircurex in the last 3 days?
Anyone has more info? Maybe I should just PM their lead man KUMALA, but he wasn't active either on this forum since February 1st.
Unbelievable!!
Thanks
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February 14, 2014, 09:21:48 AM
 #33518

nice to see wiki also in Farsi. But we need Arabic language asap Cheesy

Nxt tips: NXT-R67P-6BZ2-XWAK-8RHZR | Nxt forum | Nxt Academy | Donate for Nxt at the Universities // BTCD: RVMLrnxYYy7uy8YZo9FcGfXbk1ZMnNifdg
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February 14, 2014, 09:21:58 AM
 #33519

Could anyone distribute testcoins? I could send 3M.

I'll be awake for another 2-3 hours.

11369639962571180006

if my Unigots are gone, please send some testcoins to this testnet account - I'll recreate them!


1738404304940813414


200k sent. You are L captain.
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February 14, 2014, 09:22:36 AM
 #33520


I want to buy some Unigots Smiley test account 14982679201235752929

200k sent. You are C captain.
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