NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[marcus03]

Sending NXTs with a message will get implemented, right?

Could be done in clients.

Send NXT, get the transactionID, send message with the referenceTransactionID set to the transactionID of the NXT transfer.

[Fatih87SK]

Hi !

I'm a newbie in this forum, but I wanted to ask a question.

If there will be multiple applications of NXT in the future. Are we going to use the same passphrase that unlocks our account for these applications?

I think it will be more secure when we don't use the one and only passphrase we have of our account.

I hope this is possible.

[salsacz]

NXT with humanoid interference can not be perfect.

Pin

oh no, now when pin used the phrase "can not", he joined the position as a potential candidate for BCNext with Bybitcoin and Anon136 who used it too.

[xyzzyx]

I don't think the main purpose of Arbitrary Messages is IM function, hence the name.

Problem with storing unwanted data could be perhaps handled at the client side - client won't store and relay AM.

It seems to me that the name "arbitrary messages" has unfortunately primed people to think of storing and transmitting text messages, not of generic global data storage.

A good thing with AM would be TTL (time to live) option with some max value.

Pruning the blockchain would be a nice feature to have.  Some things you need to be around for a long time, such as the ledger of currency transactions.  Other things, like messages, I agree a TTL option would be nice.  If you need your use-specific data in the blockchain to be around for a long long time, then you pay more.  If you only need it to be around for a few weeks or days (or hours!) then you could pay much less.  Arbitrary messages should be essentially transient data.

[jl777]

CfB

It seems "Arbitrary Messages" has gotten a lot of people thinking that its purpose is for messaging. Wouldn't the name "Arbitrary Storage" be more appropriate for what it does?

Since it is not stored in the blockchain in plaintext, I think the problems about illegal content are minimized. Only receiver can decode it.

Lowering fee opens up NXT blockchain to spam attack. Cost of a few cents to store 1K of data for 1 year (or permanently?) seems to be a pretty low price already

James

[apenzl]

This a storage function not a communication function.

All communication platforms have a storage function, some are in the client some are in the network.
A lot of supposedly secure communication is readable on the network servers that process it (authorities make it so)
Those that use client side encryption are difficult to replicate where you lose the client device unless certificates can be recovered etc.
If you can't reach the server that holds your message then you are screwed and if the company providing that server goes bust you are screwed.
if you use a google, microsoft, whatsapp you will be monitored, your ideas read, copied, stolen - prove it???

With NXT
the message is encrypted in the client but your passphrase unlocks it
it is unreadable anywhere except on a client that has the keys
the network of NXT nodes holds it so you can always get to it unless NXT ceases to exist.
no one can search, copy steal your ideas or communication.

You could also use arbitrary messages to communicate to yourself (sorry store) those secrets that you want to remember.

I like that.

[utopianfuture]

we have discussed this issue on previous on occasions...and i'm sure it will be solved but it's the same problem the internet has....i'm not smart enough to suggest any solutions for this one.

It's a different problem. With the general Internet, when illegal content springs up it can generally be dealt with (speed & mechanisms dependent on the type of content), and the rest of the Internet chugs along just fine. Systems that try to combat that (tor etc) do so with sophisticated techniques, and it's a cat & mouse game against the authorities.

Fact is, we are hosting a blockchain that allows arbitrary data to be stored in it, with no mechanism to remove it, and hoping that people won't take advantage of that in a way that harms us. Is that wise?

+1 Don't overestimate the load our blockchain can take as we may end up with 10G data file pretty soon. One reason Bitcoin devs don't want to implement any other features     because Bitcoin already reaches the 10G blockchain and almost maximum bandwith by doing only transaction processing. So now they decided to be a payment specialist only.

When we have asset exchange, plus messenger, voting etc and pyamnet system. We may do 10X the load Bitcoin is taking right now. Need to think ahead.

Ok so we can't implement all these features because of blockchain bloat. But didn't we tout these as the advantages and the reason NXT is far ahead of Bitcoin and now the bloat is the reason it won't be implemented? Huh?

Just use common logic. Features are good. We love features but don't kid yourself that you can get a fee lunch.

Fee lunch? I don't care about fees. It was promised that these features would be implemented with no mention of the blockchain size being a big road block. It's news to me what you just said.

Free lunch. The more features, the bigger blockchain. There are tricks to reduce that but the common sense is that if you want to put in a lot of furnitures, your house will necessarily be bigger.
now you heard it, don't complain later that no one told you.

[allwelder]

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[BitcoinForumator]

we have discussed this issue on previous on occasions...and i'm sure it will be solved but it's the same problem the internet has....i'm not smart enough to suggest any solutions for this one.

It's a different problem. With the general Internet, when illegal content springs up it can generally be dealt with (speed & mechanisms dependent on the type of content), and the rest of the Internet chugs along just fine. Systems that try to combat that (tor etc) do so with sophisticated techniques, and it's a cat & mouse game against the authorities.

Fact is, we are hosting a blockchain that allows arbitrary data to be stored in it, with no mechanism to remove it, and hoping that people won't take advantage of that in a way that harms us. Is that wise?

+1 Don't overestimate the load our blockchain can take as we may end up with 10G data file pretty soon. One reason Bitcoin devs don't want to implement any other features     because Bitcoin already reaches the 10G blockchain and almost maximum bandwith by doing only transaction processing. So now they decided to be a payment specialist only.

When we have asset exchange, plus messenger, voting etc and pyamnet system. We may do 10X the load Bitcoin is taking right now. Need to think ahead.

Ok so we can't implement all these features because of blockchain bloat. But didn't we tout these as the advantages and the reason NXT is far ahead of Bitcoin and now the bloat is the reason it won't be implemented? Huh?

Just use common logic. Features are good. We love features but don't kid yourself that you can get a fee lunch.

Fee lunch? I don't care about fees. It was promised that these features would be implemented with no mention of the blockchain size being a big road block. It's news to me what you just said.

Free lunch. The more features, the bigger blockchain. There are tricks to reduce that but the common sense is that if you want to put in a lot of furnitures, your house will necessarily be bigger.
now you heard it, don't complain later that no one told you.

The fact that the blockchain grows with features is a given. But the fact that this is a such a big road block now is news at least to me. Nowhere before in hundreds of pages was it mentioned that all of a sudden we have a huge problem with the blockchain size. But we did have an emhasis on all of the "nice future features" that we will easily implement. Now I understand this is not feasible in practice. Is that what you're saying?

[mkmen]

Since it is not stored in the blockchain in plaintext, I think the problems about illegal content are minimized. Only receiver can decode it.

That's not true, you can store any HEX data and anyone can decode that to plaintext (or anything else - images etc.).

Pruning the blockchain would be a nice feature to have.  Some things you need to be around for a long time, such as the ledger of currency transactions.  Other things, like messages, I agree a TTL option would be nice.  If you need your use-specific data in the blockchain to be around for a long long time, then you pay more.  If you only need it to be around for a few weeks or days (or hours!) then you could pay much less.  Arbitrary messages should be essentially transient data.

I was thinking about that too, fee based on TTL.

[utopianfuture]

we have discussed this issue on previous on occasions...and i'm sure it will be solved but it's the same problem the internet has....i'm not smart enough to suggest any solutions for this one.

It's a different problem. With the general Internet, when illegal content springs up it can generally be dealt with (speed & mechanisms dependent on the type of content), and the rest of the Internet chugs along just fine. Systems that try to combat that (tor etc) do so with sophisticated techniques, and it's a cat & mouse game against the authorities.

Fact is, we are hosting a blockchain that allows arbitrary data to be stored in it, with no mechanism to remove it, and hoping that people won't take advantage of that in a way that harms us. Is that wise?

+1 Don't overestimate the load our blockchain can take as we may end up with 10G data file pretty soon. One reason Bitcoin devs don't want to implement any other features     because Bitcoin already reaches the 10G blockchain and almost maximum bandwith by doing only transaction processing. So now they decided to be a payment specialist only.

When we have asset exchange, plus messenger, voting etc and pyamnet system. We may do 10X the load Bitcoin is taking right now. Need to think ahead.

Ok so we can't implement all these features because of blockchain bloat. But didn't we tout these as the advantages and the reason NXT is far ahead of Bitcoin and now the bloat is the reason it won't be implemented? Huh?

Just use common logic. Features are good. We love features but don't kid yourself that you can get a fee lunch.

Fee lunch? I don't care about fees. It was promised that these features would be implemented with no mention of the blockchain size being a big road block. It's news to me what you just said.

Free lunch. The more features, the bigger blockchain. There are tricks to reduce that but the common sense is that if you want to put in a lot of furnitures, your house will necessarily be bigger.
now you heard it, don't complain later that no one told you.

The fact that the blockchain grows with features is a given. But the fact that this is a such a big road block now is news at least to me. Nowhere before in hundreds of pages was it mentioned that all of a sudden we have a huge problem with the blockchain size. But we did have an emhasis on all of the "nice future features" that we will easily implement. Now I understand this is not feasible in practice. Is that what you're saying?

I said need to think ahead

[Come-from-Beyond]

and we don't even have encryption yet.

We do - https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,727.0.html

[bittick]

I am about to add NXT to http://cryptokopen.eu
any donations are very welcome!

10772787204751253513

[jl777]

and we don't even have encryption yet.

We do - https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,727.0.html

CfB
Can you confirm that all Arbitrary Messages (Storage) in the blockchain are encrypted

[xyzzyx]

It seems to me that any actual text/messaging service that needs long term storage would be best tackled by a service provider.  

The service provider could charge useage fees in NXT, and would have its own parallel blockchain for its data.

The concept as I see it is basically outlined here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg4257311#msg4257311

Just replace the idea of SMS provider with client messaging provider.
 

[LiQio]

Can you confirm that all Arbitrary Messages (Storage) in the blockchain are encrypted

no, as is demonstrated with the client (html file) from wesley.

but client software can easily implement using the algo described on https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,727.0.html

at least that's my guess 

[chanc3r]

It seems to me that any actual text/messaging service that needs long term storage would be best tackled by a service provider.  

The service provider could charge useage fees in NXT, and would have its own parallel blockchain for its data.

The concept as I see it is basically outlined here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg4257311#msg4257311

Just replace the idea of SMS provider with client messaging provider.
 

I like this too, the NXT block chain gets pruned to maintain performance but if you subscribe to one or more (for resilience) service providers your chain elements are stored in their copy and of course they still can't read them

If they are storing the whole block chain forever then they can also charge for non-subscribers who suddenly find they need to recover a transaction record or message.

[bitcoinpaul]

Lowering fee opens up NXT blockchain to spam attack. Cost of a few cents to store 1K of data for 1 year (or permanently?) seems to be a pretty low price already

With NXT
the message is encrypted in the client but your passphrase unlocks it
it is unreadable anywhere except on a client that has the keys
the network of NXT nodes holds it so you can always get to it unless NXT ceases to exist.
no one can search, copy steal your ideas or communication.

You could also use arbitrary messages to communicate to yourself (sorry store) those secrets that you want to remember.

+1

[gbeirn]

going to a size-of-wallet voting scheme is plain MEDIEVAL - sure this has been brought up here before, but how about this:

Thanks everyone for the great ideas and discussion about voting, it's what I was hoping for

I agree with the above statement and that's why I proposed what I did. My concept of voting is only based on the American democratic process. So that's why I proposed how I did.

I am curious that no one commented about the account restrictions based on blockchain height I mentioned: If a vote was proposed and went public on block height of 45,000 an account would have to have existed for 'X' number of blocks before the block containing the vote (i.e, you have to be 18yrs old to vote in the U.S.), we could take it a bit further and say that that account would also have to NXT in it for a certain amount of blocks before the vote as well (like the 1440 blocks before you can forge). This could surely cut down on the amount of gaming no?

[Come-from-Beyond]

It seems "Arbitrary Messages" has gotten a lot of people thinking that its purpose is for messaging. Wouldn't the name "Arbitrary Storage" be more appropriate for what it does?

Arbitrary Storage would be confused with Alias System if u used abbreviations.