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Author Topic: Economic Devastation  (Read 503949 times)
fopilo
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April 26, 2017, 04:12:22 AM
 #2901

Everyone is a Marxist to you. Doesn't make your long cryptic posts any more sympathetic. Care to tailor your message to the world for the 'stupid people' or not? That's the question. I certainly hope so. I learn more from people who think outside the box (even if a bit crazy or 'off the path') than people that stick to common wisdom. I just wish you drop the superiority thing.
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May 24, 2017, 12:45:02 PM
 #2902

Here is an interesting (and in my opinion accurate) prediction from the ZeroHedge comments on the future of cryptocurrency.

Quote from: East Indian
The bird has flown the coop. Bitcoin is already out of control. It has spread so far and wide, it will be impossible to control it. It will be a very good alternative to the paper-masquerading-as-gold investments.

Next, the fiat governments will "swing into action". There will be "official" cryptocurrencies, or coopting the existing altcoins - Ethereum has been swallowed by Microsoft; banksters have swallowed Ripple, that would have set the whole Forex futures on fire.

But such tricks will not last long. The monopoly on money creation has been pried away from the cold fingers of the unmentionable central bankster mafia. MONEY IS WHAT PEOPLE SAY IT IS. Not what Govt says it is. If the govt insists on collecting its dues in fiat, and paying its employees in fiat, let it do so. But sooner, than later, people will use a competent and widely accepted money for their transactions, and will buy fiat only to pay the govt taxes! And the govt employees will change their fiats immediately to open market money! Since the demand for fiat will be limited to the tax demands, eployees will find that they have to take a heavy hit if the govt overprints its fiat! Hence, the govt cannot thrust more fiat on the society than its tax demands! Voila! Ultimately the governments world over may have to eat crow and accept privately mined cryptocurrencies!


sidhujag
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May 25, 2017, 05:55:23 AM
 #2903

Here is an interesting (and in my opinion accurate) prediction from the ZeroHedge comments on the future of cryptocurrency.

Quote from: East Indian
The bird has flown the coop. Bitcoin is already out of control. It has spread so far and wide, it will be impossible to control it. It will be a very good alternative to the paper-masquerading-as-gold investments.

Next, the fiat governments will "swing into action". There will be "official" cryptocurrencies, or coopting the existing altcoins - Ethereum has been swallowed by Microsoft; banksters have swallowed Ripple, that would have set the whole Forex futures on fire.

But such tricks will not last long. The monopoly on money creation has been pried away from the cold fingers of the unmentionable central bankster mafia. MONEY IS WHAT PEOPLE SAY IT IS. Not what Govt says it is. If the govt insists on collecting its dues in fiat, and paying its employees in fiat, let it do so. But sooner, than later, people will use a competent and widely accepted money for their transactions, and will buy fiat only to pay the govt taxes! And the govt employees will change their fiats immediately to open market money! Since the demand for fiat will be limited to the tax demands, eployees will find that they have to take a heavy hit if the govt overprints its fiat! Hence, the govt cannot thrust more fiat on the society than its tax demands! Voila! Ultimately the governments world over may have to eat crow and accept privately mined cryptocurrencies!

Nice post by an east indian Wink wonder.who it is.. seems smart
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May 25, 2017, 07:32:21 AM
 #2904

Here is an interesting (and in my opinion accurate) prediction from the ZeroHedge comments on the future of cryptocurrency.

Quote from: East Indian
The bird has flown the coop. Bitcoin is already out of control. It has spread so far and wide, it will be impossible to control it. It will be a very good alternative to the paper-masquerading-as-gold investments.

Next, the fiat governments will "swing into action". There will be "official" cryptocurrencies, or coopting the existing altcoins - Ethereum has been swallowed by Microsoft; banksters have swallowed Ripple, that would have set the whole Forex futures on fire.

But such tricks will not last long. The monopoly on money creation has been pried away from the cold fingers of the unmentionable central bankster mafia. MONEY IS WHAT PEOPLE SAY IT IS. Not what Govt says it is. If the govt insists on collecting its dues in fiat, and paying its employees in fiat, let it do so. But sooner, than later, people will use a competent and widely accepted money for their transactions, and will buy fiat only to pay the govt taxes! And the govt employees will change their fiats immediately to open market money! Since the demand for fiat will be limited to the tax demands, eployees will find that they have to take a heavy hit if the govt overprints its fiat! Hence, the govt cannot thrust more fiat on the society than its tax demands! Voila! Ultimately the governments world over may have to eat crow and accept privately mined cryptocurrencies!

Nice post by an east indian Wink wonder.who it is.. seems smart

Well put. Too good a prediction to waste on ZeroHedge.
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May 25, 2017, 08:38:37 AM
 #2905

Perhaps the start of the anticipated 'melt-up'.

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May 25, 2017, 08:51:00 AM
 #2906


The best solution to that is to establish corporate taxes like what our government did. That way there will be balance in the three sectors that have been mentioned.

But the problem arise when corporations don't  declare their income well but at least they pay tax.

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May 27, 2017, 09:07:04 PM
 #2907

Just this week, I underwent "my" first contactless debit card payment. I use "my" because
I wasn't directly participation in the transaction. Someone else took money out of my account.
I was there, they had my permission, but that wasn't necessary for the exchange.

Thinking about it, I wondered whether to empty my account and buy gold, or to buy bitcoin.

I mentioned my fears to the younger generation. They assured me that "contactless" was
a most welcome addition to their world. No more hassle spending money. Coincidentally
they have large (negative) credit card balances.

These are mutually exclusive views. One of us is improperly dressed.

While it's not that unusual to agree on the facts but reach totally different conclusions,
this seems to be happening to me more often this year. For example , the suggestion that
"people will use a competent and widely accepted money for their transactions," suggests a
worrying gap with reality and Gresham's law. For an explanation see here:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-26/bitcoin-rebounds-2600-greshams-law-looms

I'll mention that at the beginning of the collapse in Imperial Rome circa 300ad
the government insisted on part (or full) payment of taxes in gold. And guess what,
your friendly tax collector probably decided the exchange rate :-)
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May 27, 2017, 09:36:28 PM
 #2908

Just this week, I underwent "my" first contactless debit card payment. I use "my" because
I wasn't directly participation in the transaction. Someone else took money out of my account.
I was there, they had my permission, but that wasn't necessary for the exchange.

Thinking about it, I wondered whether to empty my account and buy gold, or to buy bitcoin.

I mentioned my fears to the younger generation. They assured me that "contactless" was
a most welcome addition to their world. No more hassle spending money. Coincidentally
they have large (negative) credit card balances.

These are mutually exclusive views. One of us is improperly dressed.
 

If you contact your bank and tell them you wish for all such "contactless" withdrawals to be declined they will tell you that they cannot help you.

The only easy way to stop an upcomming but disputed automatic withdrawal is to close the account in question.

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May 28, 2017, 08:21:51 PM
 #2909

A million lemmings can't be wrong.

@CoinCube - you miss my point. My lemmings would cheerfully rush into Zimbabwean
dollars or Venezeuelan Pesos in the mistaken belief that access to debt makes them
wealthy. They are economically illiterate. I've come to the belief that the general lack
of understanding of matters financial is no accident, but the outcome of years of
careful engineering and education. These lemmings are not stupid BTW.

If you've read '1984' you will recall that ideas like freedom and suchlike were carefully
erased from the newspapers. Only a selected few were given access to restricted texts.
Replace 'freedom' with 'usury' and you will see what I mean.

I keep thinking that bitcoin owners have worked all this out, but find that they haven't.

 

 
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May 28, 2017, 08:55:34 PM
 #2910

A million lemmings can't be wrong.

@CoinCube - you miss my point. My lemmings would cheerfully rush into Zimbabwean
dollars or Venezeuelan Pesos in the mistaken belief that access to debt makes them
wealthy. They are economically illiterate. I've come to the belief that the general lack
of understanding of matters financial is no accident, but the outcome of years of
careful engineering and education. These lemmings are not stupid BTW.

If you've read '1984' you will recall that ideas like freedom and suchlike were carefully
erased from the newspapers. Only a selected few were given access to restricted texts.
Replace 'freedom' with 'usury' and you will see what I mean.

I keep thinking that bitcoin owners have worked all this out, but find that they haven't.

 

 

The ones that do understand are the ones driving crypto currency prices through the roof. It's not a coincidence that the sheep that are getting slaughtered by buying high and selling low are the ones who are "illiterate" in these matters.
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June 04, 2017, 07:33:06 PM
 #2911

In other news:

Central Banks Now Own A Third Of The Entire $54 Trillion Global Bond Market

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-04/central-banks-now-own-third-entire-54-trillion-global-bond-market

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June 04, 2017, 07:37:16 PM
 #2912

What is Bitcoin


Bitcoin is an overarching consensus system organized around the concept of sound money. Those voluntarily participating in this consensus are required to behave transparently and do work with the ultimate aim of ensuring all network participants abide by the greater consensus. Nodes who choose not to follow the protocol, miners who submit invalid proof of work, and users who try to spend bitcoins without verified private keys, are simply ignored and excluded by the greater consensus.

Bitcoin is a form of group selection and group selection entails that group behavior be referenced to something outside the group. This something outside is the concept groups cohere and organize around. It is what they cooperate to promote. In the case of bitcoin the referenced object is the conceptual idea of a sound and ideal money.


People who believe bitcoin has no long term future are unlikely to participate in the system in any sustained manner. If you believe bitcoin is just a scam you may participate in the periphery trying to make money but logic will dictate you constantly keep one foot in the doorway. You will hesitate at being involved in anything but the most superficial manner. 

Probably you will choose not to invest at all but if you do then you are likely to cash out of the system at some point choosing to take your profits and leave the "tulip bubble" you have no confidence in. In this manner those who do not appreciate the underlying consensus mechanism will be diluted and replaced over time by those more interested in long term cooperation and building value.

It helps to understand what group selection is. Here is a basic introduction:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/whats-good-for-the-group/


What you say doesn't contradict what I'm saying.  You may claim that there is a hard core of "true believers" which ARE indeed a community.  Most probably, yes, there is probably a hard core community of true believers.  However, the questions are:
1) how much of the ecosystem do they make up at any given moment in time
2) what influence can they have on the ecosystem ?

The way bitcoin is designed to be, turns around antagonism: we all want to possess coins, and if you possess a coin, I don't and vice versa, which makes us de facto antagonists ; there is competition in proof of work mining and the gains that go with it ; and deep down, it turns around speculation (which is a zero sum game).   There's nothing in bitcoin that is designed to be cooperative, apart from having to stick to the consensus protocol for reasons of greater loss if you don't.


1) How large is the community of "true believers"?

This is unknown but I suspect the "true believers" control a huge percentage of the bitcoins and this is a good thing.

Bitcoin came on the scene as the obscure technical pet project of idealists, anarchist, open source advocates and libertarians who wanted to improve the world and reform the status quo.

These "true believers" will over time take on an altruistic role to stabilize and maintain the system. If you read my link on group selection above they are the functional equivalent of the fluorescens that maintain the polymer.

2) What influence will these true believers have on the ecosystem?

They will have an ever growing influence because true believers form a large percentage now and they stick around while those who erroneously think this is a zero-sum game are unlikely to enter or will come and go.

Yes there is competition and speculation. These fuel interests and motivate people to enter and explore the ecosystem but they are ultimately secondary. Competition of this kind fuels growth but as bitcoin block rewards dwindle to zero and knowledge of bitcoin becomes increasingly common these speculative opportunities fade unmasking the ever growing network of cooperative win-win interactions that represent the long term value of bitcoin.

Bitcoin is a self reinforcing consensus mechanism that ultimately screens for cooperation. There is a necessity for a degree altruism that is built in. This is most easily seen when looking at nodes. There is no financial incentive for any individual to run a node yet there are thousands of them despite that fact that pure economic self-interest would dictate free riding on someone else's node. The bitcoin consensus system is cleverly piggybacked on a delivery vector of speculation leveraging human greed to attract broad interest while selectively retaining those most interested in long term cooperation.


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June 06, 2017, 03:18:45 AM
 #2913

There have been two challenges to my description of bitcoin immediately above. Due to time constraints I am unable to engage deeply with either. Instead I have posted both challenges below so readers can benefit from alternative viewpoints.

Challenge #1 iamnotback (author of the essays linked in the OP)

Quote from: iamnotback

I agree it is system that rewards cooperation, but the eventual (not immediate) failure mode similar to politics with a winner-take-all aggregation of economies-of-scale in mining and fungible finance (and remember the whales of fungible finance are economically also the whales of mining, cf. my public explanation to @Dorky). And when you see how my consensus algorithm works, you will see how everyone incentivized to cooperate without that flaw (unless I have a flaw in my reasoning about my design).

I wish you would have quoted this from me in your thread (so it is public some where for the record when Bitnet finally gets launched):

Quote from: iamnotback
Subject: Blockchain broad scope societal fundamental

Decentralized blockchains if possible are the way to avoid defect-defect w/o handing power to the winner-take-all power vacuum of political social organization:

http://blog.jim.com/politics/the-enlightenment-debunked/

As of now, no one has yet shown the technology for a blockchain that is not a power-vacuum of economy-of-scale. I propose to show the technology for this. At least one person has seen my white paper but claims to not understand it.


Challenge #2 dinofelis


What you say doesn't contradict what I'm saying.  You may claim that there is a hard core of "true believers" which ARE indeed a community.  Most probably, yes, there is probably a hard core community of true believers.  However, the questions are:
1) how much of the ecosystem do they make up at any given moment in time
2) what influence can they have on the ecosystem ?

The way bitcoin is designed to be, turns around antagonism: we all want to possess coins, and if you possess a coin, I don't and vice versa, which makes us de facto antagonists ; there is competition in proof of work mining and the gains that go with it ; and deep down, it turns around speculation (which is a zero sum game).   There's nothing in bitcoin that is designed to be cooperative, apart from having to stick to the consensus protocol for reasons of greater loss if you don't.


1) How large is the community of "true believers"?

This is unknown but I suspect the "true believers" control a huge percentage of the bitcoins and this is a good thing.

You mean guys like MPex and Roger Ver and the Winklevoss twins ?  No, they are in the game to get insanely rich on the back of the whole crowd of greater fool adopters.  Of course, given their whale status, they will do everything they can to promote bitcoin adoption (not merchant adoption, but speculative adoption), until they cash out of course.

The idealists of the first hour have been pushed out of the eco system by the design flaws of bitcoin that was made to "get rich quickly" rather than to become a neutral freedom currency (by capping, not the value, but the number of coins), and that separated users from industrial block chain providers (miners) with the PoW consensus mechanism.  Once you have an industrial "provider/customer" system (provider of industrial block chain vs user of transactions), in a highly speculative get-rich-quickly scheme, the system is such that there's too much money to be made to leave room for idealists, and you get a crabs bucket of sleazy players.  That's what bitcoin became, and it is baked into its initial design.

You have early adopters, indeed, getting rich quickly on the back of greater fools: these may behave as if they are "true believers" but are of course motivated by the growth of their wealth ; you have greater fools, hoping to be in still early enough in the game to imitate the early adopters, and become "somewhat rich quickly" too ; they are the main pumpers of the speculative market price.  All of these only want one thing: "More fresh flesh", but they call it "adoption", so that there's still enough influx of greater fools.  There's not much "idealism" behind that.  Hell, they are screaming for regulation and legal adoption, the opposite of what bitcoin was supposed to be, to be able to attract the funds of family fathers as greater fools to pump up the price and hence their wealth, and to keep out enough "freedom" by law so that these family fathers are not scared away from any anarchist thoughts.

Then you have the business around bitcoin: exchanges and industrial miners, that live off the "value leaks" in the system: they are the industrials living off the speculative hopes of family fathers making early adopters rich in the process: the more the gamblers play on the system they provide, the more they can leak off value from the players.  There's not much idealism in that either.

Quote
Bitcoin came on the scene as the obscure technical pet project of idealists, anarchist, open source advocates and libertarians who wanted to improve the world and reform the status quo.

Yup, and because of fundamental design errors, it became a shark's greater-fool game with an industry that lives off the players.

Quote
These "true believers" will over time take on an altruistic role to stabilize and maintain the system. If you read my link on group selection above they are the functional equivalent of the fluorescens that maintain the polymer.

These "whales" will cash out at a certain point, dumping on all the greater fools "and thanks for all the fish", to go to more lucrative horizons when bitcoin's greater-fool adoption potential reaches a ceiling ; or use their coins to win political power by bribing deciders in anonymous ways.

Quote
2) What influence will these true believers have on the ecosystem?

They will have an ever growing influence because true believers form a large percentage now and they stick around while those who erroneously think this is a zero-sum game are unlikely to enter or will come and go.

It is *obviously* a zero sum game ; well, it is a negative-sum game, because there's a net value flowing out to miners and exchanges.  There is (almost) no value created by the system (the only value that is created is the business opportunities on dark markets and other means of payment that cannot be easily done in fiat, but that's on the few percent level of the market cap at best), so obviously, all value that flows out of bitcoin, has to be put in there by other users.  

Quote
Yes there is competition and speculation. These fuel interests and motivate people to enter and explore the ecosystem but they are ultimately secondary.

Nope.  Bitcoin's market cap is ENTIRELY DOMINATED by speculation.   Its "usage" as a currency is a negligible part of its market cap.   If tomorrow, all merchants decide to stop accepting bitcoin, that wouldn't influence the market cap in the slightest bit, because bitcoin's value is essentially determined by gamblers on exchanges, not by the demand for coins because you want to buy something.

And it is no surprise, because it was designed that way, and advertised that way: "there will only be 21 million coins, so buy your coins now, and be rich in 15 years".  That's the perfect invitation for a greater-fool game, and it is working as hell.  Once big financial players will find their way, it will go even much much higher ; and in the end, the last layer of greater fools will have paid for everything.


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June 06, 2017, 05:59:04 PM
 #2914

If people believe and use the currency and liquidity is sufficient the greator fool theory need not apply. In fact fiat is the biggest game of hot potatoes ever created.. now that money is leaving into crypto we will see that unfolding. If govt doesnt give in then ppl will just convert the necessary amounts to fiat to pay tax to satisfy their requirements and also that makes their central bank inflation targetting useless as they will not be able to print money that has no utility which at that point will have hyper inflated anyway. If govt tries to ban crypto then anon tech will take center stage things like confidential transactions are a necessary component on making crypto fungible.
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June 06, 2017, 09:44:52 PM
 #2915

Quoting as he requested.

Quote from: iamnotback
I think the key design point to overcoming @dinofelis’ observations is that we need system that values fungible money up to some moderate natural limit with diminishing utility from that moderate peak economy-of-scale. Existing blockchain consensus algorithms and the historical social organization/governance systems of society all have the flaw that they winner-take-all reward a constant (non-diminishing) utility of economies-of-scale (in capital, political power, for PoW/PoS in hashrate/tokens, etc). This was the entire point of my essay quoted in the OP of Economic Devastation, that knowledge production can not be captured by finance nor governance, thus it would naturally force decentralization. Then I discovered the importance of the Inverse Commons in this process. Then I realized we could accomplish consensus in an Inverse Commons. The point being that we can in theory have a blockchain consensus which is immune to tragedies-of-the-commons (e.g. winner-take-all non-diminishing utility) and then due to the points I made my aforementioned essay, then accumulating economies-of-scale becomes a weakness with diminishing utility (analogous to the Mythical Man Month concept in an abstract comparison).

I intend to make a more detailed exposition about all of this as my health improves and Bitnet comes closer to reality. Also I will want to explain in more detail why the above combined with computer technology meaning no more physical black markets as all money will be electronic, means that epoch where precious metals are valuable and money has come to an end. The Bible is correct and everyone will throw their gold and silver into the streets as it becomes useless shiny metal trash (aluminum foil is shiny also, lead is heavy also) and actually a liability labeling the tinfoil hat as a terrorist to be imprisoned. When the West starts to collapse in earnest, it is going to be a very rapid transformation and those who were complacent are likely to get trapped unprepared. We are at the end of millennium epoch of civilization.
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June 15, 2017, 07:55:46 PM
 #2916

Hello  Grin

Ive been reading the last pages of this thread, as im done with my coding im going to troll à bit  Grin going to come back with cool stuff soon  Grin

Already one thing that always disturb me is this view of marxism from usa who seem to be really aksew lol like equating marxism with state power whereas marxisme originally is all about no state, no banks, no class, and horizontal organisation, self détermination, believing in social progress through work and rationalism. Marxisme never say about all controling state.

When I see this kind of view on Marxisme it give me same feeling than seeing ignorant islamophobics equating Islam with daesh lol kinda same propaganda fabric made in usa I guess lol

The other thing is this concept of entropy and conflating rules of thermodynamics with social motion is a bit fallacious, the concept of entropy make sense in the context of designing system with a clear purpose and mesurable input/output against which you can measure the entropy being unpredicted fluctuation in the system performance, but the purpose of the human mind being unknown, this concept of entropy applied to social system is a bit moot.

Like comparing libértarian motion with entropy in a system is already considering human in the perspective that it has to fit into a pattern against which it's performance can be measured against an expectation. Like David hume and his case about what "ought to be" . But there is no definition of what human mind ought to be so this concept of entropy is kinda moot in this context.

Power is an illusion anyway lol

There is a good book also about free will from neurology perpective, it shows interesting insights about what people are after when they seek freedom, is it escaping responsability, denying conséquences of actions, unfortunately both socialism & religion become more thing to cling to in order to avoiding facing one own inability to reach it's needs, and one can never be really free from external influences throught matérialisme, it's why the stoïcs were right since the beginning about the only real way to get freedom: mental strength, ascétism, self discipline etc to be as free of possible of external influence and maximizing will power to realize moral actions.

This whole concept of political power, cultural influence and sorting people out based on their culture of origin is already from this same perpective of seing freedom as entropy. Aka thinking outside of the box is so inside of the box  Grin
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June 15, 2017, 08:56:45 PM
 #2917



iamnotback you have not made the case that an absolute truth cannot exist though perhaps you made this argument somewhere I am not aware of. In your essay The Universe you instead made this claim.

This kind of topic has been covered in whole length by plato, following on socrates, "I know one thing it's that I know nothing"  Grin

The question is not even if there is absolute order in the universe, the notion of truth also come with a sense of perfect sentient understanding of this order by human mind, and plato demonstrated in whole length how this idea of monic truth will always escape the grasp of rationality. Can only be reached by honest philosopher as in the realm of idea akin to gnostic principles.

Godbel is a very rigorous and laborious demonstration of this.
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June 16, 2017, 01:27:57 AM
 #2918

I think economic devastation, due to the monopoly of wealth, in my country, economy controlled by ethnic minorities who can control the country's economy, their influence was too strong as they do all the way.
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June 16, 2017, 03:40:57 AM
Last edit: June 16, 2017, 05:16:21 AM by CoinCube
 #2919

Hello  Grin

Ive been reading the last pages of this thread, as im done with my coding im going to troll à bit  Grin going to come back with cool stuff soon  Grin

Already one thing that always disturb me is this view of marxism from usa who seem to be really aksew lol like equating marxism with state power whereas marxisme originally is all about no state, no banks, no class, and horizontal organisation, self détermination, believing in social progress through work and rationalism. Marxisme never say about all controling state.

When I see this kind of view on Marxisme it give me same feeling than seeing ignorant islamophobics equating Islam with daesh lol kinda same propaganda fabric made in usa I guess lol

The other thing is this concept of entropy and conflating rules of thermodynamics with social motion is a bit fallacious, the concept of entropy make sense in the context of designing system with a clear purpose and mesurable input/output against which you can measure the entropy being unpredicted fluctuation in the system performance, but the purpose of the human mind being unknown, this concept of entropy applied to social system is a bit moot.

Like comparing libértarian motion with entropy in a system is already considering human in the perspective that it has to fit into a pattern against which it's performance can be measured against an expectation. Like David hume and his case about what "ought to be" . But there is no definition of what human mind ought to be so this concept of entropy is kinda moot in this context.

Power is an illusion anyway lol

There is a good book also about free will from neurology perpective, it shows interesting insights about what people are after when they seek freedom, is it escaping responsability, denying conséquences of actions, unfortunately both socialism & religion become more thing to cling to in order to avoiding facing one own inability to reach it's needs, and one can never be really free from external influences throught matérialisme, it's why the stoïcs were right since the beginning about the only real way to get freedom: mental strength, ascétism, self discipline etc to be as free of possible of external influence and maximizing will power to realize moral actions.

This whole concept of political power, cultural influence and sorting people out based on their culture of origin is already from this same perpective of seing freedom as entropy. Aka thinking outside of the box is so inside of the box  Grin

Hello IadixDev welcome,

Sounds like you are involved in some coding project. What are you working on?

Your post above raises a number of deep concepts I will address some of them below.

1) Regarding the metric of entropy.

You argue that the concept of entropy does not make sense to use in a system without a clear purpose and mesurable input/output. You also argue that the human mind and presumably the social systems that derive from it have an unknown/undefined purpose thus making the concept inapplicable.

You are making deep metaphysical assumptions when you argue that the mind and thus humanities purpose is unknown which I would challenge but let's set that aside for now.

Metaphysics aside there are reasons in information theory to doubt your strict interpretation of entropy. Here are two post you may find interesting.

Entropy is Information
Entropy and Freedom

The first is a discussion on the relationship between entropy and information by Anonymint that is informative. The second is an excerpt from the book Knowledge and Power by George Gilder where the relationship between entropy and freedom is explored.

2) Regarding misconceptions about freedom.

I agree that many people whon claim to seek "freedom" are really seeking to escape responsibility and deny the consequences of their actions. I also agree that ascesis is a necessary and vital part of maximizing freedom. What is also needed, however, is an overarching organizational framework to build freedom upon. Some organizing principles are superior to others. I outlined my thoughts on this issue in the following post.

The Nature of Freedom

3) Regarding the association of marxism with state power.

The association of marxism with state power is simply an observation of the reality of marxism when actually applied.

Marxism is all about no class, no horizontal organization, no religion (other then marxism), and redistribution for the "common good".

However, class, horizontal organization, and religion form naturally based on merit and free association. Thus marxism can only achieve its aims via suppression of these things which requires a state to control/eliminate the anti-marxist thinking.

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June 16, 2017, 12:46:55 PM
 #2920

Hello IadixDev welcome,

Sounds like you are involved in some coding project. What are you working on?


Originally the project was iadix.com, but the guy who was into the ICO plan parted away, so i made another plan i will come back soon with the new site and more detailed explanation, but the global idea is to replace the usual triangle of database / webserver / script by a single node who use the blockchain as database, with a system of service based on portable binary modules and RPC/CGI interface export, and a system of script to generate HTML5/js web pages based on the node/blockchain data like php would do with database, and generating html in the page for the HTML5 app with in browser crypto, transaction signing and staking, and some test with raytracing and distributed web database and HTTP api for HTML5 applications.


Your post above raises a number of deep concepts I will address some of them below.

1) Regarding the metric of entropy.

You argue that the concept of entropy does not make sense to use in a system without a clear purpose and mesurable input/output. You also argue that the human mind and presumably the social systems that derive from it have an unknown/undefined purpose thus making the concept inapplicable.

You are making deep metaphysical assumptions when you argue that the mind and thus humanities purpose is unknown which I would challenge but let's set that aside for now.

Metaphysics aside there are reasons in information theory to doubt your strict interpretation of entropy. Here are two post you may find interesting.

Entropy is Information
Entropy and Freedom

The first is a discussion on the relationship between entropy and information by Anonymint that is informative. The second is an excerpt from the book Knowledge and Power by George Gilder where the relationship between entropy and freedom is explored.


The above post seem to be confusing this concept of emerging properties and entropy =)

In the context of thermodynamics, the level of entropy is measured as defect from the expected output.


2) Regarding misconceptions about freedom.

I agree that many people whon claim to seek "freedom" are really seeking to escape responsibility and deny the consequences of their actions. I also agree that ascesis is a necessary and vital part of maximizing freedom. What is also needed, however, is an overarching organizational framework to build freedom upon. Some organizing principles are superior to others. I outlined my thoughts on this issue in the following post.

The Nature of Freedom


IMO if you are waiting on other people to build a structure you agree to be free, you are never really free at all Cheesy  Society, tradition, religion, all about volontary bondage Cheesy



3) Regarding the association of marxism with state power.

The association of marxism with state power is simply an observation of the reality of marxism when actually applied.

Marxism is all about no class, no horizontal organization, no religion (other then marxism), and redistribution for the "common good".

However, class, horizontal organization, and religion form naturally based on merit and free association. Thus marxism can only achieve its aims via suppression of these things which requires a state to control/eliminate the anti-marxist thinking.

Well the problem is that historically, the people who called themselves 'marxists' were all more or less soviet agent, carrying their own subversive agenda to out throw certain regimes, and it was all about centralization toward moscow, but it's what in technical term after people call more leninism, which when a nomemklatur of people decide everything without counter-party, but in the end capitalism is also some form of leninism but with different economic theory to justify the power of some people through investment and different priorities for society. In capitalist / fordist society, all decision power come to stake holders which can be pretty much like a nomemklatur, and it's not like corporation love freedom and decentralization that much.
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