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Author Topic: Economic Devastation  (Read 503949 times)
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November 30, 2015, 09:19:53 AM
 #2201

Country was Finland and year 1992-1993
Historically, banks do call back loans. In the US the signal to do this is a rise in the federal funds target rate.  This target is set by a meeting of the members of the Federal Open Market Committee occurs eight times a year. The federal funds target rate essentially determines the federal funds rate which represents the cost to the bank of procuring more reserves. Typically this rate is increased in response to inflation.


Banks might recall loans but I believe the main Federal interest rate will remain (too) low because they do not want to recall on the biggest debtor of all which is Washington and that bias is what we can expect to cause loose money or has already even

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November 30, 2015, 02:37:34 PM
 #2202

Ok we have gone to deep in the rabbid hole,
Banks will not call back loans en mass as a means of a "neutron bomb" trying to control us. Banks calling back loans as they learned in the 20's is the fastest way to close down shop, it signals that bank has essentially lost control and is on the brink of bankrupcy.

So it's not a choice that they will make hence my "banks never never ever call back loans"
The banks creates loans as a battery creates potential to drive a circuit, when it stops to do that it means you need to change the battery.

No one ever said banks are going to call back loans en mass globally that would be counterproductive. Selectively cutting off access to the financial markets to rogue nations that threaten the status quo, however, is a powerful tool of control and there is little reason to think it will not be used.  

-snip-

I believe we are witnessing the gradual but inevitable death of nationalism and the modern nation state. A developing unity through debt if you will.


It will not happen even in at national level (as was the original claim i think), at least not forced to do so as long as they have CB backing. In Yourope it could happen I guess if ECB decides to destroy the banking system of e member, but I don't think that likely, as it will certainly be the last act of ECB.

I don't think that nationalism will be dead, instead it will be on the rise, because lets face it, we are in a class war, and the last thing TPB want is to unify the people, so they are going to divide and conquer by playing the nationalist card.


Regarding malpractice by banks to SMEs, I'd suggest searching "RBS" + "Tomlinson"

As a separate issue there is a report on Finland's crises 174043.pdf that suggests
that a failure to moderate the deregulation of Finland's banks and savings institutions
followed by hot money inflows, made worse by the Soviet collapse, caused a sharp
contraction in GDP and jobs.

I'd guess that bitcoin would be unable to mitigate either of these problems.

Just Googled it seems RBS will be required to settle, but that was a fraud not malpractice as in pumping a debt bubble in the Euro periphery that was in retrospect inevitable due to the dynamic of the common currency

Bitcoin can only replace the payments system, and frankly the payments system should become public infrastructure, segregated and insulated from the risk of investment,
Banks very comfortable have placed themselves as a single point of failure in the economy, hopefully that will change and they will just have one job. Evaluate the risk of an Investment
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December 01, 2015, 02:36:00 AM
Last edit: December 01, 2015, 06:48:28 AM by CoinCube
 #2203


...

I believe we are witnessing the gradual but inevitable death of nationalism and the modern nation state. A developing unity through debt if you will.


It will not happen even in at national level (as was the original claim i think), at least not forced to do so as long as they have CB backing. In Yourope it could happen I guess if ECB decides to destroy the banking system of e member, but I don't think that likely, as it will certainly be the last act of ECB.

Not only is the ECB fully capable of destroying the banking system of a member it has utilized this power very recently on your own country when it threatened the destruction of the Greek banking system unless Greece capitulated politically.

Quote from: marketwatch
There will be no more emergency lending to Greek banks if the country's government fails to secure a bailout deal with lenders, European Central Bank Governing Council member Christian Noyer said on Wednesday. Speaking on French radio station Europe 1

After this threat was leveled Greece immediately capitulated and a bailout deal was announced the next day.

Emergency lending assistance (ELA) from the ECB is the functional equivalent of discount window lending by the FED. It is the mechanism put in place following the Great Depression to prevent the bank runs from causing bank failures. For banks under systemic stress like those in Greece being cut off from ELA means immediate insolvency.

The conditions demanded of Greece was the surrender of some 50 billion of state assets as collateral the agreement that it's bailout debt would be subject to European not greek law and the surrender of Greek control over its banking sector.

Quote from: zerohedge
One of the preconditions imposed on Greece for a deal is that it signs into law European rules that would put euro zone authorities at the ECB and in Brussels, rather than Athens, in charge of identifying and closing or breaking up sick banks.
 
This in turn could lead to a shake-up of the sector that could see some banks close, with losses pushed onto bondholders and possibly even large depositors. In such circumstances, there would be little that Athens could do to prevent this.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-13/greece-just-lost-control-its-banks-and-why-deposit-haircuts-are-still-coming

The cap on ELA aid to Greece is now being reduced in preparation for the next crisis.

Quote from: zerohedge
ATHENS Oct 7 (Reuters) - The European Central Bank on Tuesday lowered the ceiling for emergency liquidity assistance (ELA) Greek lenders can tap from the Greek central bank to 87.9 billion euros from 88.9 billion euros

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSA8N11H01220151007

The reduction in ELA will give the Greek government less room to maneuver when the next downturn becomes yet another banking crisis. Further concessions and transfers of sovereignty will occur at that time in exchange for another deal to kick the can further down the road.

I mean no disrespect when I say this but I believe your country is rapidly transitioning from the Greek nation state to the European state of Greece. The reelection of Syrzia indicates that the majority of the Greek population is either unwilling to disrupt their dependence on government profligacy or afraid of change and will choose to continue surrendering sovereignty rather then face a economic pain.

There is nothing unique about the Greek situation. All of Europe is essentially in the same boat and I fully expect Greece will soon be joined by the European states of Portugal and Spain followed by the rest of Europe. Eventually I suspect the same forces will force a consolidated Europe to surrender sovereignty to some larger supranational government. Political consolidation will not change the underlying instability or viability of the fiat system, but it may buy time and prevent widespread war.

I don't think that nationalism will be dead, instead it will be on the rise, because lets face it, we are in a class war, and the last thing TPB want is to unify the people, so they are going to divide and conquer by playing the nationalist card.

Conflicts between the relatively rich and the poor certainly look like they will get worse in the near future as enraged and impoverished masses turn on both the productive elite and especially their governments demanding further assistance. Governments response (more debt) will prove ineffective and the nation state will be held up as incompetent and incapable of managing basic governance. I suspect supranational organizations will be widely promoted as the superior and only solution.

The long term goal of TPTB is not to divide but to unify people under a system they control. Strong nation states and nationalism are an big obstacle to realizing this goal. As a thought experiment I suggest reading the news with the inkling that that their may be powerful actors seeking to undermine the internal cohesiveness of all nation states.

No one can truly know exactly what will happen in the future but the above scenario is how I think the coming sovereign debt crisis will play out.

Modern finance seems to be progressively undermining the nation state and driving political consolidation across national borders. Perhaps this will allow us to more quickly transition to something better. I certainly would not defend the track record of the nation state and strong government. A close look at WWI and WWII would disabuse any rational observer of that notion.      

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December 01, 2015, 04:07:55 AM
 #2204


...

I believe we are witnessing the gradual but inevitable death of nationalism and the modern nation state. A developing unity through debt if you will.


It will not happen even in at national level (as was the original claim i think), at least not forced to do so as long as they have CB backing. In Yourope it could happen I guess if ECB decides to destroy the banking system of e member, but I don't think that likely, as it will certainly be the last act of ECB.

Not only is the ECB fully capable of destroying the banking system of a member it has utilized this power very recently on your own country when it threatened the destruction of the Greek banking system unless Greece capitulated politically.

Quote from: marketwatch
There will be no more emergency lending to Greek banks if the country's government fails to secure a bailout deal with lenders, European Central Bank Governing Council member Christian Noyer said on Wednesday. Speaking on French radio station Europe 1

After this threat was leveled Greece immediately capitulated and a bailout deal was announced the next day.

Emergency lending assistance (ELA) from the ECB is the functional equivalent of discount window lending by the FED. It is the mechanism put in place following the Great Depression to prevent the bank runs from causing bank failures. For banks under systemic stress like those in Greece being cut off from ELA means immediate insolvency.

The conditions demanded of Greece was the surrender of some 50 billion of state assets as collateral the agreement that it's bailout debt would be subject to European not greek law and the surrender of Greek control over its banking sector.

Quote from: zerohedge
One of the preconditions imposed on Greece for a deal is that it signs into law European rules that would put euro zone authorities at the ECB and in Brussels, rather than Athens, in charge of identifying and closing or breaking up sick banks.
 
This in turn could lead to a shake-up of the sector that could see some banks close, with losses pushed onto bondholders and possibly even large depositors. In such circumstances, there would be little that Athens could do to prevent this.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-13/greece-just-lost-control-its-banks-and-why-deposit-haircuts-are-still-coming

The cap on ELA aid to Greece is now being reduced in preparation for the next crisis.

Quote from: zerohedge
ATHENS Oct 7 (Reuters) - The European Central Bank on Tuesday lowered the ceiling for emergency liquidity assistance (ELA) Greek lenders can tap from the Greek central bank to 87.9 billion euros from 88.9 billion euros

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSA8N11H01220151007

The reduction in ELA will give the Greek government less room to maneuver when the next downturn becomes yet another banking crisis. Further concessions and transfers of sovereignty will occur at that time in exchange for another deal to kick the can further down the road.

I mean no disrespect when I say this but I believe your country is rapidly transitioning from the Greek nation state to the European state of Greece. The reelection of Syrzia indicates that the majority of the Greek population is either unwilling to disrupt their dependence on government profligacy or afraid of change and will choose to continue surrendering sovereignty rather then face a economic pain.

There is nothing unique about the Greek situation. All of Europe is essentially in the same boat and I fully expect Greece will soon be joined by the European states of Portugal and Spain followed by the rest of Europe. Eventually I suspect the same forces will force a consolidated Europe to surrender sovereignty to some larger supranational government. Political consolidation will not change the underlying instability or viability of the fiat system, but it may buy time and prevent widespread war.

I don't think that nationalism will be dead, instead it will be on the rise, because lets face it, we are in a class war, and the last thing TPB want is to unify the people, so they are going to divide and conquer by playing the nationalist card.

Conflicts between the relatively rich and the poor certainly look like they will get worse in the near future as enraged and impoverished masses turn on both the productive elite and especially their governments demanding further assistance. Governments response (more debt) will prove ineffective and the nation state will be held up as incompetent and incapable of managing basic governance. I suspect supranational organizations will be widely promoted as the superior and only solution.

The long term goal of TPB is not to divide but to unify people under a system they control. Strong nation states and nationalism are an big obstacle to realizing this goal. As a thought experiment I suggest reading the news with the inkling that that their may be powerful actors seeking to undermine the internal cohesiveness of all nation states.

If things play out like I have described above I am not at all certain that the end result will be harmful in the long run.

Modern finance seems to be progressively undermining the nation state and driving political consolidation across national borders. Perhaps this will allow us to more quickly transition to something better. I certainly would not defend the track record of the nation state and strong government. A close look at WWI and WWII would disabuse any rational observer of that notion.      

THIS IS TBTP I MEAN TPTB
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December 01, 2015, 09:21:37 PM
 #2205


After this threat was leveled Greece immediately capitulated and a bailout deal was announced the next day.


For me that was an empty threat (but it worked). But if they carried on by destroying the greek banking system I don't think ECB would live much longer.

Quote from: CoinCube

Conflicts between the relatively rich and the poor certainly look like they will get worse in the near future as enraged and impoverished masses turn on both the productive elite and especially their governments demanding further assistance. Governments response (more debt) will prove ineffective and the nation state will be held up as incompetent and incapable of managing basic governance. I suspect supranational organizations will be widely promoted as the superior and only solution.

The long term goal of TPTB is not to divide but to unify people under a system they control. Strong nation states and nationalism are an big obstacle to realizing this goal. As a thought experiment I suggest reading the news with the inkling that that their may be powerful actors seeking to undermine the internal cohesiveness of all nation states.

No one can truly know exactly what will happen in the future but the above scenario is how I think the coming sovereign debt crisis will play out.

Modern finance seems to be progressively undermining the nation state and driving political consolidation across national borders. Perhaps this will allow us to more quickly transition to something better. I certainly would not defend the track record of the nation state and strong government. A close look at WWI and WWII would disabuse any rational observer of that notion.      


Markets certainly are interested in a level playing field where there are no borders, capital controls, and unified legal framework. But markets don't always get what they want, for every action there is a reaction. But markets are not TPTB, they are their control tool among many.  The Nazi parties across europe on the rise are another control tool, as is religion, threat of terrorism, austerity, unemployement etc. They will use the tool that offers the most control in every situation and right now with that is Nationalism.
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December 01, 2015, 11:14:57 PM
 #2206

"Markets certainly are interested in a level playing field where there are no borders, capital controls"

The Eurozone, as envisaged a few months before the events in Paris, _requires_ free movement
of people to function. Unemployed and underemployed Portugese, Irish, Italians, Greeks and
Spaniards, are supposed to relocate to areas where labour resources are deficient. Similarly,
goods and capital are _required_ to freely flow within the Eurozone.

Absent free flows of people, goods and capital, the economic advantages of the Eurozone are lost.
It will be impossible to move onto the next level, a political union. Certainly there is no chance of
France giving control of its budget to foreigners if it is now locking down its borders. And if
sovereign states are saying no to central control, it is only a matter of time and opportunity
for sovereign currencies to be re-introduced. Unfortunately, that brings with it a risk of war.

France's unilateral imposition of totalitarian controls - I will not call them laws - means the
end, certainly of the Euro, unless other states also move to enact identical controls.

Oh, and that 1% rounding error masquerading as economic growth - smile as you wave goodbye!
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December 02, 2015, 10:35:03 AM
 #2207

It is a sad irony that Brazil, the first country to call out the Currency War in 2010, is all but completely stuffed partly due to said Currency War.

Once the growth story of Latin America, now every metric is in long term decline, interest rates have been jacked up to fight devaluation, unemployment climbing.

http://wolfstreet.com/2015/12/01/brazil-just-keeps-getting-worse-and-worse/



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December 02, 2015, 06:27:54 PM
 #2208

Yellen moves Fed to brink of December rate hike

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — Federal Reserve Chairwoman Janet Yellen on Wednesday made it pretty clear she’ll support the central bank’s first interest-rate increase in nine years when policy makers meet in two weeks.

In a speech to the Economic Club of Washington, Yellen said she expects the economy to continue to grow over the forecast horizon, adding more jobs and bringing inflation back up toward the central bank’s 2% annual target.

“I currently judge that U.S. economic growth is likely to be sufficient over the next year or two to result in further improvement in the labor market,” Yellen said.


What could go wrong?  Grin

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/yellen-moves-fed-to-brink-of-december-rate-hike-2015-12-02

Chaos could be a form of intelligence we cannot yet understand its complexity.
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December 02, 2015, 06:37:39 PM
 #2209

Yellen moves Fed to brink of December rate hike

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — Federal Reserve Chairwoman Janet Yellen on Wednesday made it pretty clear she’ll support the central bank’s first interest-rate increase in nine years when policy makers meet in two weeks.

In a speech to the Economic Club of Washington, Yellen said she expects the economy to continue to grow over the forecast horizon, adding more jobs and bringing inflation back up toward the central bank’s 2% annual target.

“I currently judge that U.S. economic growth is likely to be sufficient over the next year or two to result in further improvement in the labor market,” Yellen said.


What could go wrong?  Grin

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/yellen-moves-fed-to-brink-of-december-rate-hike-2015-12-02

They wont raise the rates. Its just another communication thing.
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December 04, 2015, 01:03:08 AM
Last edit: December 04, 2015, 07:59:50 AM by TPTB_need_war
 #2210

If peer review supports the soundness of RingCT cryptography interest could expand exponentially. There are more potential uses than I can count and this is the most promising privacy technology I have seen so far. The inability to verify the number of coins in circulation with ZeroCoin scares me.  At least if something goes wrong with the money supply system with RingCT we would be able to tell.

I am quite confident that blockchain privacy is not a huge topic anymore. Of course RingCT may draw some extra attention to Monero. However, in my opinion that still would not be relevant.

The fintech is finally converging on the markets and real business issues. However, real business that has money doesn't care about privacy, it's simply of out scope. There is no huge ass real world problem in it that could be backed by corporate money that will stimulate adoption and attention.

This still maybe a great update and it serves privacy goals well. However, privacy protection issue is still a small niche, not a mass phenomenon.

Disagree. Real business and corporate money will struggle greatly with transparent blockchains. They don't have the same exact privacy goals as individuals and freedom advocates, but they have their own. In particular, not wanting to be spied on by competitors nor front run in markets. That's why, for example, CT is critically important even in Blockstream's closed blockchain Liquid.

Privacy from the NSA, when the NSA means the largest globalist corporations (politically connected with the global police state) have asymmetric access to secrets?

Making anonymity that is immune to the global police state is an immense challenge especially for businesses, because they can't just go hop on another anonymous WiFi connection every time they want to interact with the block chain (and that won't even help you individually with a low scale coin like Monero, because you are the only person hopping on anonymous WiFi in your geographical area so your transactions can still be correlated!). Making an IP address mixnet that is immune to a party which can see all traffic over the internet is an extremely challenging if not implausible statistically. I have been thinking deeply for a long time about the sort of attacks that are possible on mixnets and nothing (that I've analyzed) seems to entirely immune.

A generative essence realization is there is no possible way to obfuscate your IP address with an autonomous cryptographic protocol (such as RIngCT or Cryptonote). The only way to obfuscate IP addresses is with an interactive mixnet, which then either incurs a simultaneity requirement or the mixnet must generalize to many forms of internet traffic so a sufficient mix set always available. But especially generalized mixnets suffer from Sybil attacks because of the cost of scaling relaying nodes scales with traffic and DDoS. As smooth knows from our past private discussions (afair last year), my only idea on how to attack the Sybil problem of Tor and I2P is to pay the nodes you are want to relay through for an onion routing. But this comes with another set of holistic issues. So far, I haven't been able to design the system that is immune to the NSA. I am still working on this problem, but have deprioritized it, because to my consternation it is such an intractable quagmire (a.k.a. clusterfuck).

So let's say we only want privacy against other smaller corporations that don't have special access to NSA analysis. Yet now we must assume the NSA can't be hacked or individual employees bribed. And the NSA is not the only national security agency doing this. We have at least the 5 Eyes nations plus Russia and China with sophisticated, well funded national security agencies.

Can you know understand better why Martin Armstrong (and I reguritated) that a Dark Age is possible?

The world is in a pickle. I am doing my best to try to find a way out. I am now thinking perhaps anonymity is not the ticket (yet continuing to develop and consider it, as an option) and instead massive volume of micro-transactions might be more liberating. In short, to pursue my Knowledge Age theory of breaking the Theory of the Firm down to individualized production. In short, death the corporation as being too slow to even effectively use the data it is accumulating. If you read my 2010 thesis linked from the OP of the Economic Devastation thread (in the Economics forum), you can gain insight into what I am referring to where I explained that top-down access to information is not knowledge creation. Knowledge creation is accretive, spontaneous, and highly individualized.

Paradigm shift. I am apparently good at creating those, not so much at the intricate patterns of chess (too many intricacies are burdensome to the degrees-of-freedom to see over the forest). In short, I prefer deforestation paradigms.

Privacy from the NSA, when the NSA means the largest globalist corporations (politically connected with the global police state) have asymmetric access to secrets?

No, privacy from every idiot who wants to front-run you, or play amateur detective and figure out a lot of private things about your business or personal affairs and publish them. I've seen both happen on this forum.

Most businesses and people are just too obscure and unimportant to warrant much interest from the NSA or from the largest globalist corporations. But they all have nosy neighbors, with varying degrees of sophistication.

Though if the global police state does evolve to the point where everyone is a person-of-interest, then indeed it will be a dark age, and it isn't clear whether cryptography and cryptocurrencies can help with that at all. Maybe.

Don't know if you read the edit I did on my prior post.

Problem is that if anyone is collecting that data (even if the NSA has no desire to analyze it or retain it forever), they can be potentially hacked or individual employees bribed. The prize is so valuable, it nearly insures another Edward Snowden will surface yet with a profit motive to exploit that dataset. The problem is that even to collect that data means they have peeping routers all over the major backbones and these are thus vulnerable to hacking and bribes, etc..

When we live in a world where it is possible to collect all data, then the defense against bad outcomes with your data (and the greater threat than the NSA w.r.t. to data aggregation may be Google, Ad Sense, and Facebook Likes) is perhaps not to depend on the implausibility of statistical correlation (which may not be so implausible as the naive assumption, e.g. per my examples above and in the general paradigmatic category), rather perhaps to depend on keeping your assets stored in micro-granular Knowledge Creation paradigms instead of stored monetary calls on labor (which I claim is a dying paradigm). The data aggregator can't do anything with aggregated data against a micro-granular asset with attributes perhaps orthogonal to the flows of popularity. I mean everyone can see which ventures are popular and trending by numerous means such as Google metrics. Transparency aids competition which accelerates knowledge creation. The government can't tax to death a populous activity without declaring a global Dark Age (which has never occurred, i.e. even during the Dark Age in Western Europe the prosperity trended up else where).

As for being vulnerable to haters, I am surely vulnerable by posting on this forum and not being anonymous. This seems to go along with any action on the internet. I read where some teenager in the Philippines shot another teenager because of some insulting remark about a girl friend on Facebook. I am not so sure that anonymity can be holistically ubiquitous to protect me from all the potential ways the internet spreads the opportunities to be hated and not anonymous. It seems anonymity for money is mostly focused on the concept of obscuring large monetary wealth, but I am arguing that perhaps that paradigm is dying and instead store wealth in knowledge creation ventures (ongoing and active wealth). Other than the risk of large wealth (and the obvious issues that raises) and being outspoken on the internet (and the conflicts that raises), my personal life story is a prime example of how risk to life and limb comes from chaotic, unexpected directions, so I don't know if focused on the very difficult issue of anonymous money transfer stands out as the greatest risk in most people's lives.

Any way I am not sure. So as I wrote, I am hedging my bets by still pursuing anonymity, but I have deprioritized it somewhat (not entirely) to focus more on micro-transactions.

Edit: I am contemplating whether it is possible that fungibility could be orthogonal to anonymity. Fungibility could first be defined as the ability to get your transactions into the majority consensus of the block chain, instead of a stricter definition that would require that anyone who accepts such a transaction can't be coerced nor hassled by the government nor whom ever. As long as you can get your transactions on the block chain, then if you spend them to parties that careless about coercion (e.g. in small morsels in social interactions where the government can't possibly go after every person who received a microtransaction). So instead of just anonymity designs, I have also been thinking a lot about how to insure block chain inclusion remains permissionless.

It seems anonymity for money is mostly focused on the concept of obscuring large monetary wealth, but I am arguing that perhaps that paradigm is dying and instead store wealth in knowledge creation ventures (ongoing and active wealth).

No, because these ventures will have large flows of money. Even if you are correct and storing monetary wealth is becoming irrelevant, moving it privately will still be desired.

Even things as mundane as Facebook likes can have proprietary knowledge behind them. Everyone can see when someone or something is getting a lot of Facebook likes, but not everyone can see how that popularity is being monetized, and the latter is what is really valuable.

Well that is the sort of statistical pattern that I think it implausible to hide if the person who needs to know thus can afford the resources to know.

I don't think in this Technocracy age of Big Data, one can't hope to obscure patterns on large data sets. The generative essence of the implausibility is that the statistical patterns hidden at one layer, leak into the next layer, so it becomes a requirement for a globally leak-proof synergy of activity in cyberspace. It seems futile from that high-level perspective. And I stubbornly didn't want to accept that, but having really looked deeply at the technical issues, I now lean to that being the hard reality.

That is why I posit that the paradigm of wealth stored in forms that others can easily emulate, tax, and expropriate is dying.

Rather as I suggest, if you have your wealth stored in forms that others can re-use but not entirely emulate/replace, then your "wealth" can't be siphoned away with any means of introspection. For example, see the modules I am adding to my Github account. Sure someone could copy those some where and basically run away with my effort to-date. But they'd be silly to do that, because they'd lose my ongoing knowledge to maintain and improve those modules. They'd be much better rewarded by contributing and re-using them with attribution. And from there, my wealth grows in units of active and ongoing knowledge creation. The monetization will come and I will be able to eat. The big story isn't whether I can buy a Maserati but whether I can impact the world in my small way.

Also I admit there will perhaps be a transitional phase from the economy we have to the Knowledge Age (and perhaps a totalitarian interlude, but isn't that my point about what is dying), so I have not yet tossed aside anonymity entirely. But I am increasingly seeing it as an albatross around my neck as it seems to mess up everything with scalability and still not give the assurances I wanted when I was originally so concerned about needing anonymity. i am still working through the details of it all, so let's see where I end up with my conclusions. If there is useful anonymity that integrates holistically with scaling, then I will be more positive about adding it so people who feel they need it can. But I also worry that they are creating for themselves a false sense of anonymity (and may be later shocked that their actions were not anonymous).

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December 05, 2015, 01:23:57 AM
 #2211

I am now thinking perhaps anonymity is not the ticket (yet continuing to develop and consider it, as an option) and instead massive volume of micro-transactions might be more liberating. In short, to pursue my Knowledge Age theory of breaking the Theory of the Firm down to individualized production. In short, death the corporation as being too slow to even effectively use the data it is accumulating. 

Transparency aids competition which accelerates knowledge creation. The government can't tax to death a populous activity without declaring a global Dark Age.

It seems anonymity for money is mostly focused on the concept of obscuring large monetary wealth

I am hedging my bets by still pursuing anonymity, but I have deprioritized it somewhat (not entirely) to focus more on micro-transactions.
Edit: I am contemplating whether it is possible that fungibility could be orthogonal to anonymity.

So instead of just anonymity designs, I have also been thinking a lot about how to insure block chain inclusion remains permissionless.

I posit that the paradigm of wealth stored in forms that others can easily emulate, tax, and expropriate is dying.

Also I admit there will perhaps be a transitional phase from the economy we have to the Knowledge Age (and perhaps a totalitarian interlude, but isn't that my point about what is dying), so I have not yet tossed aside anonymity entirely. But I am increasingly seeing it as an albatross around my neck as it seems to mess up everything with scalability and still not give the assurances I wanted when I was originally so concerned about needing anonymity. i am still working through the details of it all, so let's see where I end up with my conclusions. If there is useful anonymity that integrates holistically with scaling, then I will be more positive about adding it so people who feel they need it can. But I also worry that they are creating for themselves a false sense of anonymity (and may be later shocked that their actions were not anonymous).


I strongly agree with your recent line of thinking especially the parts I selectively highlighted above.

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December 05, 2015, 07:53:51 AM
 #2212

I am now thinking perhaps anonymity is not the ticket (yet continuing to develop and consider it, as an option) and instead massive volume of micro-transactions might be more liberating. In short, to pursue my Knowledge Age theory of breaking the Theory of the Firm down to individualized production. In short, death the corporation as being too slow to even effectively use the data it is accumulating.  

Transparency aids competition which accelerates knowledge creation. The government can't tax to death a populous activity without declaring a global Dark Age.

It seems anonymity for money is mostly focused on the concept of obscuring large monetary wealth

I am hedging my bets by still pursuing anonymity, but I have deprioritized it somewhat (not entirely) to focus more on micro-transactions.
Edit: I am contemplating whether it is possible that fungibility could be orthogonal to anonymity.

So instead of just anonymity designs, I have also been thinking a lot about how to insure block chain inclusion remains permissionless.

I posit that the paradigm of wealth stored in forms that others can easily emulate, tax, and expropriate is dying.

Also I admit there will perhaps be a transitional phase from the economy we have to the Knowledge Age (and perhaps a totalitarian interlude, but isn't that my point about what is dying), so I have not yet tossed aside anonymity entirely. But I am increasingly seeing it as an albatross around my neck as it seems to mess up everything with scalability and still not give the assurances I wanted when I was originally so concerned about needing anonymity. i am still working through the details of it all, so let's see where I end up with my conclusions. If there is useful anonymity that integrates holistically with scaling, then I will be more positive about adding it so people who feel they need it can. But I also worry that they are creating for themselves a false sense of anonymity (and may be later shocked that their actions were not anonymous).


I strongly agree with your recent line of thinking especially the parts I selectively highlighted above.

Thank you for appreciating my realizations. Then you'll probably find these excerpts of my follow-up appealing as well:

Hide Data, Not IP

So in general the privacy we want, may be to hide the data and not who is doing it.

So the government can still identify who is making those transactions and compel you to reveal your private keys or face the gulag, but in the normal use of the public block chain privacy is retained

Governments and police agencies will feel less threatened, yet some of the NSA-gone-amok indiscriminate big data collection will be foiled

Mix Data, Not Identity

Perhaps if it is possible to somehow mix currency data with smart contract data, it would make each more fungible in the sense that one can't construct a blacklist based on IP address of who is sending to the block chain if they don't even know which class of data they are black listing.

Also in general, I explained in the thread I linked to (and my coming research writeup will explain in more detail) why blacklisting by IP address in untenable any way. Thus I think the argument that anonymity of IP is essential for fungibility is being vacated.

Btw, I published a mini-"research paper" today (not a very math heavy or innovative one, rather mostly just an aggregation of data in one concise presentation with some of my insights).

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December 05, 2015, 06:02:29 PM
 #2213

I also agree with anonymints recent line of thinking and thats what led me to code up private certificates with provable ownership and history with encrypted data to your public key!

Check out my implementation https://github.com/syscoin/syscoin/blob/devstaging-servicesync/src/cert.cpp
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December 05, 2015, 06:50:38 PM
 #2214

Last Chance to anyone who has undeclared property in or outside Greece: If they voluntarily reveal them, then they will be able to salvage them.

Taxpayers will have one last chance to register undeclared incomes from mid December, according to Deputy Finance Minister, Tryphon Alexiadis. So whoever has undeclared property in or outside Greece and disclose voluntarily, they will be able to salvage. Otherwise, they risk faced by a confiscation of assets which were acquired with income not taxed.

Story Link.

Hopefully those that are sane have already renounced their citizenship.

Otherwise they get what they asked for, all their capital will be stolen, while they are begging for more "democracy" Cheesy

They should call their representatives and complain about this Cheesy Cheesy

How pathetic...

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December 05, 2015, 09:32:14 PM
Last edit: December 05, 2015, 10:04:45 PM by CoinCube
 #2215


I always experience a twinge of annoyance whenever I see a link like this.
Hey check out my cool idea.
Click link... Critical Error ... You lack the skills necessary to continue.

I strongly suspect that when I am 80 people like me will be like the old folks of today who cannot figure out email. Coding appears well on its way to becoming a basic primary skill alongside reading writing and arithmatic.

For us older "illiterate" folks in established careers the best approach to this problem is likely an acceptance of our pending obsolesce coupled with an investment in our children and grandchildren.

I put my kids in the following program.
https://www.codingwithkids.com/#

Quote
Coding with Kids programs advance students from the beginnings of computer programming to full mastery of computer science needed for the high school AP exam and beyond. They are designed to accommodate children of various experience levels and learning capabilities. Through our programs, we strive to inspire children to become innovators and creators in order to be successful in the STEM careers of tomorrow.


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December 05, 2015, 09:33:30 PM
Last edit: December 05, 2015, 09:50:07 PM by TPTB_need_war
 #2216

I also agree with anonymints recent line of thinking and thats what led me to code up private certificates with provable ownership and history with encrypted data to your public key!

Check out my implementation https://github.com/syscoin/syscoin/blob/devstaging-servicesync/src/cert.cpp

+1

I always experience a twinge of annoyance whenever I see a link like this.
Hey check out my cool idea.
Click link... Critical Error ... You lack the skills necessary to continue.

He should have a readme file if he doesn't already.

I believe the purpose of his work is to make it so you have a traceable HTTPS (TLS/SSL) certificate for a secure website which the NSA can't evesdrop on unless the authorities have issued a demand for your private key. It is well known that the NSA has probably backdoored most major HTTPS certificate companies, so they can snoop on encrypted traffic on the internet.

A certificate is an authority which says you can trust that the stated public key is the entity it claims to be.

I should explain more technical details of that to you, but I don't have the time to type it up.

P.S. now you know how I feel when I encounter math notation that I am not familiar with. Arghh. I can easily understand the concepts, but the notation is the barrier. I have been gradually pulling myself back up to speed on math notation, remembering some that I had forgotten (e.g. from Linear Algebra) and learning that I hadn't studied (e.g. that which comes from higher maths in number theory and algebraic geometry).

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December 05, 2015, 10:18:53 PM
Last edit: December 05, 2015, 10:31:56 PM by sidhujag
 #2217

I also agree with anonymints recent line of thinking and thats what led me to code up private certificates with provable ownership and history with encrypted data to your public key!

Check out my implementation https://github.com/syscoin/syscoin/blob/devstaging-servicesync/src/cert.cpp

+1

I always experience a twinge of annoyance whenever I see a link like this.
Hey check out my cool idea.
Click link... Critical Error ... You lack the skills necessary to continue.

He should have a readme file if he doesn't already.

I believe the purpose of his work is to make it so you have a traceable HTTPS (TLS/SSL) certificate for a secure website which the NSA can't evesdrop on unless the authorities have issued a demand for your private key. It is well known that the NSA has probably backdoored most major HTTPS certificate companies, so they can snoop on encrypted traffic on the internet.

A certificate is an authority which says you can trust that the stated public key is the entity it claims to be.

I should explain more technical details of that to you, but I don't have the time to type it up.

P.S. now you know how I feel when I encounter math notation that I am not familiar with. Arghh. I can easily understand the concepts, but the notation is the barrier. I have been gradually pulling myself back up to speed on math notation, remembering some that I had forgotten (e.g. from Linear Algebra) and learning that I hadn't studied (e.g. that which comes from higher maths in number theory and algebraic geometry).
I am doing a readme soon.

But not not a web based cert.. ssl certs are stupid cause the ones that are signed which windoz accepts as valid are all derived from a root ssl cert that nsa probably controls or atleast can coerce and boom every ssl site is readable.

These are general provable and auditable certificates with the ability to encrypt data associated with that cert to the public/priv key that controls the certificate. You can transfer or edit them and only you can view them unless you open up abd remove private option.


from the website:

"Using the cryptography of the blockchain; Issue, authorize, and exchange digital certificates of any kind. With Syscoin anyone can register as a certificate issuer and issue provably-unique certificates with content of any kind to one or multiple parties on the Syscoin blockchain. These certificates can be authenticated by anyone via Syscoin’s cryptographic proof of work.
 
This allows for the creation and free exchange of a any kind of digital asset such as ownership certificates, warranties, receipts, tickets, certifications, diplomas, software licenses."


So it kinda follows your methodology of everyone being able to see a certificate exists even who owns it which points to a canonical name in a syscoin alias so its easier to understand than keys and then an exchange of data through certificates or messages that are private with only access given to whom the owner chooses.
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December 05, 2015, 10:40:51 PM
 #2218

I may no restate my opinion that anonymity is not a priority for a currency to found the knowledge age upon, as actors would wish to create and sustain fame.
What it needs from a crypto as production entities get smaller in size and more networked is a way to orchestrate contracts with auto-orders and auto-payments that are triggered demand-side and are transmitted over a "contract-network".
Its the only way to make the jump to decentralized production, otherwise vertical and huge corps will still have the edge.
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December 05, 2015, 11:01:58 PM
 #2219

I may no restate my opinion that anonymity is not a priority for a currency to found the knowledge age upon, as actors would wish to create and sustain fame.
What it needs from a crypto as production entities get smaller in size and more networked is a way to orchestrate contracts with auto-orders and auto-payments that are triggered demand-side and are transmitted over a "contract-network".
Its the only way to make the jump to decentralized production, otherwise vertical and huge corps will still have the edge.

Astute. You describe some of the unique features I am designing into my "altcoin".

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December 05, 2015, 11:58:14 PM
 #2220

investment in our children and grandchildren.


Hahaha by leaving them quadrillions of public debt on their shoulders, and 80% taxes with bank bailout-bailin series coming around the corner.

Not to mention a ponzi scheme pension system that they will have to pay for.


I`m sorry but the old generation folks really fucked up (the ones that are 50+ right now), by letting this fiat ponzi so far.

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