Meanwhile in Ukraine... Revolution.

[Lethn]

If I had been in Obama's place, this is what I would have proposed. Opinions?

If Putin really is only interested in peace, how about US making it a joint effort and sending their own troops to stand and protect alongside the Russian troops. Not in a different area, where there will be tensions between areas protected by Russia and areas protected by US, but right in the exact same areas? Where the troops can mingle, talk, get to know each other, etc. If there is an actual threat of muslim uprising or Ukrainians attacking Russians, there will be more troops on the ground to keep the peace. Putin will get to feel vindicated about being right with regards to the claims about threat to his people, while being in a position of not being able to escalate to a war, with opposing troops being right there. And the actual troops will get to know each other and maybe build some comraderrie, which will hopefully keep them from wanting to shoot each other. At worst, US will have to admit that they just didn't see the possible threat to peace that Putin did.

I would have just had a vote in Crimea for all citizens on whether they actually wanted to join Russia or not, the problem with the people in power now is they both believe they know what's best and they don't give a shit about the opinions of their own people.

Here in the UK we're going to be having a referendum on the EU ( which I can't wait to vote on ) and the scots are going to have a vote on independence because the political pressure is so much that Cameron is going to have to do it, but of course he's trying to convince everyone and himself that Scotland needs the UK and that the UK should remain in the EU because it's in 'our' interest.

There is nothing more that a government or leader fears than somebody voting in total opposite to what they've constantly been touting is the 'best' decision for everybody, they hate it when people actively tell them to fuck off through the polls, an example of this is when Nick Clegg tried to push through a referendum on the Alternative Voting system, I think we came close to have 70% of the votes in the UK against it including me voting no.

I doubt the Ukraine government or anyone would ever allow such a move, because then that would mean all the politicians would be wrong, including Putin and Obama, because lets face it, Putin is most likely just using the Crimea as an excuse so if he says he wants to 'protect' the Ukraine as well and everybody votes against him he's going to have some explaining to do, I have of course not discounted the fact that there are lots of Russian ethnics in Crimea who would want to join the federation but if Russia was really that popular elsewhere in the Ukraine there wouldn't be all these problems in that country.

[hdbuck]

If I had been in Obama's place, this is what I would have proposed. Opinions?

If Putin really is only interested in peace, how about US making it a joint effort and sending their own troops to stand and protect alongside the Russian troops. Not in a different area, where there will be tensions between areas protected by Russia and areas protected by US, but right in the exact same areas? Where the troops can mingle, talk, get to know each other, etc. If there is an actual threat of muslim uprising or Ukrainians attacking Russians, there will be more troops on the ground to keep the peace. Putin will get to feel vindicated about being right with regards to the claims about threat to his people, while being in a position of not being able to escalate to a war, with opposing troops being right there. And the actual troops will get to know each other and maybe build some comraderrie, which will hopefully keep them from wanting to shoot each other. At worst, US will have to admit that they just didn't see the possible threat to peace that Putin did.

I would have just had a vote in Crimea for all citizens on whether they actually wanted to join Russia or not, the problem with the people in power now is they both believe they know what's best and they don't give a shit about the opinions of their own people.

Here in the UK we're going to be having a referendum on the EU ( which I can't wait to vote on ) and the scots are going to have a vote on independence because the political pressure is so much that Cameron is going to have to do it, but of course he's trying to convince everyone and himself that Scotland needs the UK and that the UK should remain in the EU because it's in 'our' interest.

There is nothing more that a government or leader fears than somebody voting in total opposite to what they've constantly been touting is the 'best' decision for everybody, they hate it when people actively tell them to fuck off through the polls, an example of this is when Nick Clegg tried to push through a referendum on the Alternative Voting system, I think we came close to have 70% of the votes in the UK against it including me voting no.

I doubt the Ukraine government or anyone would ever allow such a move, because then that would mean all the politicians would be wrong, including Putin and Obama, because lets face it, Putin is most likely just using the Crimea as an excuse so if he says he wants to 'protect' the Ukraine as well and everybody votes against him he's going to have some explaining to do, I have of course not discounted the fact that there are lots of Russian ethnics in Crimea who would want to join the federation but if Russia was really that popular elsewhere in the Ukraine there wouldn't be all these problems in that country.

i wish they'd do the same in my country.  

Hopefully i'll get to move in the UK

edit: putin just dont want the black sea to become some EU/US naval base (and i doubt he gives a shiet about the people there) since that would just mean nukes close to russia's borders.. no kidding

[hdbuck]

US crash to come...

-> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/russia-warns-could-reduce-to-zero-economic-dependency-on-us/articleshow/31403595.cms

An attempt to announce sanctions would end in a crash for the financial system of the United States, which would cause the end of the domination of the United States in the global financial system

buy buy buy

[fsb4000]

I hope you have the patience to listen to what Putin really say.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiKF8JN1qmk&list=UUpwvZwUam-URkxB7g4USKpg&feature=c4-overview

[niothor]

If I had been in Obama's place, this is what I would have proposed. Opinions?

If Putin really is only interested in peace, how about US making it a joint effort and sending their own troops to stand and protect alongside the Russian troops. Not in a different area, where there will be tensions between areas protected by Russia and areas protected by US, but right in the exact same areas? Where the troops can mingle, talk, get to know each other, etc. If there is an actual threat of muslim uprising or Ukrainians attacking Russians, there will be more troops on the ground to keep the peace. Putin will get to feel vindicated about being right with regards to the claims about threat to his people, while being in a position of not being able to escalate to a war, with opposing troops being right there. And the actual troops will get to know each other and maybe build some comraderrie, which will hopefully keep them from wanting to shoot each other. At worst, US will have to admit that they just didn't see the possible threat to peace that Putin did.

I would have just had a vote in Crimea for all citizens on whether they actually wanted to join Russia or not, the problem with the people in power now is they both believe they know what's best and they don't give a shit about the opinions of their own people.

Here in the UK we're going to be having a referendum on the EU ( which I can't wait to vote on ) and the scots are going to have a vote on independence because the political pressure is so much that Cameron is going to have to do it, but of course he's trying to convince everyone and himself that Scotland needs the UK and that the UK should remain in the EU because it's in 'our' interest.

There is nothing more that a government or leader fears than somebody voting in total opposite to what they've constantly been touting is the 'best' decision for everybody, they hate it when people actively tell them to fuck off through the polls, an example of this is when Nick Clegg tried to push through a referendum on the Alternative Voting system, I think we came close to have 70% of the votes in the UK against it including me voting no.

I doubt the Ukraine government or anyone would ever allow such a move, because then that would mean all the politicians would be wrong, including Putin and Obama, because lets face it, Putin is most likely just using the Crimea as an excuse so if he says he wants to 'protect' the Ukraine as well and everybody votes against him he's going to have some explaining to do, I have of course not discounted the fact that there are lots of Russian ethnics in Crimea who would want to join the federation but if Russia was really that popular elsewhere in the Ukraine there wouldn't be all these problems in that country.

i wish they'd do the same in my country.  

Hopefully i'll get to move in the UK

edit: putin just dont want the black sea to become some EU/US naval base (and i doubt he gives a shiet about the people there) since that would just mean nukes close to russia's borders.. no kidding

There are already enough places for a EU/Nato fleet at the Black sea.
You're forgetting Romania and Bulgaria

[st4nl3y]

i think putin has already sanctioned US

[rmines]

Good thing that Putin denied any Russian soldiers are in Crimea at the moment.
If the Ukrainians would start firing on them, he can't abuse that to start a war.

[fsb4000]

Good thing that Putin denied any Russian soldiers are in Crimea at the moment.
If the Ukrainians would start firing on them, he can't abuse that to start a war.

If the Ukrainians would start firing Crimeans Russia would protect Crimeans...

[pinky]

There are already enough places for a EU/Nato fleet at the Black sea.
You're forgetting Romania and Bulgaria

Take a look at the map and you will see that Crimea is like an island in the middle of the Black sea - there are not a lot better geostrategic locations on this planet: direct access to all countries surround by the sea and especially direct access to the heart of Russia, very easy to protect against invasion over land, perfect for missile base, the only access for Russia to the south seas can be cut any time, control over the straits of Bospor and kerch.

[bryant.coleman]

If the Ukrainians would start firing Crimeans Russia would protect Crimeans...

Not only that. That will give Putin justification to invade the whole of Eastern Ukraine.... including Donestk, Luhansk, Kharkiv, Kherson, Zaporizhia, Kirovohrad, Mikolayev, Odessa.....

[masterluc]

"Peaceful fighters for freedom" (Right sector) invades to local parliament and threaten people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fKIq8fE1CE

This is what democracy US supports.

[pioter]

"Peaceful fighters for freedom" (Right sector) invades to local parliament and threaten people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fKIq8fE1CE

This is what democracy US supports.

u need to do evrything when ruskie invade your cuntry !

[Rassah]

"Peaceful fighters for freedom" (Right sector) invades to local parliament and threaten people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fKIq8fE1CE

This is what democracy US supports.

Oh no! They're... They're... TALKING! I'm sure that's against the Geneva Conventions somewhere...

Seriously, dude, stop it with the stupid propaganda. Ukrainians protested because their government was becoming a dictatorship, not because they wanted to start up a fascist state. That's what Russia is working on.

[masterluc]

u need to do evrything when ruskie invade your cuntry !

that was far before russian invasion. and that was one of reasons

[pioter]

u need to do evrything when ruskie invade your cuntry !

that was far before russian invasion. and that was one of reasons

it was a revolution, u know what that mean ?

[bryant.coleman]

it was a revolution, u know what that mean ?

There was no revolution. A democratically elected government was overthrown by some local thugs, who were supported by the US and EU.

[pioter]

it was a revolution, u know what that mean ?

There was no revolution. A democratically elected government was overthrown by some local thugs, who were supported by the US and EU.

and thats a revolution, putin wash ur mind

[hdbuck]

it was a revolution, u know what that mean ?

There was no revolution. A democratically elected government was overthrown by some local thugs, who were supported by the US and EU.

and thats a revolution, putin wash ur mind

revolution means nothing. there is not a single revolution that led to a regime that actually was worth it. its just a big game of power where civil casualties are being referred to as acceptable. BS big time.

[fsb4000]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfzMnP3ilcI

[Nemo1024]

It was not a revolution, it was a coup d'etat by a Fascist group. True, the whole thing did start as a pro-EU vs. anti-EU protests. (The anti-EU demonstrations were never shown in the Western media and they were held mostly during week-ends as normal people had to go to work, while pro-EU Maidan-denizens recieved $50-a-day grants and food courtesy EU-emissars).  Note that during this whole process Russia was not involved - it were only EU/US politicians shuttling to and from Maidan, giving speeches there, escalating the situation. This one-sided "conflict" was largely resolved by a EU-mediated agreement between the democratically-elected president and the leaders of the opposition, which lead to forming of a coalition government and appointment of early presidential re-elections. This whole time the local militia was under direct orders to NOT use the force.

One week later EU/US forget about that agreement and coup d'etat is in full swing. The coalition government is overthrown by the Fascist Bandera-group. Sniper shots are fired by them on both civilians and the Berkut forces, leaving at least two dozen Berkut policemen dead (this was again toned down in the Western media).

The Fascists oust the legitimately elected president, and proclaim death to all Russians and Jews. One of the top-men is a terrorist insurgents, who fought in the Chechen conflict against Russia. Berkut is disbanded. Everyone in regular militia, who speak Russian are thrown out.

Crimean local government refuses to recognise the Fascist-appointed representative from Kiev, and issues an official request to Moscow, asking for protection. Based on this request, the upper cabinet gives Putin right to use military power outside of the country's border, should the need arise. In the meantime, Berkut fighters (who refused to see their comrades' deaths go to waste) and citizens organise self-defence groups on all inbound routes, seizing countless numbers of firearms and explosives that were attempted smuggled by Fascist supporters into Crimea.

Veterans of WWII proclaim that they defended Sevastopol and threw out German Fascists back in the 1940s not to see the Fascists come back to power now, asking this  generation not to allow blooming of Fascism.

Harkov citizens conducts a mass-demonstration under Russian flags, people asking Russia for protection, and ousting Fascist occupants who a few days before came from Kiev and built a militarised stronghold in the local government building.

The self-proclaimed government in Kiev decries Crimean moves is illegitimate, handily forgetting that they themselves conducted a coup d'etat a few days before, overthrowing a legitimately-elected president and government.

In the meantime US send its Secretary of State to Kiev to fraternise with the Fascists, openly declaring them support and offering money.

Crimea and Eastern Ukraine has over 70% of ethnically Russian population. If you go to Crimea, you will not hear anyone speaking Ukrainian there. If (which is more a question of when) the Fascist group who occupied Kiev come from the Western Ukraine (and is mainly of Austro-Polish-Lithvanian descent) would start cleansing of the Russian population (read: genocide), would you expect Russia to leave their people behind? No. Russians don't leave their men behind.

And if you think that genocide will not happen, let me remind you when the first concentration camps appeared and who they were intended for: Thalerhof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Austrian_internment)

And lastly, Crimea is to hold a referendum about its future state on the same day as the new Presidential elections. Crimea had already had one such referendum in the end of the 90's, where the majority voted for independence, yet those results were ignored by then pro-Western government. The same thing might happen this time around. Oh, and this year should also see a referendum for Scotland's independence. It would be interesting to see how they both will play out. I am afraid US/EU has a militarised scenario planned for Ukraine.

PS: On the topic of revolution: Ukraine has a population of ~44 million people. Pro-EU Maidan and the Fascist shadow fighters there counted in total about 20000 if not less. That's 0.045% of the total population. Yet they call themselves a government and proclaim to be the will of the people. Think about it.

"Peaceful fighters for freedom" (Right sector) invades to local parliament and threaten people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fKIq8fE1CE

This is what democracy US supports.

Oh no! They're... They're... TALKING! I'm sure that's against the Geneva Conventions somewhere...

Seriously, dude, stop it with the stupid propaganda. Ukrainians protested because their government was becoming a dictatorship, not because they wanted to start up a fascist state. That's what Russia is working on.

Talking like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GOsq1VzowI&list=UULDatcCbRzyUeu0WP1VRqQQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=386