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Rassah
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March 06, 2014, 04:24:22 AM |
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Note that during this whole process Russia was not involved - it were only EU/US politicians shuttling to and from Maidan, giving speeches there, escalating the situation.
I would ask for some sources on this, since this is the first time I hear of that, but after reading the rest of your crap, it's not worth it. I'd rather take my news from the person who was actually there on Maidan through most of it (my childhood friend), than some regurgitated Russian propaganda. And that you think Yanukovich was elected legitimately, or was a democratic president, pretty much seals the fact that you have no clue about what's really going on there. |
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bryant.coleman
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March 06, 2014, 05:35:35 AM |
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And that you think Yanukovich was elected legitimately, or was a democratic president, pretty much seals the fact that you have no clue about what's really going on there.
Yanukovich was elected legitimately. Do you have any proof of any sort of voter fraud? Even the EU / US observers certified that the elections were devoid of fraud. |
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pinky
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March 06, 2014, 08:15:16 AM |
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Note that during this whole process Russia was not involved - it were only EU/US politicians shuttling to and from Maidan, giving speeches there, escalating the situation.
I would ask for some sources on this, since this is the first time I hear of that, but after reading the rest of your crap, it's not worth it. I'd rather take my news from the person who was actually there on Maidan through most of it (my childhood friend), than some regurgitated Russian propaganda. And that you think Yanukovich was elected legitimately, or was a democratic president, pretty much seals the fact that you have no clue about what's really going on there. They say ignorance is a bliss.  Disclosure, I am from EU, have nothing to do with Russia or Ukraine or USA. It still amazes me how ignorant are Ukrainians (not all - but like 85%). They will have to stop believing their politicans and just look at the facts to come to some logical conclusions. The whole world is playing with them (from their own politicans to EU, USA and Russia). And of course it's easy for them to say it's others fault for all this - blame it all on Russians, when in fact they vote and trust politicians that steal from them and manipulate with them. Very sad things. http://www.flickr.com/photos/eeas/11313551164/http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/video/shotlist.cfm?ref=I086770http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-13-1060_en.htmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOlrH0bCIS0 |
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Nemo1024
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March 06, 2014, 01:20:41 PM |
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Note that during this whole process Russia was not involved - it were only EU/US politicians shuttling to and from Maidan, giving speeches there, escalating the situation.
I would ask for some sources on this, since this is the first time I hear of that, but after reading the rest of your crap, it's not worth it. I'd rather take my news from the person who was actually there on Maidan through most of it (my childhood friend), than some regurgitated Russian propaganda. And that you think Yanukovich was elected legitimately, or was a democratic president, pretty much seals the fact that you have no clue about what's really going on there. As mentioned already, Presidential elections leading to Yanukovich coming to power were under close scrutiny by US/EU observers, so unless US/EU fudged the results, he was and still is a legitimately elected president until re-elections occur. Anything else equals to coup d'etat and anarchy. Please note, that I am not saying that Yanukovich was not a greedy money-stealing so-and-so. He is not better or worse than Timoshenko in that respect. As for Western involvement, do go through recordings of Maidan speeches. They are most probably still available on Youtube. At least even Western media never showed any Russian politicians on stage, while various EU/US politicians got quite a lot of screen time walking the streets of Kiev and talking to the assembled masses, even giving inspirational speeches to Maidan before proceeding to the official part of their meeting the President, against any norms of diplomatic protocol. And to someone bringing up the question of gas. If Ukraine bought gas from Norway and didn't pay up its bills, Norway would find their gas deliveries cut off immediately. EU buys gas from Russia as well, but is paying the agreed price, so the gas keeps on flowing. Ukrainians are better off asking Timoshenko (well, and quiet probably Yanukovich as well) why Ukraine was not able to pay for the gas it received from Russia at below-market price, even though it was reselling the "excess" gas at quite some profit to EU. Yes, Ukraine turned into a pawn in bigger international (so far) political tug-of-war for regional control on Russian borders. Look who benefits from this: Russia does not want instability and potentially NATO military bases on its borders. It's enough with Poland, Baltic countries and Georgia, where NATO has it "anti-Iran" rocket shield (note to NATO: when concocting an excuse, make it at least geographically plausible) NATO (read US because EU countries are themselves are just pawns, as Snowden's disclosures recently showed) wants to weaken the region. They don't need strong EU, and they need strong Russia even less. Divide and conquer, saw discord between opposing allies has always been the way to go. It pains me to see that people often get blinded by the immediate happenings around them and fail to see the bigger picture, ignoring the history (Yugoslavia, anyone?) Ultimately, Russia needs Ukraine as a buffer, US needs Ukraine as a military base, EU needs Ukraine as an excess goods dump market and raw materials source. Fascists need to satiate their urge for power and their lust to kill. What does Ukraine need? PS: Other questions to ponder: Is there such a state as Ukraine? What was Ukraine before Lenin (whose monuments are toppled now) proclaimed it as a state and what does it want to be? These questions need to be answered by Ukrainians to define their vision on their state, independent from what the outside powers may want them to believe. Those answers will determine if Ukraine will stand against the current storm or if it will become the next Yugoslavia and a war playground fro NATO and Russia. |
“Dark times lie ahead of us and there will be a time when we must choose between what is easy and what is right.”
“We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.”
“It is important to fight and fight again, and keep fighting, for only then can evil be kept at bay, though never quite eradicated.”
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hdbuck
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March 06, 2014, 01:25:58 PM |
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Note that during this whole process Russia was not involved - it were only EU/US politicians shuttling to and from Maidan, giving speeches there, escalating the situation.
I would ask for some sources on this, since this is the first time I hear of that, but after reading the rest of your crap, it's not worth it. I'd rather take my news from the person who was actually there on Maidan through most of it (my childhood friend), than some regurgitated Russian propaganda. And that you think Yanukovich was elected legitimately, or was a democratic president, pretty much seals the fact that you have no clue about what's really going on there. They say ignorance is a bliss. Disclosure, I am from EU, have nothing to do with Russia or Ukraine or USA. It still amazes me how ignorant are Ukrainians (not all - but like 85%). They will have to stop believing their politicans and just look at the facts to come to some logical conclusions. The whole world is playing with them (from their own politicans to EU, USA and Russia). And of course it's easy for them to say it's others fault for all this - blame it all on Russians, when in fact they vote and trust politicians that steal from them and manipulate with them. Very sad things. http://www.flickr.com/photos/eeas/11313551164/http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/video/shotlist.cfm?ref=I086770http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-13-1060_en.htmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOlrH0bCIS0+1 and i would like to add that we're all in the same position.. not only Ukrainians are being fooled  |
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Rassah
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March 07, 2014, 04:53:42 AM |
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Yanukovich was elected legitimately. Do you have any proof of any sort of voter fraud?
Even the EU / US observers certified that the elections were devoid of fraud.
Yanukovish won in 2004, but the legitimacy of the election was questioned by many Ukrainians, international organizations, and foreign governments following allegations of electoral fraud. However, you are right, his 2010 election was apparently fair, so I'm wrong and withdraw my claim. |
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bryant.coleman
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March 07, 2014, 10:35:57 AM |
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Now this gives Putin the excuse to invade and annex the entire South and East Ukraine.  |
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niothor
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March 07, 2014, 10:52:59 AM |
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Now this gives Putin the excuse to invade and annex the entire South and East Ukraine. From my point of view that would be better. - in less than 4 years even the pro-russians will understand how good it is to be part of the big bad bear. - Romanians working in the EU will have one thing less to fear (millions of Ukraine working for even less). - tv stations and newspapers will stop talking about the fake Satoshi Nakamoto and turn their eyes to Ukraine again Hope that he does it fast enough to avoid any armed conflict. When people die , whatever the reason was , it's not a good thing. |
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Nemo1024
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March 07, 2014, 01:42:29 PM
Last edit: March 07, 2014, 03:05:40 PM by Nemo1024 |
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The urgency was heightened after the Crimean parliament abruptly – and unanimously – voted to secede from Ukraine and reposition the peninsula as part of Russia. It brought forward a referendum on secession to 16 March, but said such a vote would merely rubber-stamp its own decision. The sudden move elicited howls of protest from the new authorities in Kiev, and grave warnings from the west. Sudden move? What sudden move? Initially that referendum was appointed for the same day as presidential re-elections, but was later moved forward by two weeks. Also, this will not be the first referendum on this matter. On the 20th of January 1991, in the then still Soviet Union Krym held a referendum about becoming an independent Republic within Soviet Union. 93.26% of the population voted for it, yet the results were ignored and Krym was made an autonomous region within Ukrainian SSR. http://sevkrimrus.narod.ru/ZAKON/1991.htmIn the mean time Turchinov, who illegitimately seized power and proclaimed himself a president, declared Crimean referendum illegitimate and cancels it, also ordering disbanding of the legitimate Crimean parliament: http://ua-01.com/news/poltika/11562-turchinov-otmenyaet-provedenie-referenduma-v-krymu.html“In 2014, we are well beyond the days when borders can be redrawn over the heads of democratic leaders,” added Obama. "Democratic leaders" as defined by US. US had no scruples sending bombers into Yugoslavia and redrawing borders. You can't redraw borders over the heads of democratic leaders, but you can, according to Obama, redraw borders (or in this case prohibit to redraw borders) over the heads of ordinary people, even when said people express their wish to do so. This made me laugh: Dalia Grybauskaite, the Lithuanian president, demanded action to counter Russia’s “open and brutal aggression”. She said: “Russia today is trying to rewrite the borders of Europe after world war two, that is what’s going on. If we allow this to happen, next will be somebody else.” He is absolutely correct: Next will be Poland annexing Lithuania, and Romania annexing Moldova. Loved one of the comments to the article:
Some consistency problems here:
Voting in Scotland to secede from the UK: OK
Voting in Kosovo to secede from Serbia: OK
Voting in parts of Yugoslavia to secede from the the country: OK
Voting in Ukraine to secede from the Soviet Union: OK
Voting in Crimea to secede from Ukraine: NOT OK
Declaring Independence of the USA from the UK: OK
...
Apparently it depends on the interest and the point of view of an outside power and does not depend on what people in that area/country that wants to secede want.
It saddens me, but I start hearing the echoes of this WWII song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5qp4FBN0KUNote that the song never mentions any nationality, it is aimed against fascists. |
“Dark times lie ahead of us and there will be a time when we must choose between what is easy and what is right.”
“We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.”
“It is important to fight and fight again, and keep fighting, for only then can evil be kept at bay, though never quite eradicated.”
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myself
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chaos is fun...…damental :)
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March 07, 2014, 01:49:33 PM |
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Russian soldiers on Crimea reduce the legitimacy to the referendum, on the other hand without Russians troops there Ukraine will never allow a referendum, the perfect example for this is Spain where Catalonia and Basque country want to be independent (or more independent of spain) but Spain wont allow a referendum because the Spanish constitution don't allow it ( catch 22) and of course the constitution wont ever change
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Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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bryant.coleman
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March 07, 2014, 04:14:50 PM |
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Russian soldiers on Crimea reduce the legitimacy to the referendum Not if international observers are present. |
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myself
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chaos is fun...…damental :)
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March 07, 2014, 09:17:10 PM |
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Russian soldiers on Crimea reduce the legitimacy to the referendum Not if international observers are present. when USA and EU say the referendum is illegal there wont be any observers |
Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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mz1000
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March 07, 2014, 09:30:38 PM |
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Russian soldiers on Crimea reduce the legitimacy to the referendum Not if international observers are present. when USA and EU say the referendum is illegal there wont be any observers So if many of these nations won't recognise it, how can they recognise the Kosovan referendum? There's not much difference is there? |
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myself
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chaos is fun...…damental :)
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March 07, 2014, 11:25:05 PM |
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So if many of these nations won't recognise it, how can they recognise the Kosovan referendum?
There's not much difference is there?
u mean this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Kosovo_referendum,_2012 ? |
Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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bryant.coleman
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March 08, 2014, 01:53:48 AM |
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They are independent for almost 2 decades now. |
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