mtgox.com has blocked my account with 45 000 USD in it!

[theymos]

Some on here have suggested that innocent recipients of 'tainted' bitcoins should have to return them to the original owner (ie. victim of theft).

How exactly is a recipient of bitcoins supposed to determine if they are tainted?  Is there a master list somewhere of bitcoins under dispute? 

Unless there is some quick way of checking the legitimacy of coins it would seem reasonable to expect commerce to grind to a halt.

I have purchased most of the btc I own through mtgox.  Am I at risk of having these coins seized by mtgox because somewhere along the line, maybe months ago, some of these coins were involved in some dispute?

You can't check currently, since there is no public list of tainted coins. Even if you could check, you can't stop the current version of Bitcoin from sending those tainted coins.

For this kind of thing to happen to you, you'd have to receive the money from the original thief with a high amount of directness. If it does happen, you can prove your honesty by providing MtGox with the information he asks for. If you want anonymity, then maybe you shouldn't be moving tens of thousands of BTC through MtGox.

I don't think there's any desire to take money from an innocent trader to give back to the original victim. Rather, there is ambiguity in the block chain about whether someone is just an innocent trader or the original thief. The point is to resolve this ambiguity, and, if you are innocent, continue the investigation to the person who sent you the coins.

It's silly to criticize MtGox's "right" to take this action. You're sending the money to MtGox without any contract. It's his money. I always keep as little money in my MtGox account as possible -- even though I trust mtgox personally, I don't trust the site's security or the government in which it is located.

Unfortunately it appears that mtgox is running in a US datacenter. It also appears that Jed's contact information is public and that he is also in the US.

Jed is not located in the US, though the MtGox server is.

[Bimmerhead]

Request to send passport scan seems to be quite reasonable. Moreover, mtgox may be legally  required to do so. Send the the passport scan than. What's the problem?

Sure it's easy, if you already have a passport.  You can wait 20 days to get one in Canada.

[kiba]

I actually love all these mtgox scandals. It jerks up the BTC valuation due to all the panic exits, makes my mining contracts more attractive, plus there is something to flame about... how interesting and exciting.

I hereby must declare myself as a biased party.

* kiba sigh.

It could be anything.

[rebuilder]

It's silly to criticize MtGox's "right" to take this action. You're sending the money to MtGox without any contract. It's his money. I always keep as little money in my MtGox account as possible -- even though I trust mtgox personally, I don't trust the site's security or the government in which it is located.

Right smight. Rights are something granted by authorities to their subjects. You can talk about rights in court if you like, but the concept doesn't apply here. There is only the question of what mt gox's customers expect and what they will do if they feel their expectations are not met.

[BCEmporium]

Well... to sum it up: Welcome to the free market of trust.

If you don't want to feel like Baron... just don't go wild with 45K, unless you don't need them (in such case give them to me, I'm accepting donations )

As for innocence; nobody here is either 100% innocent or 100% guilty. Nevertheless, asking for passports in a currency which primarily aims for privacy is a joke! Like someone said: show me your money, not your face
As back checking nodes is yet another joke, so long for privacy, he! Something to think about on the project: Delete trails, whatever leaves trail isn't anonymous and if BTC wants to be an anonymous currency, as the money on my wallet, has to be able to delete its own trail within each transaction.
I know where I got those bills from, but I don't know who had them before the person who handed them to me... this is what money is when privacy is the matter.

[Mahkul]

Well... to sum it up: Welcome to the free market of trust.

If you don't want to feel like Baron... just don't go wild with 45K, unless you don't need them (in such case give them to me, I'm accepting donations )

As for innocence; nobody here is either 100% innocent or 100% guilty. Nevertheless, asking for passports in a currency which primarily aims for privacy is a joke! Like someone said: show me your money, not your face
As back checking nodes is yet another joke, so long for privacy, he! Something to think about on the project: Delete trails, whatever leaves trail isn't anonymous and if BTC wants to be an anonymous currency, as the money on my wallet, has to be able to delete its own trail within each transaction.
I know where I got those bills from, but I don't know who had them before the person who handed them to me... this is what money is when privacy is the matter.

+1

EDIT: This whole thing would only make sense if mtgox received those 45K as LR USD and then the LR themselves got onto him about it being stolen. But that's not the case here (I guess?). Bitcoin should be anonymous; if someone was stupid enough to get scammed - sorry. How on Earth did this guy manage to get 45K USD worth of (stolen)BTC?

[BitterTea]

currency which primarily aims for privacy

Bitcoin is a currency which primarily aims for decentralization, not privacy. It can be private, if you use it in the right manner, but keep in mind that all transactions are recorded in the block chain. Any privacy afforded is merely through obscurity.

[caveden]

Bitcoin should be anonymous; if someone was stupid enough to get scammed - sorry.

Oh please, I can't stand this kind of thinking, "fuck the stupid victim, he deserved it!".
Stop blaming the victims, blame the criminals!

[S3052]

+1

It seems very very likely that Baron is a scammer, and a smart one, trying to get people on the forum on his side.

Whatever the objective of bitcoin is, it is not right to help scammers.

[marcus_of_augustus]

Yes, I don't think anybody is arguing it is right to help scammers .... but is it the job of bitcoins to also judge who are the scammers?

There can be some very grey, subjective lines drawn and then it is no longer money you are talking about but trading in favours, indulgences, power, etc.

Money needs to be objective or it is useless as money.

It is a tool for measuring worth not judging the colour of mens' hearts, leave that to between the man and the almighty.

Chalk one up for gold and scratch one off for bitcoin in my book. (i.e. not fungible).

[BCEmporium]

Bitcoin should be anonymous; if someone was stupid enough to get scammed - sorry.

Oh please, I can't stand this kind of thinking, "fuck the stupid victim, he deserved it!".
Stop blaming the victims, blame the criminals!

Your black & white World surely has a big problem... first you can't tell who's the scammer, taken mtgox has the money and is holding it without even bother with this thread, mtgox IS the scammer or the "main scammer" here.
Then a site that operates without any financial license whatsoever nor supervision, that pays out by the "bank of the scammers", which happens to be "Liberty Reserve" (where "Liberty" stands for... ok, you got it, you get away with it), against a guy that just happens to have 45k USD at that same "bank" (sorry folks, but Liberty Reserve isn't even a bank, it's a... "thing to stash money" - which nobody knows where or how it comes from once you can't either directly deposit or withdraw. Convenient...)... For what concerns law and international conventions, caveden, you're dealing with 2 criminals. So... where do we stand?!

[S3052]

Apparently, there is a strong argument from MtGox (who, by the way, has played a significant role to drive thge bitcoin economy and idea).
The argument is that there is some evidence that this guy is a scammer.
Lets just wait for MtGox to work this out with baron.

[BitterTea]

Your black & white World surely has a big problem... first you can't tell who's the scammer, taken mtgox has the money and is holding it without even bother with this thread, mtgox IS the scammer or the "main scammer" here.
Then a site that operates without any financial license whatsoever nor supervision, that pays out by the "bank of the scammers", which happens to be "Liberty Reserve" (where "Liberty" stands for... ok, you got it, you get away with it), against a guy that just happens to have 45k USD at that same "bank" (sorry folks, but Liberty Reserve isn't even a bank, it's a... "thing to stash money" - which nobody knows where or how it comes from once you can't either directly deposit or withdraw. Convenient...)... For what concerns law and international conventions, caveden, you're dealing with 2 criminals. So... where do we stand?!

How long have you been a member of the Bitcoin community? How many dealings have you had with mtgox? I'm guessing none. Well, this community (generalizing) has a lot more trust in mtgox than Baron, and Baron hasn't done a very good job giving us a plausible narrative of events. Right now, the only way I would side with Baron over mtgox is if Baron plausibly describes exactly how this situation occurred, or if mtgox does not post a detailed writeup of this matter once it was complete.

[jgarzik]

How long have you been a member of the Bitcoin community? How many dealings have you had with mtgox? I'm guessing none. Well, this community (generalizing) has a lot more trust in mtgox than Baron, and Baron hasn't done a very good job giving us a plausible narrative of events. Right now, the only way I would side with Baron over mtgox is if Baron plausibly describes exactly how this situation occurred, or if mtgox does not post a detailed writeup of this matter once it was complete.

+1 agreed

[BCEmporium]

Apparently, there is a strong argument from MtGox (who, by the way, has played a significant role to drive thge bitcoin economy and idea).
The argument is that there is some evidence that this guy is a scammer.
Lets just wait for MtGox to work this out with baron.

That's not even an argument to be strong for starters. That's a claim and a confirmation, means Baron's claims checked, and taken he doesn't seams to bother much with it, it's a void claim. Or he's expecting this community to take his word blindfolded... and seams to have a bunch of followers. Will you create a religion also?
Now, I don't recognize mtgox any "bitcoin police" or "court" powers, so whatever he thinks he is doing is an abuse, a huge one because hurts the market trust, of powers.

BitterTea;

I really just made a few deals in mtgox's site for testing how BTC market was going, because I don't want LR money for nothing I just keep there, in case of... I don't know what. As I said Liberty Reserve itself for me stands for scam already. The only ones I see using it are those so called "Investment funds".

[Mahkul]

Bitcoin should be anonymous; if someone was stupid enough to get scammed - sorry.

Oh please, I can't stand this kind of thinking, "fuck the stupid victim, he deserved it!".
Stop blaming the victims, blame the criminals!

I said: how the hell did he manage to scam people for 45,000 USD without being detected earlier?

By being stupid I mean - how could you fall with the same guy for so many times? 45,000 USD is a lot of money. Just imagine, some new guy comes to the forum and says: I will buy your BTC for LR, or whatever. Very few people would even agree to that (sending the BTC first), but for the argument's sake, say someone trusted him and sent him 200BTC. Would anyone trade with the same guy before they confirmed that the first transaction went OK? I don't think so (or at least they would be aware of the risks). So, I am asking again, how come he was able to scam people for so much money?

Not to mention that you would have to be an idiot to keep 45K in an on-line account that has no terms and conditions etc.

[BCEmporium]

Not to mention that you would have to be an idiot to keep 45K in an on-line account that has no terms and conditions etc.

I see only 3 possible reasons:

You've a lot of cash, so 45K is nothing for you.
You think you found a great place to stash it (***eediot!***)
You're stupid.

EDIT: Here however there's something I've to give to mtgox. If a guy out of the blue puts 45K on my hand I would be over suspicious either. As a thing we use to say around: «When the dole is too big, the saint gets suspicious»

[Mahkul]

Not to mention that you would have to be an idiot to keep 45K in an on-line account that has no terms and conditions etc.

I see only 3 possible reasons:

You've a lot of cash, so 45K is nothing for you.
You think you found a great place to stash it (***eediot!***)
You're stupid.

EDIT: Here however there's something I've to give to mtgox. If a guy out of the blue puts 45K on my hand I would be over suspicious either. As a thing we use to say around: «When the dole is too big, the saint gets suspicious»

But mtgox said the transaction involved stolen BTCs, not USD; that's why I can't image how come he was able to collect 45K USD worth of BTC; unless some of it was legit.

Anyawy, I am sure mtgox has a very good reason for what he's doing and have a great deal of trust for him.

[BCEmporium]

I don't want to mistrust mtgox either, I know he runs his site for quite a long time now. As it looks he created it few time after I leaved Bitcoin (wasn't able to generate coins anymore - and it was mostly worthless anyway -, if at the beginning I generate like 100+/day by June I wasn't able to generate nothing for a whole month), seams trustworthy, personally except for LR, which drives me away of his site, I've nothing against (or for) him. But he has to realize that his reputation is at stake.
Come here and say: «I think it's stolen» is very very void, isn't it?
From Baron I already read enough, for the counter part a single line... despite how much this community think one should be trusted, there have to be limits on such trust.

If BTC or USD... I don't know. The topic says he's holding 45.000 USD not 45.000 BTC. He sold it? Bough it? Whatever... doesn't quite concern me.

[Baron]

I offered to mtgox.com solution, I will send him those 3000 USD , and he will unblock my account.
Curently I don't received confirmation from mtgox.com that he is accepting with this solution.

sincerely I don't understand what is going on.

Also Now he is asking me that I send him passport scan.
Can you show me in mtgox.com website where is saying, that he could require identify check,by sending passport scans?
When I registered in mtgox.com from me was not requested to enter my name and surname, or other contacts, only emails.

Everyone must understand that I can't send passort scans to everyone who request. I am able to send passport scans only to banks,police or other serious institution.I don't really know who he is.
Does mtgox.com have any License to manage, require passport scans? Does mtgox.com have financial services and markets License(because he offering financial services he must have one )? I would be happy to see those licenses copys.

I am asking from mtgox.com to give me contact of man from who was stolen BTC, so I could find this problem solution with him.

Do you think you can get away for only 3000 USD and get other stolen money? I think, if you can so easy and fast give up with 3000 USD, then it's really some serious situation with it. Innocent man wouldn't give up with any sum, because he can prove it's case.

P.S. As you say, MtGox have no any License of financial institution, etc, so you trusted him money as is? You had to be more cautious operating such sums and now, you have no other option, than provide scans. So, urgently find passport with your account credentials )))))))))

I agree to send those 3000 USD back because:
1. I don't need stolen funds.
2. I don't want be involved in fraud.
3. I making money from money do you know what that means? That means that until my 45 000 USD is blocked, I don't earn any profit, and I am loosing much more than those 3000 USD. In January BTC rate was about 0.30/BTC, today rate is about 1/BTC  , do you see difference? now you can easy calculate how much I lose, definatly not 3000 USD.

why I deposited "so much" to mtgox.com account?
I don't think that it's "very much" .  How you imagine trading? trading with 100 USD or 1000 USD, how much you will earn profit from such trading portfolio? 10 or 100 USD per month . Maybe it's big sum for you, maybe you live somewhere in africa , where peoples  lifes from 100 USD per month? I focus on big profit, I don't waste time with dealing with small portfolio, because it's time wasting. I better go for walk with my girlfriend.

Also I know that I am not first and not last who operate with large than 10 000 USD sums in mtgox.com.

How I trusted him? because I don't see any signals that not to trust, I browsed all google and I not found any bad word about mtgox.com or somebody has problems with him.

You making me criminal just because I have more money than you? maybe you are robin hood, like in that story where who has money that is bad guy. Yes I liked that story, but it's not real life.
mtgox.com easily can send back money(liberty reserve) from where he received, there is no problem. I will go to other marketplace to trade, but definatly not bitcoin.