mtgox.com has blocked my account with 45 000 USD in it!

Quote from: caveden on February 25, 2011, 11:47:34 AM

Quote from: BCEmporium on February 25, 2011, 10:50:16 AM

Let me tell how I would handle this, I would prevent Baron from withdrawing either BTC or LRUSD while sort things out with him. After all Baron seams to had a good load of trust on mtgox.
But, as my business is exchange, I would NEVER prevent him from trade and speculate unless I was an irresponsible child.

It would be a better thing to do, but for that to be possible, his software should be able of doing this selective blocking. I'm not sure it is.

He can, and the 1000 USD limit ensures him Baron couldn't get away that fast. As he would take at least 45 days to withdraw all his money.
It doesn't rely on "his software" but on his coding skills, taken he's not using any public software, but his own.

Quote from: ribuck on February 25, 2011, 11:59:48 AM

Quote from: caveden on February 25, 2011, 10:08:16 AM

There something weird though. According to what I read here, it took 3 days for Baron address to get fully funded.

This part is not weird at all.

MtGox has a withdrawal limit of $1000 per day.

Oh sure, I had forgotten that. Thanks. Will edit my other post.

BCEmporium: How can you say what you would do when you don't know what is really happening? If I allow him to trade and he is a scammer it is very easy to send the majority of his money to another account just by clearing out the order book and then trading with another account he makes.

And of course I have talked to the victim and am convinced his account was stolen from. I don't enjoy just blocking random people's accounts. I wouldn't do it unless there really was no other option.

Nice to listen from you mtgox.
Let's see, one thing must prevail, it's the market, it's his business and yours and it's the core of BTC.

As you said, he could create even 45 accounts roll the money and get it out. But you can add IP control, prevent TORs and proxies...

Let's see if I understand it right, now:

Someone's account has been hacked.
That person's account have 9K BTC
The scammer/robber/hacker used it to sell BTC to Baron or somehow the BTC were transfered from that wallet to Baron's BTC client
The scammed come to you and report the situation and his 9K loses.

...sorry Mt. Gox, due to the nature of BTC, I can't say your action is correct, not that I'm defending the robber on anyway, but I don't see also Baron's as that "smart or dumb scammer" who goes to deposit 45 K on a site where he just robbed an account.
The "victim" has no strong pass, was keylogged, whatever... not your business. It's something one should care about. What you did and acting as executor makes you no less scammer than whoever stole that account and, the worse on your business, unworthy of trust.

Let's say tomorrow a guy hacks another mt gox's account take 1000 BTC, sells them to me, without I know where he got that from, and after some time you block me?! Sorry... that's surreal!

With 45000 at stake my memory would not be fuzzy

I trust mt gox and Im sure whatever he is doing is for the best.

Quote from: Anonymous on February 25, 2011, 01:35:11 PM

I trust mt gox and Im sure whatever he is doing is for the best.

Rule #1 of the "non-regular economy" (as BTC is): Trust no one by default.

I don't think Baron was thinking on his 45K when he bought those coins.

Also I'm not holding his funds because I think he bought stolen BTC. I'm holding them because there is a chance he stole BTC.

Quote from: BCEmporium on February 25, 2011, 01:34:55 PM

The "victim" has no strong pass, was keylogged, whatever... not your business. It's something one should care about.

True, it's not his business, he didn't need to do anything at all, yet he had something called morals and tried to stop this thief. And your action? You call him a scammer:

Quote from: BCEmporium on February 25, 2011, 01:34:55 PM

What you did and acting as executor makes you no less scammer than whoever stole that account and, the worse on your business, unworthy of trust.

No, it doesn't make him a scammer.

Are you even aware that MtGox lost thousand of dollars to paypal scammers in the past? That's why he switched to LR that you criticize so much.

Quote from: BCEmporium on February 25, 2011, 01:34:55 PM

Let's say tomorrow a guy hacks another mt gox's account take 1000 BTC, sells them to me, without I know where he got that from, and after some time you block me?! Sorry... that's surreal!

How can you be so sure Baron bought anything? He doesn't even remember the name of the guy who sold him more than $3000 worth of coins? No logs, no nothing?

By the way, @MtGox, another thing you could do is to check how fast was this transaction performed. I mean, if the guy transferred the ~3000 coins right after having done the login into the stolen account, it'd be difficult to believe that he would had already found a buyer in a matter of seconds/minutes. And, if nothing can be found on IRC logs proving that such transaction did indeed occurred, Baron runs out of alibis. Remember somebody here has all IRC logs...

Quote from: caveden on February 25, 2011, 02:06:33 PM

Quote from: BCEmporium on February 25, 2011, 01:34:55 PM

The "victim" has no strong pass, was keylogged, whatever... not your business. It's something one should care about.

True, it's not his business, he didn't need to do anything at all, yet he had something called morals and tried to stop this thief. And your action? You call him a scammer:

There's one thing called "parallel market", which you're dealing with. I found somehow BTC to have a lot of kids and nerds totally unaware they're in a parallel market. In the parallel market there's no such thing as "refunds", either you've your eyes open or you're eaten. Sorry for the "shower of reality", kids.
You may say on your "morals" that police and courts frozen assets... true, but they've one thing mtgox doesn't have behind, it's called State. It's not the first time States have to compensate the citizens or corporations for mis-frozen assets or even mis-arrests, when mtgox has his own wallet for "that job".

Quote

Quote from: BCEmporium on February 25, 2011, 01:34:55 PM

What you did and acting as executor makes you no less scammer than whoever stole that account and, the worse on your business, unworthy of trust.

No, it doesn't make him a scammer.

Are you even aware that MtGox lost thousand of dollars to paypal scammers in the past? That's why he switched to LR that you criticize so much.

Yes, it does. Again... parallel market has some "differences". And if he love LR, why not acting like LR? Try to file a complaint you were scammed at LR and good luck; knocking your head on the wall that is.
I wasn't aware of those PayPal scams, but maybe he should kept his hands of "hot stuff" as control the money himself. Bitcoinmarket operates with PayPal without hassle by simply don't directly control the payments. It's a bitcoin market that stays on bitcoins.

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Quote from: BCEmporium on February 25, 2011, 01:34:55 PM

Let's say tomorrow a guy hacks another mt gox's account take 1000 BTC, sells them to me, without I know where he got that from, and after some time you block me?! Sorry... that's surreal!

How can you be so sure Baron bought anything? He doesn't even remember the name of the guy who sold him more than $3000 worth of coins? No logs, no nothing?

And how can you be sure he hasn't? One is always innocent until proven guilty, by common sense.

Quote from: BCEmporium on February 25, 2011, 02:23:56 PM

And how can you be sure he hasn't? One is always innocent until proven guilty, by common sense.

You keep going on and on about this. I see it as the equivalent of standing on the steps of the courthouse yelling about how one must be innocent until proven guilty as the trial is happening.

Has mtgox's statement still not satisfied you? He has reason to believe that Baron stole money from another individual's mtgox account. Would you use mtgox if you knew that there were no repercussions for someone stealing money from your account?

Quote from: BitterTea on February 25, 2011, 02:28:39 PM

Quote from: BCEmporium on February 25, 2011, 02:23:56 PM

And how can you be sure he hasn't? One is always innocent until proven guilty, by common sense.

Most of Mt Gox's uses uses LR knowing (unless they never read the TOS) that there will happen absolutely nothing if their account gets stolen, other than loose the money they had on it.
So this is no more than a poor attempt of "trials" and "courts" where neither judges, police or state exists. What you're doing to Baron is plain robbery, Robin Hood and popular justice style.
How about we pick the guy and set him on fire? Would probably solve the issue, wouldn't it?

Put your feet in the ground, man!

Quote from: BCEmporium on February 25, 2011, 02:32:41 PM

Most of Mt Gox's uses uses LR knowing (unless they never read the TOS) that there will happen absolutely nothing if they're account gets stolen, other than loose the money they had on it.
So this is no more than a poor attempt of "trials" and "courts" where neither judges, police or state exists.

Put your feet in the ground, man!

The user in question supposedly had Bitcoin stolen, not LR.

So you're saying that a business owner should not be allowed to protect his business by investigating potential thefts from users? Why don't you just stop using mtgox instead of bitching so much?

Quote from: BitterTea on February 25, 2011, 02:35:02 PM

So you're saying that a business owner should not be allowed to protect his business by investigating potential thefts from users? Why don't you just stop using mtgox instead of bitching so much?

The business owner, in such business, should give his costumers the tools to protect themselves, including information. Period!
Anything, any action, going further than that is a step too far and a slippery-slope. His PI hobby doesn't seams welcome.

I don't use MtGox's, as I said before, LR for me isn't a bank nor its "money" worth nothing.

Quote from: BCEmporium on February 25, 2011, 02:37:11 PM

Anything, any action, going further than that is a step too far and a slippery-slope. His PI hobby doesn't seams welcome.

His actions will be proven to be beneficial or detrimental to his business based on the volume of business once this situation has been resolved. If you're not a customer, I don't understand your constant outrage. It's my and everyone else's choice to do business with mtgox, not yours.

You're right, ain't my business, just my opinion... so keep going.

Quote from: BitterTea on February 25, 2011, 02:40:51 PM

His actions will be proven to be beneficial or detrimental to his business based on the volume of business once this situation has been resolved.

True, but in the meantime some guy allegedly cannot access his own $45K. It has now been 12 days that this investigation has been going on. How long is he expected to wait?

And if he is accused of stealing 9000BTC, why is $45K in USD under lockdown?

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If you're not a customer, I don't understand your constant outrage. It's my and everyone else's choice to do business with mtgox, not yours.

He's not denying your choice. Can he only express outrage if he is a customer? First go the property rights, then the free speech rights...

And, ceasing to do business with mtgox is no simple task - if you have several thousand to withdraw.

This whole matter would be a lot easier for most of us to stomach if mtgox had a simple TOS posted saying he can freeze our accounts when he is so inclined. The problem is this is happening retroactively, without notification. Sure, you can say when we hand our assets over to someone we are under the expectation that they will do what they want with them. Then I guess you could also say that if you lose control of your password you can expect to lose your assets as well. Not the kind of system most of us would want to be a part of.

Quote from: Bimmerhead on February 25, 2011, 03:33:02 PM

If you stolen 9000 BTC, than it might make sense that you might stolen 45 LRUSD. However, there is only one known accuser against Baron.

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TOS and a known procedure for dispute resolution would be nice.

Bimmerhead: I'm waiting for him. He isn't waiting for me. I've been trying to get him on the phone since this happened.

Quote from: vladimir on February 25, 2011, 03:46:19 PM

Infatuation of bitcoiners with anonymity is understandable, but it is not always a good thing, particularly, when you give someone lots of your money in course of legitimate business.

Neither a good nor a bad thing, each part has its own risks and you must choose which you're willing to take. 0% risk business = 0% profit business.
In the legal trend you've no right to anonymity and the government taxes will rip you of, thus protecting your assets.
In the parallel trend you've anonymity, to certain degree, but are mostly on your own.

Quote from: vladimir on February 25, 2011, 03:46:19 PM

Choice of jurisdiction and service address would be nice too. In UK for example, a company trading without providing customers with all the relevant details about the company, registration, registered address, physical address, VAT number (if any) is unlawful.

Infatuation of bitcoiners with anonymity is understandable, but it is not always a good thing.

Good for you.

I will never do business with a company that select a terrestrial jurisdiction for dispute resolution. That's not because I want to stay anonymous, because I am not anonymous. I am both afraid of using coercion, but I am also afraid of coercion being brought down upon me.

I am quite prepared to lose money to bad people. I am quite paranoid about the people I deal with in trade. I consider the reputation, the length of time, and so on. Even if he is founded to be trusted, I'll use escrow and other methods.

I don't use terrestrial courts, and neither should my trading partners.

If you do use one to enforce contracts, I won't do business with you.