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Author Topic: [SKY] Skycoin Launch Announcement  (Read 381238 times)
tomalbert
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July 30, 2014, 02:17:18 PM
 #1181

I am starting following this. let see how it will develop.
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July 31, 2014, 06:49:57 AM
 #1182

waiting for this.
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July 31, 2014, 10:09:03 PM
 #1183

It is interesting, there are more substance and material in one development update from the Skycoin dev than combined in the top 20 coins on Bittrex. Similarly, the white paper on the gihub repo is a really innovative piece, I think it is in the league what we can see in the white paper of Ethereum's Vitalik Buterin and the yellow paper of Gavin Wood. I can't wait to see the actual implementation of Skycoin.
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August 01, 2014, 03:42:30 AM
 #1184

+1

It's because this project is about building a new future and not just about lining the pockets of wash traders.
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August 01, 2014, 12:40:52 PM
 #1185

Development Update:

IPO Website:
 This is a very small distribution and not intended to distribute huge number of coins.
Sounds like a nice project.

How much of the coins (skycoins) will be distributed via this IPO?
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August 02, 2014, 01:36:44 AM
 #1186

Great news! I will be supporting the project when the IPO goes live and looking forward to its release!
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August 02, 2014, 01:55:54 AM
 #1187

I'll just keep watching until IPO comes up and see how good it is.

I've been watching for months already, I can be patient for a good project.
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August 02, 2014, 06:06:02 PM
 #1188

Anything we can do to help you with the launch?

Yes, we will like to help on launch and success the coin.
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August 05, 2014, 01:53:36 PM
 #1189

Any updates about the IPO date?

..bustadice..         ▄▄████████████▄▄
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......Play......
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August 06, 2014, 10:12:48 PM
 #1190

Interesting coin. Following.
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August 07, 2014, 08:35:19 AM
 #1191

I don't think there's a need to wait till the Ethereum IPO is over. This will be a small IPO, unlike Ethereum's which is completely ridiculous.

Anyway, great to see the project moving forward. I'll continue watching this closely.

We are about to go singularity.We have a road map to where we want to be in the long term. We split it up into small projects and libraries, then are able to delegate them. A very concrete infrastructure we can move rapidly on, is coming together.

Architecture is slow unfortunately. It is only something that becomes good through experience.
Yes,just accord to your designed road map to happen.
Things planed than bad hurry works.
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August 07, 2014, 01:56:41 PM
 #1192

Very good news about the beginning of IPO. This means there are concrete progress in the development of the coin. I will wait for the IPO.
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August 07, 2014, 02:36:22 PM
 #1193

Can someone please dumb this down and explain the innovative features like I'm a 5 year old?

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August 08, 2014, 04:52:21 AM
 #1194

Can someone please dumb this down and explain the innovative features like I'm a 5 year old?



the old american way Cheesy

IOTA
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August 09, 2014, 07:20:24 AM
 #1195

I'm still trying to get caught up on all the new stuff (I haven't made it through all the white papers yet), so just direct me to the right part of them if these points are addressed there.


There has been a big emphasis in your posts here on getting community involved in the writing and documentation over the last couple months. I see no wiki. Is there any action on this front? Are you waiting until you can build one Aether before starting this effort? I assumed the Whitepapers up on githhub were an attempt at this, but I don't see any calls for editors, and my pull request for some edits as just sat there for ~1 week now. I figured I might as well contribute edits as I read the docs, but if you aren't ready for that I'll read+edit them later. I'd be happy to setup a wiki if you want one and give you admin rights on it. I can't offer much of my time to moderate or administrate it though.


Proof of stake elections and 51% attacks: If you want to resist 51% attacks, is it really a good idea to give a party with a majority of the coins the power to do what ever they want with the source code? Would your mentioned plan of putting the source in the blockchain be used to push out auto-installed patches? (Developer elections -> put horrible malware in code -> store source in blockchain -> everyone update to malware). Any automation of patches is asking for someone to send out a steal all the private keys patch, but it could be a bot net patch aswell.... With deterministic wallets, you are pretty screwed if something like that slips in (most users will just have one key you need to steal, and then legit and attacker transactions are indistinguishable).

From a security perspective, it is your view that having exactly 1 implementation of skycoin is the best option, correct? (Just a clarifying your view here)

Given that you are looking at running downloaded code securely (at least I think thats what your application stuff is for), have you looked at http://genode.org/? They do nice things like per processes virtual file systems, have a secure microkernel etc. Run it as an is or vm/application on your host OS, and run your services inside it and you get robust isolation of native code. They have some done some nice work making their ports identified by a hash of their inputs lately (http://nixos.org/ style): it seems like a platform that might interest you.

The meshnet is intended to be a nice privacy tool with benefits comparable to tor, but lower latency correct?

The meshnet is intended to allow funding nodes via micropayments in skycoin to cover bandwidth costs correct? Doesn't this leave force all node operators to record detailed and published logs (on their personal block chains) describing all the transactions which inherently correspond to everyone who send data through their node? This seems like it would allow any third party to do traffic correlation attacks much like the ones on tor, except you don't need access to the connections. Even if they don't end up being publicly inspectable, logging everything seems like it might have some real issues (it can be requested by law enforcement, and takes up a lot of space)

The initial version is going to ship with centralized route finding server correct? This means if you want to connect to someone, you have to tell a third party about it, correct? It seems like this is not a Tor like privacy service until that's fixed. Is there reason to believe you will find a solution to this soon (or ever: its hard)?

How do you find a route to this trusted third party which will do route finding for you? I assume you will just special case it (don't use sender side route selection), but I'm curious if you have another design.

Most of the time I check out the master branch it is horribly broken. With the impending IPO, are you going to have stable release branches, which will generally work and have few (easy to review) changes? I have no interest in blindly running binary someone ships, or being stuck with some random old revision that happens to be known good and miss any fixes.

Can you guys please provide better commit messages? Looking at https://github.com/skycoin/skycoin/commits/master shows lots of commits with the same message just referring simple to something that I don't know what it is, some project area, of even just "changes", or "test". The last 3 were better: please continue that trend.

I expect a lot of nodes (say my phone) will want to simply ask a bunch of random nodes for the network state (block chain, and consensus status). It doesn't seem like there is an incentive for nodes to spend the bandwidth to inform anyone who asks of their consensus state, upload blocks etc. Are you just assuming enough people will bother to run nodes that provide these services that things will work? (It seems like a reasonable assumption, bitcoin nodes do exactly this, I just wanted to check). I suppose such requests could come prepaid for return bandwidth, though that just makes nasty lazy nodes that don't respond make money...


Is this the right place to post such questions? Should I just pose such things here, or is there a place not buried on 60+pages of overlapping discussions for addressing such topics? For stuff thats more issue like than question like I can post issues to github, but my issue there hasn't been responded to: https://github.com/skycoin/whitepapers/issues. Should I post such issues here as well?

Are you using cryptographic accumulators at all? I have to wonder if there is some neat cryptographic accumulator trick that could accumulate signatures.

To check that a given claim some node made in the past (some signed block from their personal block chain) is in the block chain they are currently publishing, you need to ask for the current node then get (at least the headers) of all the nodes back to the node you are interested in so you can check the hashes, correct? It seems you may have thought of this, but in-case you haven't, you know you could put the hash of the node 100 nodes back, and one 10000 nodes back etc. in each node (or just every 100th and 10000th etc respectively) and effectively get a skip list for fast checks. It seems like minimizing the cost of checking this kind of thing will be pretty important as part of making random audits of nodes cheap and easy.

Anyway, so far the consensus process using the personal block chains seems like a pretty robust/secure design. I'm looking forward to reading further into the whitepapers to see the details: getting it to be efficient storage, bandwidth and computation wise seems like an interesting challenge.
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August 09, 2014, 11:16:06 AM
 #1196

Excellent, this team and coin is getting better and better.
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August 09, 2014, 10:25:22 PM
Last edit: August 09, 2014, 10:37:05 PM by skycoin
 #1197

I'm still trying to get caught up on all the new stuff (I haven't made it through all the white papers yet), so just direct me to the right part of them if these points are addressed there.


There has been a big emphasis in your posts here on getting community involved in the writing and documentation over the last couple months. I see no wiki. Is there any action on this front? Are you waiting until you can build one Aether before starting this effort? I assumed the Whitepapers up on githhub were an attempt at this, but I don't see any calls for editors, and my pull request for some edits as just sat there for ~1 week now. I figured I might as well contribute edits as I read the docs, but if you aren't ready for that I'll read+edit them later. I'd be happy to setup a wiki if you want one and give you admin rights on it. I can't offer much of my time to moderate or administrate it though.


Proof of stake elections and 51% attacks: If you want to resist 51% attacks, is it really a good idea to give a party with a majority of the coins the power to do what ever they want with the source code? Would your mentioned plan of putting the source in the blockchain be used to push out auto-installed patches? (Developer elections -> put horrible malware in code -> store source in blockchain -> everyone update to malware). Any automation of patches is asking for someone to send out a steal all the private keys patch, but it could be a bot net patch aswell.... With deterministic wallets, you are pretty screwed if something like that slips in (most users will just have one key you need to steal, and then legit and attacker transactions are indistinguishable).

From a security perspective, it is your view that having exactly 1 implementation of skycoin is the best option, correct? (Just a clarifying your view here)

Given that you are looking at running downloaded code securely (at least I think thats what your application stuff is for), have you looked at http://genode.org/? They do nice things like per processes virtual file systems, have a secure microkernel etc. Run it as an is or vm/application on your host OS, and run your services inside it and you get robust isolation of native code. They have some done some nice work making their ports identified by a hash of their inputs lately (http://nixos.org/ style): it seems like a platform that might interest you.

The meshnet is intended to be a nice privacy tool with benefits comparable to tor, but lower latency correct?

The meshnet is intended to allow funding nodes via micropayments in skycoin to cover bandwidth costs correct? Doesn't this leave force all node operators to record detailed and published logs (on their personal block chains) describing all the transactions which inherently correspond to everyone who send data through their node? This seems like it would allow any third party to do traffic correlation attacks much like the ones on tor, except you don't need access to the connections. Even if they don't end up being publicly inspectable, logging everything seems like it might have some real issues (it can be requested by law enforcement, and takes up a lot of space)

The initial version is going to ship with centralized route finding server correct? This means if you want to connect to someone, you have to tell a third party about it, correct? It seems like this is not a Tor like privacy service until that's fixed. Is there reason to believe you will find a solution to this soon (or ever: its hard)?

How do you find a route to this trusted third party which will do route finding for you? I assume you will just special case it (don't use sender side route selection), but I'm curious if you have another design.

Most of the time I check out the master branch it is horribly broken. With the impending IPO, are you going to have stable release branches, which will generally work and have few (easy to review) changes? I have no interest in blindly running binary someone ships, or being stuck with some random old revision that happens to be known good and miss any fixes.

Can you guys please provide better commit messages? Looking at https://github.com/skycoin/skycoin/commits/master shows lots of commits with the same message just referring simple to something that I don't know what it is, some project area, of even just "changes", or "test". The last 3 were better: please continue that trend.

I expect a lot of nodes (say my phone) will want to simply ask a bunch of random nodes for the network state (block chain, and consensus status). It doesn't seem like there is an incentive for nodes to spend the bandwidth to inform anyone who asks of their consensus state, upload blocks etc. Are you just assuming enough people will bother to run nodes that provide these services that things will work? (It seems like a reasonable assumption, bitcoin nodes do exactly this, I just wanted to check). I suppose such requests could come prepaid for return bandwidth, though that just makes nasty lazy nodes that don't respond make money...


Is this the right place to post such questions? Should I just pose such things here, or is there a place not buried on 60+pages of overlapping discussions for addressing such topics? For stuff thats more issue like than question like I can post issues to github, but my issue there hasn't been responded to: https://github.com/skycoin/whitepapers/issues. Should I post such issues here as well?

Are you using cryptographic accumulators at all? I have to wonder if there is some neat cryptographic accumulator trick that could accumulate signatures.

To check that a given claim some node made in the past (some signed block from their personal block chain) is in the block chain they are currently publishing, you need to ask for the current node then get (at least the headers) of all the nodes back to the node you are interested in so you can check the hashes, correct? It seems you may have thought of this, but in-case you haven't, you know you could put the hash of the node 100 nodes back, and one 10000 nodes back etc. in each node (or just every 100th and 10000th etc respectively) and effectively get a skip list for fast checks. It seems like minimizing the cost of checking this kind of thing will be pretty important as part of making random audits of nodes cheap and easy.

Anyway, so far the consensus process using the personal block chains seems like a pretty robust/secure design. I'm looking forward to reading further into the whitepapers to see the details: getting it to be efficient storage, bandwidth and computation wise seems like an interesting challenge.

Yes. Please figure out some way we can streamline communication.

The original plan was to put it on Aether, however it will be months before that is working. The networking refactor was a major headache, was a massive amount of work and ended up going nowhere, but took four months. The upside is that we have a very clear architecture now.

The current plan, is that the IPO prospectus is being written. It is about 200 pages. It lays out each component in the Skycoin project, in the details required for implementation. Then coin bounties will be assigned for implementation.

Then we will focus on the meshnet/darknet implementation, put bounties on what we can and focus on the consensus mechanism implementation once the libraries we need are ready.

Skycoin is written as a series of libraries. The libraries are general and reusable. There libraries for networking/rpc, for parsing a blockchain, for replicating blocks between peers, for cryptography and so on. The problem is that writing good libraries requires significantly more design effort than writing blobs of code that merely work.

The community has to take over as much as it can and operate independently of the developers. Maybe we can use a ticket system for bounties?

We can quickly get the software working for transport and encryption working, but the meshnet development has to be on a ticket/bounty system to get all the components in place. We are scoping out the meshnet requires right now and writing up documentation/guidance.

Then there are other organizational issues. We have coordinate with the meshnet hardware groups, do testing, share results, hardware selection, ordering and coordinate local community meshes to get long distance backhaul connections setup. We need software for mapping the meshnet nodes, for reporting connection statistics and allowing node operators to optimize their deployment topologies.

For instance, we need someone to construct a platform that rotates in x/y plane and has controllable tilt. We need to put an antenna on the platform fed with standardized power level and need to put a hackrf 20 ft away and need to measure transmitted power density at the receiver, as a function of angle for different antenna configurations. This data will tell us minimum power we need to transmit with for line of sight to reach a given bandwidth over a given distance with a given noise floor for the receiver.

We need a way of locating Skywire nodes in physical space. We need a cheap active phased array element circuit for inducing phase shifts in a 2.4 Ghz signal. A system might use a GPS and two antennas and measure signal strength from a Skywire node using a HackRF as a function of the induced phase shift between the antennas. That would give us a direction. Multiple readings from multiple positions would give us a spatial position for node. Then people have to put these on their cars and collect data as they are driving around.

Data like this, would probably be uploaded to an aether store as its collected and then aggregated by other applications which expose it over APIs over which other applications can be built for visualization.

We need terrain topological maps. We need to be able to determine which mesh sites a person has line of sight to if they are in third floor on the south side of a building in a particular location. We have to identify collocation sites that are neural and can provide backhaul, so we are not reliant upon comcast and have to establish long distance links spanning out from those sites.

We need nodes to automatically report bandwidth and connectivity statistics (probably into an Aether store). We need reporting for fine grained performance statistics on noise floor, signal strength, connection reliability, throughput and latency. Then we have to aggregate and expose this data on an API for applications.

The earliest network will just be nodes peered over internet. Then a physical mesh will be built out with fixed, point to point directional antennas using commodity 802.11 wifi. Then we move into specializations of commodity 802.11 hardware and eventually a full Software Defined Radio (SDR) network.

The ideal network is going to be point-to-point with directional "pencil beams". By using multiple antennas and inducing a phase shift between the signals through each antenna, we can do active signal rejection so we are only receiving signals coming from a particular direction. Active signal rejection also enables us to triangulate node positions in physical space. We can also transmit highly directional beams that focus most of the beam power on the receiver instead of irradiating it into space.

An ideal hardware configuration, would be something like a 16x16 cm flat sheet with a 4x4 antenna array that someone can just hang out their window, place in window or put on a roof.

A six antenna 2.4 Ghz phased array setup may be as simple as a few variable capacitors a transistor and a $4 arduino or it may be significantly more complicated. Hardware manufactures are reluctant to produce chipsets for the 802.11af whitespace that just opened up because of the FCC requirements. Chinese companies have released extremely powerful $15 to $35 USB Software Defined Radio (SDR) devices that are the size of a USB stick, but which can only receive. We may need custom ASICs or to partner with company building the devices.

We are also trying to standardize on UniPro bus standard for our hardware and we need an open source UniPro bus IP core. UniPro will be able to handle everything except the communication between the ADC and FPGA block.

Then there are questions about whether we should do the Quadrature Amplitude Modulation in the Analog to Digital Converter (ADC) block or whether we should just capture the signal and handle it in the FPGA block. Then there are cost questions, such as whether we can get by with an 8-bit resolution on the ADC.

Ideally we want something going up to 900 Mhz with at least 20 MHz bandwidth around the base band and at least four antenna ports, with ability to modulate phase shifts on the antennas ports and it should be single chip, then we would feed that into an FPGA. Even with an open source design, it will cost at least $120,000 to get something like this at minimum order volumes.

So the meshnet has multiple components. Meshnet will have many more teams than the coin/software side and the requirements are much more specialized. The hardware component of the meshnet effort is going to be an absolute decentralized mess, but will workout. People will have to form their own teams and manage them. The only thing we can offer is funding and guidance.

The objective is to get the price down as low as possible, so we want multiple providers, open source hardware. We do not want to be a position like the Trezor, where you have a piece of hardware that everyone needs and its $700 when it should be $5. We are talking to several hardware vendors and offering coin subsidies to offset the large cost of minimum hardware quantities.

The software, we are confident we are on track for meeting requirements for the coin. Even if it is taking significantly longer than intended. The meshnet to be more than a toy however is going to require massive organization on the ground at community level.

== Project Org ===

We have no idea how this is going to be organized. I think
- write up project spec in detail for each component, at level required for implementation
- launch coin
- assign bounties on sub-projects. setup ticketing system for managing sub-projects
- Get aether working as a wiki and for publishing webpages
- Get aether working as discussion board
- Get messaging users by public key working, so we can have email/bitmessage type system
- Move project management in Aether/Darknet


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August 09, 2014, 11:09:11 PM
 #1198


Can you guys please provide better commit messages? Looking at https://github.com/skycoin/skycoin/commits/master shows lots of commits with the same message just referring simple to something that I don't know what it is, some project area, of even just "changes", or "test". The last 3 were better: please continue that trend.


Most of the developers are not working out of that repo. There are three repos. Each one is using a different version of the wire protocol and we have been trying to merge them into a single repo for four months.

The problem is that it is very difficult to move the blockchain download process into an isolated service. We tried to do it as one large refactor and it failed. After writing more code and abstracting the networking library, we finally figured out how to do the refactor as a series of small changes that individually did not break anything.

Daemon and visor are currently a tangled bundle of code and lack elegance. We want to split them off into
- library for handling/storing blocks (blockdb)
- library for downloading the blockchain, given the blockchain public key hash (a service; dependency on blockdb and skywire)
- a service for exposing the JSON RPC the local web wallet is built on
- the actual blockchain state manager (the visor)

The service is being moved into RPC. The dependency of Daemon on Visor is being severed. The visor itself exposes networking over a service on the Daemon. The networking is being changed to an RPC interface to simplify using the wire protocol. The JSON RPC is being moved out of Daemon into Visor. The block database is being abstracted into a library that  Visor pulls in.

Once that is is in place, we can launch. Its a small series of changes.

Then everything is in place for "ghetto consensus" which is a simplified form of the consensus algorithm which is easy to implement (and better than Ripple) but which is just a place holder. Ghetto consensus is being replaced with a version built on top of the Merkle-DAG system, once the library is implemented, then incremental changes made until it achieves the security properties against the known attack scenarios.

After "ghetto consensus" is working, focus will shift to distributed applications and meshnet for a while.

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August 09, 2014, 11:37:03 PM
Last edit: August 09, 2014, 11:57:13 PM by skycoin
 #1199


The meshnet is intended to be a nice privacy tool with benefits comparable to tor, but lower latency correct?

The meshnet is intended to allow funding nodes via micropayments in skycoin to cover bandwidth costs correct? Doesn't this leave force all node operators to record detailed and published logs (on their personal block chains) describing all the transactions which inherently correspond to everyone who send data through their node? This seems like it would allow any third party to do traffic correlation attacks much like the ones on tor, except you don't need access to the connections. Even if they don't end up being publicly inspectable, logging everything seems like it might have some real issues (it can be requested by law enforcement, and takes up a lot of space)

The initial version is going to ship with centralized route finding server correct? This means if you want to connect to someone, you have to tell a third party about it, correct? It seems like this is not a Tor like privacy service until that's fixed. Is there reason to believe you will find a solution to this soon (or ever: its hard)?

How do you find a route to this trusted third party which will do route finding for you? I assume you will just special case it (don't use sender side route selection), but I'm curious if you have another design.


Yes. It is actually faster than TCP/IP. ISPs do "hot potato" routing. The latency should not be worse than TCP/IP and in theory can be faster.

The privacy guarantees are
- each node only knows the previous and next hop
- transmission between nodes is encrypted
- transmission is encrypted end-to-end
- your transmission is protected against man-in-middle attacks through the use of public keys for node endpoints (network addresses are public keys on the network)
- all encryption is deniable and ephemeral
- the protocol is designed to frustrate attempts at deep packet inspection to identify users running the protocol (no fixed ports, no known plaintext in wire format, fixed node connectivity for backbone and so on)

So it is like a very low latency TOR with micropayments for bandwidth.

- It is more secure and has higher privacy than HTTPS
- it is faster than TOR and scales but there are still attacks against it.
- the code is much simpler than TOR, so there is less room for backdoors or hidden vulnerabilities. There is only one external dependency in the whole implementation.
- If you need absolute security against timing channel attacks, you should use a mixing service or run Bitmessage on top of the darknet
- all low latency networks are subject to timing channel attacks


Route Servers :

Yes route servers are a weak link. For maximum privacy you should run your own internal route server.

However, if you do use a public route server, you are connected to it through several hops, so it cannot identify you. It would still be safer to run your own.

Handling of Micropayments for Bandwidth

The way micropayments are handled, is through a third party. The node connects to a "gateway", deposits a coin with the gateway to get a credit. The node can now generate pseudonymous 64 bit "addresses" with the gateway. The gateway does not know the identity of the connecting node. It only knows the previous hop the connection came through.

So if you establish twelve connections to the gateway, they look like twelve different users to the gateway. Eventually communication to the gateway will be over an asynchronous messaging channel.

The node forwarding the bandwidth, connects to the gateway also. The two nodes can now pay each other through the gateway, without the gateway knowing the identity of either of the two nodes. When a node has enough coins in credit (a full coin), it can generate a new Skycoin address and withdrawal the coin to that address. Gateways are only handling small amounts of coins

A gateway in the Skycoin protocol is any server that holds coins or account balances on behalf of 3rd parties. Gateways are deposit institutions and they have their own protocol and API.

Eventually,
- there will be multiple gateways and cross gateway coin transfers. These transactions occur in private and do not appear on the blockchain until you withdraw the coins from the gateway.
- messaging with gateway will occur through an asynchronous communication channel (each message steam will get a new pseudonymous identity)
- part of the gateway protocol is an OT implementation, which allows you to prove if a particular gateway is stealing coins. You sign each API call to the gateway, then gateway executes and signs the output. So there is a chain of linked signatures and transactions and the gateway cannot make coins disappear without being able to forge your signature. If you deposit coins somewhere and they disappear, you can publish your transaction log and then the owner of the accused node has to produce a log showing that you authorized the coins to go somewhere. If they cannot produce a signed API call, then it proves they are lying/dishonest.
- Eventually exchanges will operate under the gateway protocol

Your suggestion of having a public blockchain for the internal balances in the gateway is interesting. I think putting the internal transactions on a public personal block chain, could keep exchanges honest while still maintaining user privacy.

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August 09, 2014, 11:45:35 PM
 #1200

Wow hugh steps in the last months, but one question is open, what is your real intension for the next years?, wich position will reach and wihich products will you deliver after skycoin is realeased, have you thougt without the technical aspects  where you want to go? Have you thought about the steps after realease? The market now is much harder than month ago, you need a marketing Team and a good roadmap with your goals. You should not think only about the technical way, what i would like to say is,  even the best product with the best genius Development can fail if they are not prepared against pychological market movements (market members) .

You can see it all the way long on the NY Stockmarket, even smaler Companys with better Products as there compitioners can fail if they dont reach the consument. So please be prepared for the next steps.  thx.  I hope you ve a great succes.

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