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Author Topic: [SKY] Skycoin Launch Announcement  (Read 381231 times)
bubblymint38
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January 30, 2015, 02:12:09 AM
 #1561

If anyone is not happy then just pack up and go Smiley
simple and easy
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January 30, 2015, 02:34:36 AM
 #1562

If anyone is not happy then just pack up and go Smiley
simple and easy

The thing is, this isn't a project that one can simply just not pay attention to, in my opinion.

I'll be reading and watching.  This might be a crypto I care not about financial gains more than I care about what happens.

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skycoin
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January 30, 2015, 11:08:19 AM
Last edit: July 05, 2017, 05:58:04 AM by skycoin
 #1563

Mildly interesting that the dev here seems to be top notch but the IPO parameters seem pretty crazy.  I really want to see the meshnet situation though.

This is my perspective.

Stellar has a 16 million dollar market cap. They have released 2.6% of the coins.

There is little risk a coin goes below the IPO price. There is a risk of a bubble. We dont want people buying in and then losing money because the price fell. There are whales who can buy in, set a high price, grab more money than they put in from new investors (hype) and then pull out, sending price crashing. The reason the altcoins are so volatile is there are people slamming 1500 Bitcoin buy/sell orders for fun.

If the height is 10x IPO, it will not be too bad. There were people who bought Bitcoin at $30 and were upset that it fell to $2. If you held long enough, you made money at any price you entered. For the first two or three years, Bitcoin was not even at a penny. I still remember it breaking a dollar. "Bitcoin worth more than USD" was big news.

If you were in the first 0.1% or the first 1% of Bitcoin users, you did well. You are up a million x. If you are in the first 1% and it succeeds, you will be fine. Even the first 10% and the first 30%. Everyone here now is extremely early.

If the price goes to 100 million, we might give out 200k to 600k in coins across a few test cities as subsidies for hardware, to test software on and figure out what problems deployments have.



We are only doing 200k. This less than individual investors have tried to give us. For first year budget, we are unable to spend more than 2 million. There are three very highly focused milestone we are working towards. We dont want to hire everyone and try to do everything at once, just because we have the money to, if it means losing focus on the core priorities (consensus implementation, skywire). After those two things are done, then we can support more groups working on independent projects. However, we do need more developers and help from community.

We have some very good developers who could not work full time on skycoin until after the IPO because they didnt buy Bitcoin early enough.

When you watch people moving million dollars into and out of Bitcoin in minutes, you realize that this project is very small. Another issue, is that money or having a large market cap does not help the project achieve its goals very much. Bitcointalks probably has at least ten million dollars in Bitcoin from early donations, but that money has not made the forum better than it was four years ago.

Money can be corrupting too. When Bitcoin hit $100, everyone was obsessed with buying condos and partying. They lost sight of what Bitcoin was suppose to achieve and how much work was left. The coin price is a result, but it its not the goal, its just a side effect.

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January 30, 2015, 12:23:49 PM
 #1564

Hmm okay, it seems this answered to some of my questions. Thanks.

Can you tell us how many % on average you think to sell every years ? I think you have a small idea, no ?  Smiley

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January 30, 2015, 12:59:40 PM
 #1565

Mildly interesting that the dev here seems to be top notch but the IPO parameters seem pretty crazy.  I really want to see the meshnet situation though.

How about

Ethereum style IPO: NO VALUATION. GIVE US ALL YOUR COINS

This is my perspective.

Stellar has a 16 million dollar market cap. They have released 2.6% of the coins.

There is little risk a coin goes below the IPO price. We can always buy coins back and put in a price floor. There is a risk of a bubble. We dont want people buying in and then losing money because the price fell. There are whales who can buy in, set a high price, grab more money than they put in from new investors (hype) and then pull out, sending price crashing. The reason the altcoins are so volatile is there are people slamming 1500 Bitcoin buy/sell orders for fun.

If the height is 10x IPO, it will not be too bad. There were people who bought Bitcoin at $30 and were upset that it fell to $2. If you held long enough, you made money at any price you entered. For the first two or three years, Bitcoin was not even at a penny. I still remember it breaking a dollar. "Bitcoin worth more than USD" was big news.

If you were in the first 0.1% or the first 1% of Bitcoin users, you did well. You are up a million x. If you are in the first 1% and it succeeds, you will be fine. Even the first 10% and the first 30%. Everyone here now is extremely early.

We will sell off coins constantly over time, to put some downward pressure on the price and keep it reasonable. A good strategy is just buy a constant amount per day or week, acquire position over time. Do not try to time price too much. No matter what form the IPO takes, it will be inherently unfair.

If the price goes to 100 million, we might give out 200k to 600k in coins across a few test cities as subsidies for hardware, to test software on and figure out what problems deployments have.



We are only doing 200k. This less than individual investors have tried to give us. For first year budget, we are unable to spend more than 2 million. There are three very highly focused milestone we are working towards. We dont want to hire everyone and try to do everything at once, just because we have the money to, if it means losing focus on the core priorities (consensus implementation, skywire). After those two things are done, then we can support more groups working on independent projects. However, we do need more developers and help from community.

We have some very good developers who could not work full time on skycoin until after the IPO because they didnt buy Bitcoin early enough.

When you watch people moving million dollars into and out of Bitcoin in minutes, you realize that this project is very small. Another issue, is that money or having a large market cap does not help the project achieve its goals very much. Bitcointalks probably has at least ten million dollars in Bitcoin from early donations, but that money has not made the forum better than it was four years ago.

Money can be corrupting too. When Bitcoin hit $100, everyone was obsessed with buying condos and partying. They lost sight of what Bitcoin was suppose to achieve and how much work was left. The coin price is a result, but it its not the goal, its just a side effect.

I think it's ok:NO VALUATION. GIVE US ALL YOUR COINS.  The price of each skycoin is: total BTCs invested/100million skycoins.
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January 30, 2015, 01:49:43 PM
 #1566

Mildly interesting that the dev here seems to be top notch but the IPO parameters seem pretty crazy.  I really want to see the meshnet situation though.

How about

Ethereum style IPO: NO VALUATION. GIVE US ALL YOUR COINS

This is my perspective.

Stellar has a 16 million dollar market cap. They have released 2.6% of the coins.

There is little risk a coin goes below the IPO price. We can always buy coins back and put in a price floor. There is a risk of a bubble. We dont want people buying in and then losing money because the price fell. There are whales who can buy in, set a high price, grab more money than they put in from new investors (hype) and then pull out, sending price crashing. The reason the altcoins are so volatile is there are people slamming 1500 Bitcoin buy/sell orders for fun.

If the height is 10x IPO, it will not be too bad. There were people who bought Bitcoin at $30 and were upset that it fell to $2. If you held long enough, you made money at any price you entered. For the first two or three years, Bitcoin was not even at a penny. I still remember it breaking a dollar. "Bitcoin worth more than USD" was big news.

If you were in the first 0.1% or the first 1% of Bitcoin users, you did well. You are up a million x. If you are in the first 1% and it succeeds, you will be fine. Even the first 10% and the first 30%. Everyone here now is extremely early.

We will sell off coins constantly over time, to put some downward pressure on the price and keep it reasonable. A good strategy is just buy a constant amount per day or week, acquire position over time. Do not try to time price too much. No matter what form the IPO takes, it will be inherently unfair.

If the price goes to 100 million, we might give out 200k to 600k in coins across a few test cities as subsidies for hardware, to test software on and figure out what problems deployments have.



We are only doing 200k. This less than individual investors have tried to give us. For first year budget, we are unable to spend more than 2 million. There are three very highly focused milestone we are working towards. We dont want to hire everyone and try to do everything at once, just because we have the money to, if it means losing focus on the core priorities (consensus implementation, skywire). After those two things are done, then we can support more groups working on independent projects. However, we do need more developers and help from community.

We have some very good developers who could not work full time on skycoin until after the IPO because they didnt buy Bitcoin early enough.

When you watch people moving million dollars into and out of Bitcoin in minutes, you realize that this project is very small. Another issue, is that money or having a large market cap does not help the project achieve its goals very much. Bitcointalks probably has at least ten million dollars in Bitcoin from early donations, but that money has not made the forum better than it was four years ago.

Money can be corrupting too. When Bitcoin hit $100, everyone was obsessed with buying condos and partying. They lost sight of what Bitcoin was suppose to achieve and how much work was left. The coin price is a result, but it its not the goal, its just a side effect.

I think it's ok:NO VALUATION. GIVE US ALL YOUR COINS.  The price of each skycoin is: total BTCs invested/100million skycoins.

+1


I would prefer too...

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January 30, 2015, 02:06:40 PM
Last edit: January 30, 2015, 02:22:42 PM by Wit22
 #1567

I tried to install the skycoin client.
I got stuck though.

instructions for windows were to use a "MingW shell"
I tried to install mingW but it while installing it, I got an error:
"mingw-get: *** INFO *** setup: unpacking mingw-get-setup-0.6.2-mingw32-beta-20131004-1-dll.tar.xz
mingw-get: *** ERROR *** unpack: required archive file is not available
mingw-get: *** ERROR *** unpack: aborted due to previous download failure
mingw-get: *** INFO *** setup: unpacking mingw-get-setup-0.6.2-mingw32-beta-20131004-1-xml.tar.xz
mingw-get: *** ERROR *** setup: unable to continue"

Any ideas?

Will there be more compatible way to do this with windows? Or should I install a ubuntu os just for this IPO? When is the IPO as well?


EDIT: FIXED. It was my anti-virus
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January 30, 2015, 02:50:57 PM
 #1568

Trying to install on ubuntu.
My .skycoin folder is empty.
Performing ./run.sh -h gives me this:

Quote
2015/01/30 15:45:08 Wallet Directory= /home/myusername/.skycoin/wallets
2015/01/30 15:45:08 Failed to load all wallets: open /home/myusername/.skycoin/wallets: no such file or directory
panic: Failed to load all wallets: open /home/myusername/.skycoin/wallets: no such file or directory

goroutine 1 [running]: ....
....
exit status 2

Running ./run.sh -web-interface=true  gives me the same.
If i manually create the wallets folder inside the .skycoin folder, something is happening.
It creates a new genesis block as no blockchain is inside the .skycoin folder, and gives me
http://127.0.0.1:5798/ as debugging address and blacklists all the peers.

Suggestions?

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January 30, 2015, 03:24:14 PM
 #1569

So I read the wp and I have 2 questions that I hope you can and will answer:

How will you ensure that a followee sends the same opinion to all it's followers ? The wp states that this is a property of the PBC but I can't seem to find an explanation of how that is achieved.

Also (this may be in the math which i didn't really look at much) the wp doesn't seem to say how consensus is actually reached. It only says that a node will form his opinion based on this own opinion and the opinions he get's from his followees but how exactly does that work ? What happens if a node receives different opinions ? Will it decide for the majority ? Is his own opinion more important the others' ?



Quoting cuz I'm really interested Smiley

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January 30, 2015, 09:03:55 PM
 #1570

Is there an ETA for the IPO?
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January 31, 2015, 01:26:54 AM
 #1571

I hope the 98% is a joke
Cryptoworld will cried scam for sure!
Give to a single person the control of 98% of the coins plus to a unknown guy

Lisk.
    Develop Decentralized Applications & Sidechains in JavaScript with Lisk!
    Website | Blog | BTT Thread | Chat - Be part of the decentralized application movement!
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January 31, 2015, 03:42:46 AM
 #1572

IPO

None of the developers want to deal with issues for windows builds. 2000 coin bounty.

Someone with linux, read this, then document steps to cross compile on debian for windows with mingw, for 32 and 64 bit
- http://www.limitlessfx.com/cross-compile-golang-app-for-windows-from-linux.html

Then put command line steps here.
https://github.com/skycoin/skycoin/issues/24

Otherwise, we will start IPO without windows builds.  Roll Eyes

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January 31, 2015, 04:35:10 AM
 #1573

Stuck again with windows installation.

I installed mingw.
Ran the mingw shell.

Managed to clone skycoin's github completely.

When I ran ./setup.sh

It got stuck with gvm and go1.4

"$ ./setup.sh
Installing gvm and go1.4
./install-gvm.sh: cannot make pipe for process substitution: Function not implem
ented
./install-gvm.sh: cannot make pipe for process substitution: Function not implem
ented
./install-gvm.sh: line 4: <(curl -s -S -L https://raw.githubusercontent.com/moov
web/gvm/master/binscripts/gvm-installer): ambiguous redirect
grep: /home/WitTheSecond/.bashrc: No such file or directory
./install-gvm.sh: line 15: /home/WitTheSecond/.gvm/scripts/gvm: No such file or
directory
./install-gvm.sh: line 18: gvm: command not found
./install-gvm.sh: line 24: gvm: command not found
Installing skycoin to $GOPATH
GOPATH is not set
Installing or updating skycoin dependencies
xargs: go: No such file or directory
Done
Do './run.sh -h' to confirm it is installed. This runs the daemon.
README.md has further instructions for building and running the gui.
"

I have a ubuntu live USB and a fresh drive. Would it be alot easier to use that?Huh
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January 31, 2015, 07:12:16 AM
 #1574

Stuck again with windows installation.

I installed mingw.
Ran the mingw shell.

Managed to clone skycoin's github completely.

When I ran ./setup.sh

It got stuck with gvm and go1.4

"$ ./setup.sh
Installing gvm and go1.4
./install-gvm.sh: cannot make pipe for process substitution: Function not implem
ented
./install-gvm.sh: cannot make pipe for process substitution: Function not implem
ented
./install-gvm.sh: line 4: <(curl -s -S -L https://raw.githubusercontent.com/moov
web/gvm/master/binscripts/gvm-installer): ambiguous redirect
grep: /home/WitTheSecond/.bashrc: No such file or directory
./install-gvm.sh: line 15: /home/WitTheSecond/.gvm/scripts/gvm: No such file or
directory
./install-gvm.sh: line 18: gvm: command not found
./install-gvm.sh: line 24: gvm: command not found
Installing skycoin to $GOPATH
GOPATH is not set
Installing or updating skycoin dependencies
xargs: go: No such file or directory
Done
Do './run.sh -h' to confirm it is installed. This runs the daemon.
README.md has further instructions for building and running the gui.
"

I have a ubuntu live USB and a fresh drive. Would it be alot easier to use that?Huh

No idea. Golang has difficulty with replication. I changed the flags to the curl command in /compile/install-gvm.sh to fix a problem that one person had. Then other people began getting the problem you are having.

Can you open a ticket on github?

>mingw.

You are on windows? If you are on windows, install go, then do

go run ./cmd/skycoin/skycoin.go -web-interface=true

The gvm script may not work on windows. You should just need go and it should work.

You may need to do
./compile/get-dependencies.sh

>mingw

We need cross compilation from ubuntu. There is a mingw compiler for linux that allows creation of the binaries for windows. It is implemented and works with golang, but there are no instructions for getting it working.

Parano
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January 31, 2015, 07:52:48 AM
 #1575

I hope the 98% is a joke
Cryptoworld will cried scam for sure!
Give to a single person the control of 98% of the coins plus to a unknown guy


This is not a joke, this is total manipulation, it's the same as ripple. I doubt anyone would participate on a IPO like this, 2 % of the total coins No thanks!!

And nobody will buy after the IPO as all the money will go only to one person, The Dev.

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January 31, 2015, 09:06:26 AM
Last edit: January 31, 2015, 10:10:13 AM by skycoin
 #1576

I hope the 98% is a joke
Cryptoworld will cried scam for sure!
Give to a single person the control of 98% of the coins plus to a unknown guy


This is not a joke, this is total manipulation, it's the same as ripple. I doubt anyone would participate on a IPO like this, 2 % of the total coins No thanks!!

And nobody will buy after the IPO as all the money will go only to one person, The Dev.

Dont compare Skycoin to Ripple. At least half the coins will be distributed to the community over next five years (or over a reasonable schedule). We are doing a tapered distribution like Bitcoin. This is the best strategy for gradual appreciation over time.

Handling Speculators:

There are speculators who will push massive amounts of Bitcoin into Skycoin. They can send the price 50x the IPO price for very little money, then hype coin, bringing in new money. They sell off until they have made more than the cost of the pump. Then they dump everything. Everyone who came in later is angry because they lost money.

We have studied the pump behavior of the NXT clones and we have studied every coin IPO. There is no perfect IPO. Every IPO is unfair to someone. There is no distribution strategy that will make everyone happy. No matter which strategy is chosen, there will be complaints. This strategy was chosen, so that
1> we can control the pump behavior to a reasonable range.
2> the distribution ends up being fairer and more evenly distributed

The more coins are distributed in the IPO vs over time, the more unequal the resulting coin distribution will be five or ten years from now.

Suggestions for improvement:

It is not enough to criticize the IPO format, but you have to come up with a better distribution strategy and an argument for why that strategy is superior. There are trade-offs. The IPO that makes the most money for the people in the IPO may not be the best strategy for the long-term health of the coins or for stable price levels.

IPO Choices that were made

We also made a choice to minimize the importance of the the IPO. The IPO does not matter, because it is such a small amount of coins. By the time 10% of the coins are distributed, only a fifth of them will have been from the IPO. The returns will be modest (we expect no more than 5x) over people coming in at 10% of distribution. A 5x return is nice, but its not a billion percent return like Bitcoin. A 5x return on 200k is only 1 million. So the IPO people will be ok, but they wont be billionaires while the people who come later are mere millionaires.

Even if the Skycoin IPO is completely unfair and a compete disaster, the amount of coins involved is so small, it is of little consequence in the long run. Five times as many coins will enter the market over the next year as during the IPO.

In Bitcoin, there inequality was immense. There were people who bought coins at 1000 Bitcoin per dollar and people who bought at $200 per coins. The average Bitcoin user may have 1 coins or 10 coins and there are users who own 500,000 coins. If the developers do not screw up and are responsible, the level of inequality in Skycoin will be significantly lower than in Bitcoin. A more widely and evenly distributed coin, will have lower volatility.

Psychological Aspects of Altcoin Volatility

There are people who bought Bitcoin when it was at a penny and who slam 10,000 Bitcoins coins back and forth like a coked up day trader. Its monopoly money to them. If they lose 2000 Bitcoin, they do not feel psychological loss because the coins cost them nothing. They need to gain or lose 1000 coins for gambling to be exciting. They need volatility and need to create volatility to satisfy their gambling impulses. This is not

Minimizing Inflation:

People have brought up concerns that going from 2% to 50% distribution of coins will cause inflation. This is true. A good rule, is that the percentage of new coins released as percentage of existing coins (inflation rate) should always be kept less than the long term appreciation rate of the coin.

We intend to do the distribution so that it does not put downward pressure on price. Distribution will decrease if it pushes price down. So going from 2% distributed to 10% will not be a 5x inflation, but will be like Bitcoin going from a cent to a dollar, while the number of Bitcoin itself has increased.

With this strategy, the market cap reflects a circulation of 100 million coins (100%) and not the free float. The inflation rate will always be lower than the rate of long term appreciation.

Developer Self Interest

It is best for the community if the developers are stingy and greedy, but not exploitative.
- coins which are more scarce, will have higher valuations. Developers who shower coins on everyone will make the coin worthless
- developers who plan to make all their money on the coin IPO are not invested in the long term growth. Raising a large IPO means the developers are already rich and they dont have as much as an incentive to increase the coin value. Most coins today are designed to make all the money at the IPO instead of being a long-term prospect.
- a developer selling most of the coins up front means the developer would rather have Bitcoin than his own coin. It shows they lack confidence or commitment in the long term growth of the coin.
- developers who are weak and cave into social pressure, are incapable of making sound or fair decisions. The best choice for the long term, will often make people unhappy. There is a difference between being reasonable and fair and making decisions based upon who can whine the loudest.
- If we only need $200,000 for immediate first year budget, should we raise $200,000 and spend it on the project. OR should we raise $2,000,000 and go and buy sports cars. Why not just sit on the money for five years and buy a castle when Bitcoin hits $10,000. Both other developers AND investors have told us that they dont understand why we dont take as we can get.
- The more coins we give out in the IPO, the fewer major contributors we can compensate. 1% of Bitcoin is 4 million dollars and may be worth 60 million someday. We can give out 1% stakes to key contributors making major contributions and 0.1% stakes to other contributor and so on and the rewards are more compelling if the coin is scarcer. We will be spending 10% of the market cap of the coin each year on development and driving user growth. The best developers want to work on projects they find personally rewarding, they need 40k to 150k/year compensation and they need enough equity to buy a house or retire (with castles and sports cars) if the project succeeds.

Summary

That is the best long term strategy we were able to design
- a small IPO (so small that it is meaningless in the long term)
- a fixed number of coins per day, decreasing over time (tapered distribution)

That is the best possible strategy that we have seen so far.

So if there are 100 million coins and goal is 50% distribution, then a simple rule is "10 million coins per year for five years". In reality, this is a rule of thumb and we are going to do what maximizes the long term value for the stakeholders.

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January 31, 2015, 09:25:00 AM
Last edit: January 31, 2015, 03:50:44 PM by oddwh
 #1577

Half of the coins ? In the next five years ? Seems like you ignored my post ... At the end of the five years, we will have 25x the initial distribution (from the first ipo) which is a 2500% inflation. The market will never be able to afford it... You'll kill your coin with this distribution model.
I don't understand why you HAVE to sell only 2% during the first ipo... Even with 10 or 20% you are still able to control pumps.

And no this is not inequal. We are the first to invest, this is us who are taking all the risks, so that's normal if we get the best profit.

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mightname
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January 31, 2015, 11:28:32 AM
 #1578

Half of the coins ? In the next five years ? Seems like you ignored my post ... At the end of the five years, we will have 25x the initial distribution (from the first ipo) which is a 2500% inflation. The market will never be able to afford it... You'll kill your coin with this distribution model.
I don't understand why you HAVE to sell only 2% during the first ipo... Even with 10 or 20% you are still able tout control pumps.

And no this is not inequal. We are the first to invest, this is us who are taking all the risks, so that's normal if we get the best profit.

Yes. Dev should take into account the early investors. They will take the most risks and should get according profit.
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January 31, 2015, 12:01:21 PM
 #1579

IPO

None of the developers want to deal with issues for windows builds. 2000 coin bounty.

Someone with linux, read this, then document steps to cross compile on debian for windows with mingw, for 32 and 64 bit
- http://www.limitlessfx.com/cross-compile-golang-app-for-windows-from-linux.html

Then put command line steps here.
https://github.com/skycoin/skycoin/issues/24

Otherwise, we will start IPO without windows builds.  Roll Eyes

Someone please help build the windows client! 2000 skycoin!
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January 31, 2015, 12:03:49 PM
 #1580

Stuck again with windows installation.

I installed mingw.
Ran the mingw shell.

Managed to clone skycoin's github completely.

When I ran ./setup.sh

It got stuck with gvm and go1.4

"$ ./setup.sh
Installing gvm and go1.4
./install-gvm.sh: cannot make pipe for process substitution: Function not implem
ented
./install-gvm.sh: cannot make pipe for process substitution: Function not implem
ented
./install-gvm.sh: line 4: <(curl -s -S -L https://raw.githubusercontent.com/moov
web/gvm/master/binscripts/gvm-installer): ambiguous redirect
grep: /home/WitTheSecond/.bashrc: No such file or directory
./install-gvm.sh: line 15: /home/WitTheSecond/.gvm/scripts/gvm: No such file or
directory
./install-gvm.sh: line 18: gvm: command not found
./install-gvm.sh: line 24: gvm: command not found
Installing skycoin to $GOPATH
GOPATH is not set
Installing or updating skycoin dependencies
xargs: go: No such file or directory
Done
Do './run.sh -h' to confirm it is installed. This runs the daemon.
README.md has further instructions for building and running the gui.
"

I have a ubuntu live USB and a fresh drive. Would it be alot easier to use that?Huh

No idea. Golang has difficulty with replication. I changed the flags to the curl command in /compile/install-gvm.sh to fix a problem that one person had. Then other people began getting the problem you are having.

Can you open a ticket on github?

>mingw.

You are on windows? If you are on windows, install go, then do

go run ./cmd/skycoin/skycoin.go -web-interface=true

The gvm script may not work on windows. You should just need go and it should work.

You may need to do
./compile/get-dependencies.sh

>mingw

We need cross compilation from ubuntu. There is a mingw compiler for linux that allows creation of the binaries for windows. It is implemented and works with golang, but there are no instructions for getting it working.

I tried following your instructions.
I installed go and tried a few commands but still had no luck.
I'm not as technically advanced as you dev.
I might try to use ubuntu but someone else was having trouble with that too.
Detailed instructions on how to install with windows or ubuntu would be nice for me...
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