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Author Topic: [SKY] Skycoin Launch Announcement  (Read 379696 times)
yufu571
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September 16, 2014, 03:43:04 PM
 #1321

IPO Update

The IPO cannot work the way we originally intended. There is no way to cap the number of Bitcoin per person that can participate in the IPO.

Browser finger printing does not work. It cannot reliably detect which users are bots and which are not. Bot nets and even proxies still get through.

Then we were going to do IPO over Bitmessage, but with validation of Bitcoin talks username. However, there are people who have several thousands Bitcoin Talks accounts registered. These users would be able to participate in the IPO multiple times, but normal users would be unable to.

The other frustrating thing,
1> The bitmessage library for golang we were using does not actually work. We had to rewrite the IPO script into python. Ideally, we would have used JSON/HTML requests on Bitmessage and use golang, but the Bitmessage API implements XMLRPC... (There is a massive effort underway to rewrite Bitmessage on C++ and create language bindings for each language, so these problems should decrease over time)
2> When building the exchange for doing the IPO, we had to use bitcoind. There is no RPC in bitcoind to check the balance of the unspent transaction output set for an address. We originally intended to generate a list of private keys and addresses on a computer never connected to the internet and move the address list to the server running the IPO. These offline addresses were to be used for receiving IPO funds and their balance queried by the server. This would prevent bitcoin from being stolen if the IPO server was identified and hacked. However, this is impossible under the Bitcoin API, for the same reason that Bitcoin makes building mobile thin clients very frustrating. We have to do the IPO with a hot wallet and move the coins into the cold wallet over time instead of just receiving the coins into a cold wallet address. We thought there was some way to get the unspent outputs for an address with bitcoind, but this is apparently very difficult.
3> Some git accident happened and the deterministic wallet input feature in the Skycoin wallet GUI seems to have disappeared. This feature is used in the IPO for importing the wallet the addresses coins are received into.
4> The server running bitcoind for the IPO, is taking over four days to download the bitcoin blockchain. I keep deleting peers.dat and restarting it and it goes for a few hours and then stops. Slow peers are slowing down the download.

Good News

The whole project scope is being laid out in a document. It describes at implementation level, each component and what is required. This should enable project development to escape the existing bottlenecks. We are close enough now, that running out of new things to develop is on the horizon. The darknet design is substantially done. It ended up being very simple.

The consensus algorithm is has been simplified. Implementation will be 150 lines, instead of ten thousand. Everything was stripped out that was not needed for operation. If a chain fork successfully propagates (very restricted conditions), the client will replicate both chains and defer to the operator of each node to choose manually which chain to prune. All the honest nodes should end up on the same chain and the attacker nodes will split into a separate network.

Bitcoin is vulnerable to netsplit attacks, but the conditions required are difficult to achieve and have not been observed. Theoretical netsplits may not be a threat we should be focusing on at this point of development. Especially if handling this edge case was 90% of the complexity in the consensus algorithm.

IPO Timeline

The IPO script is in progress. I dont want to give a date, when it will be ready because it will probably take longer.
Thanks for your update.

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September 16, 2014, 04:08:39 PM
 #1322

IPO Update
Then we were going to do IPO over Bitmessage, but with validation of Bitcoin talks username. However, there are people who have several thousands Bitcoin Talks accounts registered. These users would be able to participate in the IPO multiple times, but normal users would be unable to.

You can make some restrictive conditions for the bitcointalk users‘ participation. For example, the date registered of accounts should be prior to the Skycoin project released(2013, December), account's total time logged in must be longer than 10 hours, the activity must be more than 20 posts, or just make the IPO open to the Member, Full Member, Sr. Member and Hero.
PS: given the risk of the IPO, why do you so afraid about one investor’s share of the IPO?  

Good Luck For Everyone!
beitris.dwlul
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September 16, 2014, 08:11:33 PM
 #1323

It's a really innovative coin.  Grin

chompyZ
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September 17, 2014, 04:15:27 AM
 #1324

I have yet to see an IPO mechanism that 'solves' the equal distribution issue, or the dumpers issue.
The best long-term solution is imho relaying on POW, where most of the coins are mined in the future, thus even the most greedy actor can consume that much coins in the present. This is of-course in complete contrast to PoS coins that suffer from very high and growing concentration of wealth between a few.

In any case, I also think dev is putting too much emphasis on the IPO mechanism, where what really matters is the coin technology, innovation and smooth launch.
At the end of the day, it is the market that decides about the price, as well as about the coin's viability, rather than the early adaptors and the short-term actors.
my 2cents.

e1ghtSpace
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September 17, 2014, 04:41:11 AM
 #1325


4> The server running bitcoind for the IPO, is taking over four days to download the bitcoin blockchain. I keep deleting peers.dat and restarting it and it goes for a few hours and then stops. Slow peers are slowing down the download.
I used the blockchain torrent to combat this issue and it only took 1 day. However I'm not sure if it works with bitcoind but since the qt essentially is bitcoind with a GUI it probably would work.
Or maybe you could put the torrent into another computer (if you can'to put it straight onto the bitcoind server) on the same network and make the bitcoind use that computer to download the blockchain.
lovely89
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September 17, 2014, 05:55:05 AM
 #1326

I have yet to see an IPO mechanism that 'solves' the equal distribution issue, or the dumpers issue.
The best long-term solution is imho relaying on POW, where most of the coins are mined in the future, thus even the most greedy actor can consume that much coins in the present. This is of-course in complete contrast to PoS coins that suffer from very high and growing concentration of wealth between a few.

In any case, I also think dev is putting too much emphasis on the IPO mechanism, where what really matters is the coin technology, innovation and smooth launch.
At the end of the day, it is the market that decides about the price, as well as about the coin's viability, rather than the early adaptors and the short-term actors.
my 2cents.



Core technology work = 3 years.
Distribution method ~~ 2 months?

Also, distribution will be done over years but it will be much more difficult for anyone who doesn't contribute to the project to gain a large stake, excluding the developers.

The extreme distribution problems seen with nxt and bitcoin will be minimised. Instead the people who designed and built the platform will be in control. Unless a fool proof 'fair' distribution method is realised, this seems like the best solution for a long term fair spread of the coin.

Bitrated user: vanlovely.
dance
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September 17, 2014, 08:57:31 AM
 #1327

IPO Update

The IPO cannot work the way we originally intended. There is no way to cap the number of Bitcoin per person that can participate in the IPO.

Browser finger printing does not work. It cannot reliably detect which users are bots and which are not. Bot nets and even proxies still get through.

Then we were going to do IPO over Bitmessage, but with validation of Bitcoin talks username. However, there are people who have several thousands Bitcoin Talks accounts registered. These users would be able to participate in the IPO multiple times, but normal users would be unable to.
You can do facebook page check and phone number check. It will make sockpuppeting much harder.

The other frustrating thing,
1> The bitmessage library for golang we were using does not actually work. We had to rewrite the IPO script into python. Ideally, we would have used JSON/HTML requests on Bitmessage and use golang, but the Bitmessage API implements XMLRPC... (There is a massive effort underway to rewrite Bitmessage on C++ and create language bindings for each language, so these problems should decrease over time)
2> When building the exchange for doing the IPO, we had to use bitcoind. There is no RPC in bitcoind to check the balance of the unspent transaction output set for an address. We originally intended to generate a list of private keys and addresses on a computer never connected to the internet and move the address list to the server running the IPO. These offline addresses were to be used for receiving IPO funds and their balance queried by the server. This would prevent bitcoin from being stolen if the IPO server was identified and hacked. However, this is impossible under the Bitcoin API, for the same reason that Bitcoin makes building mobile thin clients very frustrating. We have to do the IPO with a hot wallet and move the coins into the cold wallet over time instead of just receiving the coins into a cold wallet address. We thought there was some way to get the unspent outputs for an address with bitcoind, but this is apparently very difficult.
3> Some git accident happened and the deterministic wallet input feature in the Skycoin wallet GUI seems to have disappeared. This feature is used in the IPO for importing the wallet the addresses coins are received into.
4> The server running bitcoind for the IPO, is taking over four days to download the bitcoin blockchain. I keep deleting peers.dat and restarting it and it goes for a few hours and then stops. Slow peers are slowing down the download.
Maybe use NXT instead of Bitcoin?
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September 17, 2014, 10:14:24 PM
 #1328

Thanks for the update and looking forward to the the IPO, no rush, get it well organized and ready first.  Smiley
asnghost
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September 18, 2014, 09:36:32 AM
 #1329

Thanks for the update and looking forward to the the IPO, no rush, get it well organized and ready first.  Smiley

Yes, I agree with above.

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September 20, 2014, 09:39:07 AM
 #1330

If only 2% to 10% will be sold during the IPO, how will the rest be distributed?
skycoin
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September 23, 2014, 09:25:10 AM
 #1331

Update:

Two separate people are independently working on the IPO script. Should get done soon.

Another dev is trying to fix the merge conflict and error that is appearing on the github repo.

The main dev doing the design work is disorganized and prone to burn out. We are forcing him to get an engineering project management and to write things down, so other people can do them.

Documentation and descriptions of software libraries that need to be written, will be placed on Github immediately. We are not waiting for Aether/Merkle-DAG to be completed to release documents. Document releases will be smaller, more frequent.

Tutorials for developers are going on a github wiki.

Initially we thought, the darknet would be working fairly quickly and we could run the whole client on top of it. However, now parts of the coin could not be finished because it required infrastructure that was not implemented yet. We are moving away from relying upon infrastructure that is not completed and focusing on what we can get done now

In particular
- the darknet will be in Golang, not C
- the darknet will be separate from the daemon for the coin, until its ready
- the coin will use existing modules and will not transition to Merkle-DAG for block storage, until Merkle-DAG is working

We will release a prototype consensus algorithm and run the chain on top of that, with some safe guards (developer signing key) to deal with attacks/errors that arise. This will protect against loss of coins, while allowing us to launch. The consensus mechanism will be deployed in stages, instead of trying to make it perfect and 100% implemented at launch (which may delay launch another year).


LemonAndFries
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September 23, 2014, 02:03:03 PM
 #1332

Update:

Two separate people are independently working on the IPO script. Should get done soon.

Another dev is trying to fix the merge conflict and error that is appearing on the github repo.

The main dev doing the design work is disorganized and prone to burn out. We are forcing him to get an engineering project management and to write things down, so other people can do them.

Documentation and descriptions of software libraries that need to be written, will be placed on Github immediately. We are not waiting for Aether/Merkle-DAG to be completed to release documents. Document releases will be smaller, more frequent.

Tutorials for developers are going on a github wiki.

Initially we thought, the darknet would be working fairly quickly and we could run the whole client on top of it. However, now parts of the coin could not be finished because it required infrastructure that was not implemented yet. We are moving away from relying upon infrastructure that is not completed and focusing on what we can get done now

In particular
- the darknet will be in Golang, not C
- the darknet will be separate from the daemon for the coin, until its ready
- the coin will use existing modules and will not transition to Merkle-DAG for block storage, until Merkle-DAG is working

We will release a prototype consensus algorithm and run the chain on top of that, with some safe guards (developer signing key) to deal with attacks/errors that arise. This will protect against loss of coins, while allowing us to launch. The consensus mechanism will be deployed in stages, instead of trying to make it perfect and 100% implemented at launch (which may delay launch another year).


+1
provenceday
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September 23, 2014, 05:11:30 PM
 #1333

still watch this.
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September 26, 2014, 05:45:00 AM
 #1334

How well does the Meshnet work right now?

Can it get pass the great firewall of China?

Is there a standard hardware that you recommend?
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September 27, 2014, 04:31:19 AM
 #1335

How well does the Meshnet work right now?

Can it get pass the great firewall of China?

Is there a standard hardware that you recommend?

+1 I would really like to know if the meshnet could break the great fire wall

NEM
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September 27, 2014, 10:47:43 PM
 #1336

How well does the Meshnet work right now?

Can it get pass the great firewall of China?

Is there a standard hardware that you recommend?

I don't think the meshnet is close to be ready, I believe it'll come at a later stage after the rest is up and running and stable. But I may be wrong.
dance
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September 29, 2014, 12:15:19 AM
 #1337

As evidenced with Cloakcoin, the infrequent updates, erratic messages, refusal to accept community support, and difficulty establishing communication with the developer destroyed what was a promising coin; I would hate to see Skycoin go down the same path.
Cloakcoin never was a promising coin. Only as P&D on technologically ignorant people.
skycoin
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October 01, 2014, 01:13:50 PM
 #1338

Update

We have library now, for checking the unspent outputs for addresses. We are using obelisk tool kit and it is working well. The bitcoin blockchain synchronization has been running for a week now. It is on block 285,100 of block 323,354. It is 70 GB on disc and we dont know why. It has slowed down periodically, but has not stopped completely like bitcoind has. It is downloading a block a second. Blockchain synchronization should be finished within a hundred thousand seconds in the worst case (hopefully) and then we can test to make sure the IPO software works.

A basic exchange will run over bitmessage and possibly IRC. Bitmessage will have a few problems. You have to download 20 GB of messages before the message response appears. The server will also only be able to send out a few messages per minute because of the PoW requirement on the message. Another solution, might be a web server with cloudflare and it might be enough, depending on the DDoS conditions. A tor hidden service is another option. The Skycoin darknet is not ready to host this application yet because required components have not been implemented yet.

We want to get the IPO over and get back to the darknet and encryption utilities.

nonlinearboy
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October 01, 2014, 01:22:06 PM
 #1339

Update

We have library now, for checking the unspent outputs for addresses. We are using obelisk tool kit and it is working well. The bitcoin blockchain synchronization has been running for a week now. It is on block 285,100 of block 323,354. It is 70 GB on disc and we dont know why. It has slowed down periodically, but has not stopped completely like bitcoind has. It is downloading a block a second. Blockchain synchronization should be finished within a hundred thousand seconds in the worst case (hopefully) and then we can test to make sure the IPO software works.

A basic exchange will run over bitmessage and possibly IRC. Bitmessage will have a few problems. You have to download 20 GB of messages before the message response appears. The server will also only be able to send out a few messages per minute because of the PoW requirement on the message. Another solution, might be a web server with cloudflare and it might be enough, depending on the DDoS conditions. A tor hidden service is another option. The Skycoin darknet is not ready to host this application yet because required components have not been implemented yet.

We want to get the IPO over and get back to the darknet and encryption utilities.
so still have chance to join in the IPO?
just waitting for IPO.
skycoin
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October 01, 2014, 01:34:39 PM
 #1340

How well does the Meshnet work right now?

Can it get pass the great firewall of China?

Is there a standard hardware that you recommend?

I don't think the meshnet is close to be ready, I believe it'll come at a later stage after the rest is up and running and stable. But I may be wrong.

Once the IPO is released, I was wondering if we could have more direct leadership from the Skycoin developers.

We need a direct line of communication with the developers so that we can discuss strategies on how to increase adoption, marketing, and coordinate other efforts to make this coin a success. We need the community to work on how to simplify the technology to the masses and how to channel their hatred towards the big internet companies to increase the adoption. A constant communication with the developers will ensure that our efforts are in line with their vision and that we will be progressing forward not backwards.

Furthermore, when we do launch the meshnet, there will obviously be a lot of technological hurdles to overcome. We need technical support from the developers to help overcome any of these problems that our users may experience. Otherwise frustration from deployment will lead to many users giving up.

While these sporadic updates are fine for now, this cannot continue once the coin is released. A more constant presence is needed.

As evidenced with Cloakcoin, the infrequent updates, erratic messages, refusal to accept community support, and difficulty establishing communication with the developer destroyed what was a promising coin; I would hate to see Skycoin go down the same path.

Thank you

Yes. Right now development is disorganized. Trying to get all developers in one place. Skycoin has a large number of active developers, but very few of them are working at one time, because no one knows what needs to be done. There is not enough project documentation and technical specifications.

I think there needs to be a developer chatroom. Marketing and most everything outside of the core cryptography and blockchain, will be handed over to the community after launch. After the darknet is up, communication will increase significantly.

The meshnet will be a massive coordination effort. It requires people on ground and several different hardware teams. It will probably require ASICs eventually and its an undertaking far larger than the coin implementation. Right now the focus is finishing the coin IPO, then getting the darknet working at basic level. This will enable file sharing (distributed file system), websites and communication tools. The darknet will still be useful, even if it is merely running over traditional internet.

Then we can add mesh, peer-to-peer connections to the darknet topology. Then eventually tunnel normal internet traffic over the darknet/meshnet to a peerage point and transit back to the normal internet (similar to a VPN, but running over meshnet to exit point). Just getting those simple steps working, would be a great achievement.

The good news, is that after much frustration and coding, we discovered that the meshnet/darknet implementation is actually much simpler than imagined. The internet will face palm at the power and elegance of the resulting architecture.  The implementation is simple enough, that there can be no unanswered questions about its security and the performance and privacy are beyond Tor. Tor is over 180,000 lines of code and this method is clearly superior with significantly less complexity and higher performance.

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