NobleCoin[NOBL] - 8% PoS | 1Yr+ | MARKETPLACE | PAY | GIFT | CHARITIES/MERCHANTS

[cdg1941]

Damnation

agreed, about the quoting

trust me on this, I agree with you about the need for some form of government. the need for rules and regulations came about with the development of society ( a group of individuals occupying the same relative space), i.e. the first tribes or clans. it is needed for any society to exist.

i think that we also agree on the need for some form of accountability. although i think that we differ on what we would consider to be income. personally ( as well as classically) i view income to be profit. and not the product of labor. but that is just me. i also have doubts about the 16th amendment being ratified. i have looked into a number of cases in which the defendant was acquitted due to the fact that there doesn't seem to be a law forcing us to pay taxes on our labor. to be honest after looking at the numbers i personally believe we would be better served with an end user national sales tax, instead of the cluster fuck of a tax code that we currently have in place. that way everyone pays tax on there own consumption instead of their labor. it just seems more fair to me. mostly due to that fact that over 50% of what we pay at the store ( as an end user/ purchaser) is tax ( incurred taxes from every step that said product has incurred on its way from raw material, processing, shipping, to outlet). without all of that, and end user sales tax on consumption would help those of us ( myself included) that live below the poverty line greatly.

but i digress, as far as my comment about the mixing system being employed, from a personal aspect, i can understand both sides of the coin. the inherent problems that can develop due to complete anonymity are of a great concern and should be. on the other hand, it is also my belief that our governments are trying to gain too much control over our lives. so i'm kinda split on the subject. as far as Noble is concerned, i don't see a need or a desire to employ such a system, due in part to our VERY public support of a variety of charities, it would be best to stay above the suspicion being directed towards BTC.

that being said, you are correct about the need for some type of regulation. especially in the arena of theft, since at the moment one can't really claim theft of something that doesn't "officially" exist.

this is a new economy ( in a sense) and a new form of value exchange, there are bound to be many bumps in the road. i only brought up the mixing concept as a means of pursuing debate and open dialogue.  

P.S. i think we both agree that the " Government shouldn't exist" types, are a bunch of idiots that never learned or understood the evolution of what we now call government, or the benefits it bestows onto a society.

P.P.S. i doubt that you don't already know this, but for those that don't. Income taxes do not pay for the fire department or the police, that would be your property taxes. so if you want a safe place to live, don't be a dick, pay your property taxes, that way the city/ town/ village/ hamlet doesn't have to find other sources of revenue.

[1715489164]

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[1715489164]

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[miKnutty]

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2014/02/10/worldcoin-price-crash-problem-african-well-project/#comment-17286


Cryptocoins News has kindly updated their original post and included us. Take a chance to read up. Thanks!

[cdg1941]

The message is clear only mainly based on the western point of view and even in the western world differences can be found.
Regarding the government part, it greatly depends on where you live. If you live in a country where money makes all decisions, you will have another opinion than when you live in a country where the government still has some power (although Banks are in full control of the financial system at the moment so I have no illusions on that)
When it comes to illigal stuff, I also think that this is dependant on where you live. What we see in the western world is that we associate illigal stuff with drugs and weapons while for example Cuba (using the example as a stereotype) has way different issues regarding how money can be spend.
So when looking at a currency and its use for privacy reasons, there are things you can consider being good but still outside of the law.
1 fantastic example would be when someone would need marihuana for medicinal reasons (like cancer side eefects) and needs to buy that. This is 1 example where governments are not willing to open up their minds and rather have the money companies decide what medicine people need.

P.s.
I do agree with the most part of the post though. I just wanted to broaden the view.

but that is what potcoin is for

[damnation]

1kb:

well.. thats the idea of having a discussion so the scope can be broadened

Now i am mixed chinese/indian by race. malaysian-chinese by citizenship. Indian by residency.
Generally i bounce around alot of south east asia for work.

India has very strict FOREX measures instituted by the Reserve Bank of India. For example: did you know that all those services like Western Union, moneygram, etc can only receive. There is no legal way to send money out. Unless its through a bank. Part of the reason is because the country cant really afford to send out its foreign reserves which have a tendency to be low. But more importantly, the country constantly faces the threat of money laundering to support terrorist groups.

Malaysia on the other hand not so much FOREX restrictions. Pretty much anyone can change anything anytime anywhere.. i believe the limit is about $15.5 M in a calendar year.. and if i had that much money.. i would be having different problems

I think the main issue we face with digital currency being integrated into real world transactions is based on the issue of "money laundering"
Generally speaking, money laundering is the concealment of income sources. Forget issues like terrorists, drugs, guns,etc. It comes down to the one basic crime that any democratic government loves to pursuse -"Tax Evasion".

And if its not a democratic country... chances are the citizens of that country have other problems to deal with other than the rise and fall of bitcoin prices...situations like no internet, power, food, etc.. I think down the line it would be better if Noble not take a stance on any political agenda. Rather, than working for/against or with the system. We focus on ways we can make things better.

Who knows down the line.. Rofo might be travelling to India.. to vet some kid looking for the funds to get a new heart... or Jiyome will be sent to Africa to look into the feasibility of a Clean Water Project. Nothing Political! Everything Practical! Or ZBBBB could be going to Indonesia to look at what could be done for their latest calamity - (earthquake,volcano,tsunami)

[damnation]

The message is clear only mainly based on the western point of view and even in the western world differences can be found.
Regarding the government part, it greatly depends on where you live. If you live in a country where money makes all decisions, you will have another opinion than when you live in a country where the government still has some power (although Banks are in full control of the financial system at the moment so I have no illusions on that)
When it comes to illigal stuff, I also think that this is dependant on where you live. What we see in the western world is that we associate illigal stuff with drugs and weapons while for example Cuba (using the example as a stereotype) has way different issues regarding how money can be spend.
So when looking at a currency and its use for privacy reasons, there are things you can consider being good but still outside of the law.
1 fantastic example would be when someone would need marihuana for medicinal reasons (like cancer side eefects) and needs to buy that. This is 1 example where governments are not willing to open up their minds and rather have the money companies decide what medicine people need.

P.s.
I do agree with the most part of the post though. I just wanted to broaden the view.

if potcoin pays for pot...
and beercoin pays for beer...

what does shitcoin pay for?

Sorry couldnt resist
but that is what potcoin is for

[cdg1941]

The message is clear only mainly based on the western point of view and even in the western world differences can be found.
Regarding the government part, it greatly depends on where you live. If you live in a country where money makes all decisions, you will have another opinion than when you live in a country where the government still has some power (although Banks are in full control of the financial system at the moment so I have no illusions on that)
When it comes to illigal stuff, I also think that this is dependant on where you live. What we see in the western world is that we associate illigal stuff with drugs and weapons while for example Cuba (using the example as a stereotype) has way different issues regarding how money can be spend.
So when looking at a currency and its use for privacy reasons, there are things you can consider being good but still outside of the law.
1 fantastic example would be when someone would need marihuana for medicinal reasons (like cancer side eefects) and needs to buy that. This is 1 example where governments are not willing to open up their minds and rather have the money companies decide what medicine people need.

P.s.
I do agree with the most part of the post though. I just wanted to broaden the view.

but that is what potcoin is for

if potcoin pays for pot...
and beercoin pays for beer...

what does shitcoin pay for?

Sorry couldnt resist

it pays for my mother-in-law's cooking

[damnation]

Damnation

agreed, about the quoting

trust me on this, I agree with you about the need for some form of government. the need for rules and regulations came about with the development of society ( a group of individuals occupying the same relative space), i.e. the first tribes or clans. it is needed for any society to exist.

i think that we also agree on the need for some form of accountability. although i think that we differ on what we would consider to be income. personally ( as well as classically) i view income to be profit. and not the product of labor. but that is just me. i also have doubts about the 16th amendment being ratified. i have looked into a number of cases in which the defendant was acquitted due to the fact that there doesn't seem to be a law forcing us to pay taxes on our labor. to be honest after looking at the numbers i personally believe we would be better served with an end user national sales tax, instead of the cluster fuck of a tax code that we currently have in place. that way everyone pays tax on there own consumption instead of their labor. it just seems more fair to me. mostly due to that fact that over 50% of what we pay at the store ( as an end user/ purchaser) is tax ( incurred taxes from every step that said product has incurred on its way from raw material, processing, shipping, to outlet). without all of that, and end user sales tax on consumption would help those of us ( myself included) that live below the poverty line greatly.

but i digress, as far as my comment about the mixing system being employed, from a personal aspect, i can understand both sides of the coin. the inherent problems that can develop due to complete anonymity are of a great concern and should be. on the other hand, it is also my belief that our governments are trying to gain too much control over our lives. so i'm kinda split on the subject. as far as Noble is concerned, i don't see a need or a desire to employ such a system, due in part to our VERY public support of a variety of charities, it would be best to stay above the suspicion being directed towards BTC.

that being said, you are correct about the need for some type of regulation. especially in the arena of theft, since at the moment one can't really claim theft of something that doesn't "officially" exist.

this is a new economy ( in a sense) and a new form of value exchange, there are bound to be many bumps in the road. i only brought up the mixing concept as a means of pursuing debate and open dialogue.  

P.S. i think we both agree that the " Government shouldn't exist" types, are a bunch of idiots that never learned or understood the evolution of what we now call government, or the benefits it bestows onto a society.

P.P.S. i doubt that you don't already know this, but for those that don't. Income taxes do not pay for the fire department or the police, that would be your property taxes. so if you want a safe place to live, don't be a dick, pay your property taxes, that way the city/ town/ village/ hamlet doesn't have to find other sources of revenue.

First clarification... I did not think you brought up the mixing concept to make Noble more anonymous... but accepted your offer for debate and open dialogue.

I think the general consensus when it comes to cryptocurrency is "being split" its still in its infant stages and so a lot will have to be done to really get it done. On the issue of tax.. to be honest.. i would love to see a tax on profit system. Its a great idea. but i think it will entail even more paperwork/scrutiny/regulations for the simple reason being its easy to under-declare your profit by padding expenses. And governments are slow to change and generally take the part of least resistance. 

I remember when i lived in Indonesia awhile ago that there was  a drive there for companies to register and pay taxes. It was pretty funny because of the top 100 corporations in Indonesia.. apparently only something like 15 actually were registered and paid their taxes. We are talking about companies with assets in the billions, existing for 25+ years and not paying any tax. The drive was such that the government was willing to forgo past debts provided they register then.. two weeks after that initiative it was reported none came forward to register.. not sure what happened after as i left the country.

Fact of the matter is... I like the fact that dev and ambassadors actually gave up anonymity for this project. By doing so they have literally become the foundation we can build the Noble Framework on.. btw i will likely try to visit each of them.. at some point..

[damnation]

blah blah blah

it pays for my mother-in-law's cooking

And likely your wife's as well if she see's that post...

edit*  i guess i wasnt the only one who couldnt resist

[1Kb]

blah blah blah

it pays for my mother-in-law's cooking

And likely your wife's as well if she see's that post...

edit*  i guess i wasnt the only one who couldnt resist

The only thing I read is that you want to pay your pizza's with NobelCoin:D

[sofaking]

yourmine, coinmarket, bter, coinex... seems like they all gone. Feels so cold and lonely  
Is it CloudFlare or KGB blocks me?  

OK, seriously. I just have 6 posts here (yeah I prefer reading!) and don't wanna flood the thread, but, Rofo, I promise I'll put that great sign when I reach 10 posts in profile. Just want to spend 2K NOBL for the water project  


edit: ok, it's KGB for sure. all sites are up after my reply  

[cdg1941]

Damnation


the issues with the tax on profit, as you pointed out, has a number of issues. that is specifically why i think an end user sales tax of say 25% would be fair. as i can't comment or translate all of it to your current nation of residency i will use the united states.

here we have a lot of tax, mostly classified as an "indirect tax". it is also well known that companies do not "pay" taxes. they pass the tax expense onto the consumers. so when the corporate tax goes up, the price for a product at the store also increases. here in Michigan, total accumulated taxes on a product can ( in some cases) reach as high a 85% of the purchase price. with that in mind. the argument for a national "end user" sales tax becomes simple. if ( going by our current tax code) a product that costs $100, were to only have the end user sales tax imposed upon it. the price would then be $15 before the "end user" sales tax is imposed. once the end user sales tax is imposed the total cost of said product is $ 18.75. that is a total savings ( on the consumer, being you and me) of over 80%. and since it is imposed on all products, everybody pays taxes on what they consume. it would also allow those of us at or near the bottom of the income bracket to gain more value out of our fiat currency, as well as cut the cost of government by removing the bureaucratic processes involved in a more complicated tax code that focuses on taxing ones labor. that being said, property taxes would still need apply to those that hold property ( land). but that is for a federal tax system. local municipalities would still be able to levy their own taxes based on the needs of the community, which should go up to a vote by the community.

this would not only simplify the tax code but it would also remove the ability of some people from paying said taxes, and with the reduction of governmental resources, a reduction in governmental expenses would result. therefore the collected taxes can go to more necessary expenses other that paying unnecessary governmental employees.

and with the added capital in the hands of the people, that allows them to spend more, thus enriching the economy and creating more jobs. it also stretches the holding of the people that earn their holding through their labor, so that they may invest into other areas of the economy,, may that be tech, energy, medical, etc...

not only would it put more money in your hands, cut governmental spending in areas that are not necessary, but it would also give the government a revenue feedback loop. what i mean by this is that, the more money that is in the hands of the public, the more likely they are to spend it, the more they spend, the more taxes they pay ( but in proportion of what they consume), the more taxes they pay, the more revenue the government receives. and as people incur more wealth the government has more funds to pay for NECESSARY expenditures.

now for companies that do business overseas, a registry would need to be created so that there can be oversight over their total revenue and profits. this would be necessary because corporate revenue can vary greatly depending on what county that company is doing business with. and if a company wants to take jobs out of their country of origin then an additional tax should be imposed on the profits that were incurred outside of said country of origin.

P.S. it was my wife that first warned me of her mothers cooking skills or lack thereof.

P.P.S. yes, i want to be able to order a pizza using Noble

[hellscabane]

ok i feel silly quoting such large bunch of texts as we are generally on the same page...

cdg1941:

I actually think this whole avoid "big brother" motive is an exercise in futility. If we want to see real world integration of digital currency there are going to have to be guidelines... the term "I have nothing to hide" comes in play. I believe initially the whole idea for digital cryptocurrency was for fast secure, financial transactions without paying exorbitant banking fees.. Also, the whole hassle of dealing with a bank officer is usually enough for one to start considering ways to never visit a bank again...

This whole anonymity thing is just a little bit ridiculous. Various forum talk about how governments aren't needed. I saw someone write a long wordy post about "how governments dont exist. They are fictional entities which were formed by a group of people who get together and write up a constitutions and that becomes a government.. etc etc etc".. But, the fact of the matter is, everyone forgets that the reason we can do what we do is because of the same governments. I think time would be better spent thinking up ways of being integrated into mainstream life.

I get tired of those screaming about how the government don't do anything as i find them to be idealists with a very loose grip on reality. Mining operations live and die on Electricity. Electricity is either state owned or privately-run with government oversight. Or do people really believe power is going to do run from the goodness of their heart? Or better yet.. lets dissolve all governments and let the world be run "directly" by the corporations... you can expect things to be good at the start and prices to rise over time (not much different from the way things are now but we already live in the world where corporations rule behind the scene)... And why do we need the police after all everyone is good so there are no criminals... we dont have thieves, murderers or rapists.. they are just misunderstood individuals.  

Oh, i do believe in separation of church and state. I believe governments should stay out of my home, my sex life and my personal decisions. But i also believe that my taxes go towards Police, Firemen, electricity, water, good roads, etc. I also believe some politicians and bureaucrats will get their cut.. Its not a perfect system.  But show me one thing that is perfect in this world? I also believe that governments can go too far invading privacy

But, the current system in place states that all income must be reported. It doesnt say "some" but "all".. fact is.. digital currency IS being used to launder funds.. to avoid income tax... and to generally hide away their financial liquidity. I find it funny that governments need to keep repeating to their citizens that their bitcoin investments are not covered by insurance. When BTC gets stolen from your exchange etc.. what happens? we go to the police (government lapdogs, i believe is the term).. The whole system is slightly crazy... in the beginning when its good people talk about how the government should stay away from them and their bitcoin transactions.. and then poof a new ponzi scheme and a few 100K bitcoins are stolen and it becomes a lets all get together and file a complaint with the police...

Sorry about the rant.. but its along the lines of how people keep saying "Eat only organic vegetables" here's a news flash the only way the world is going to be able to grow and feed the entire world organic vegetables is by killing off about a third of the population otherwise there's not enough space.. With developments in the world today... we are seeing less and less farms and more and more industrial and housing sub divisions.. i generally tell people this that if they want to prove that point.. they would literally have to die for the rest of the world to be fed that way.. either that or we demolish their house and plant a farm there which should keep him fed for about a month and then he will have to wait.

http://forexmagnates.com/quebecs-amf-alerts-residents-on-risks-of-bitcoin-after-atms-launched-in-province/

heliscabane:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith

Not to be a dick  

Faith is confidence or trust in a person (as in their ability), thing, deity, in the doctrines or teachings of a religion, or view (e.g. having strong political faith) even without empirical evidence. It can also be belief that is not based on proof,[1] or as confidence based upon varying degrees of evidential warrant. The word faith is often used as a conceptual synonym for hope,[2] trust,[3] belief[4] or knowledge.[5][/b]

EDIT: In layman's term... In Noble - I Trust!

Very solid points. There is a lot of macro factors that conflict and that is one of the biggest issues.

And as for the faith thingy, not sure why I used belief, I should have used "confidence" instead. >_< Ha. I just was trying to say I have a technical grounding that backs up my trust in NOBLE. It's more than just, "to da moon" and "pump pump pump" that I get from this crypto. And it's nice.

[hellscabane]

Damnation


the issues with the tax on profit, as you pointed out, has a number of issues. that is specifically why i think an end user sales tax of say 25% would be fair. as i can't comment or translate all of it to your current nation of residency i will use the united states.

here we have a lot of tax, mostly classified as an "indirect tax". it is also well known that companies do not "pay" taxes. they pass the tax expense onto the consumers. so when the corporate tax goes up, the price for a product at the store also increases. here in Michigan, total accumulated taxes on a product can ( in some cases) reach as high a 85% of the purchase price. with that in mind. the argument for a national "end user" sales tax becomes simple. if ( going by our current tax code) a product that costs $100, were to only have the end user sales tax imposed upon it. the price would then be $15 before the "end user" sales tax is imposed. once the end user sales tax is imposed the total cost of said product is $ 18.75. that is a total savings ( on the consumer, being you and me) of over 80%. and since it is imposed on all products, everybody pays taxes on what they consume. it would also allow those of us at or near the bottom of the income bracket to gain more value out of our fiat currency, as well as cut the cost of government by removing the bureaucratic processes involved in a more complicated tax code that focuses on taxing ones labor. that being said, property taxes would still need apply to those that hold property ( land). but that is for a federal tax system. local municipalities would still be able to levy their own taxes based on the needs of the community, which should go up to a vote by the community.

this would not only simplify the tax code but it would also remove the ability of some people from paying said taxes, and with the reduction of governmental resources, a reduction in governmental expenses would result. therefore the collected taxes can go to more necessary expenses other that paying unnecessary governmental employees.

and with the added capital in the hands of the people, that allows them to spend more, thus enriching the economy and creating more jobs. it also stretches the holding of the people that earn their holding through their labor, so that they may invest into other areas of the economy,, may that be tech, energy, medical, etc...

not only would it put more money in your hands, cut governmental spending in areas that are not necessary, but it would also give the government a revenue feedback loop. what i mean by this is that, the more money that is in the hands of the public, the more likely they are to spend it, the more they spend, the more taxes they pay ( but in proportion of what they consume), the more taxes they pay, the more revenue the government receives. and as people incur more wealth the government has more funds to pay for NECESSARY expenditures.

now for companies that do business overseas, a registry would need to be created so that there can be oversight over their total revenue and profits. this would be necessary because corporate revenue can vary greatly depending on what county that company is doing business with. and if a company wants to take jobs out of their country of origin then an additional tax should be imposed on the profits that were incurred outside of said country of origin.

P.S. it was my wife that first warned me of her mothers cooking skills or lack thereof.

P.P.S. yes, i want to be able to order a pizza using Noble

This reminds me of a really intriguing article that I read while back (maybe 3 years?). I don't recall the name of the article but if you have access to an academic database like JSTOR and query Global Supply Chains and Taxation, you'll likely find this article. The article discussed how all of the additional costs added onto a good that we buy at a shopping center or a mall is exasperated because of end on end of global supply chains that have to address domestic policies that impact the process.

Take buying a can of noodle soup from a store as an example. There are two supply chains: one for the food in it and one for the packaging of the food. Taking the food supply chain, we have the raw ingredients and then you have the noodles. The noodles are likely to be sourced from somewhere and has it's own supply chain. Then on top of the ingredients, you have the equipment to make the food, and those all have its own chain, and so forth and so forth. The article used an example a birthday card and I think it had over 200 chains. And they found that about 75% of the chains had non-domestic influences and these complexities made for a very interesting read.

[As a note, this article is coming from a U.S. perspective.]

[Hueristic]

A breaker went off today when my gf was vacuuming.... 2/3 rigs off for 7 hours fuuuuuuuuuu

TELL her to use a broom.

[miKnutty]

A breaker went off today when my gf was vacuuming.... 2/3 rigs off for 7 hours fuuuuuuuuuu

TELL her to use a broom.

if she trips the breaker again I'll let you know how that advice works out haha.

[susan234]

9bVNqSgKAzcsJix8ks4peLoL5T6TzDBaLT  THANKS !

[int3ractivodular]

A breaker went off today when my gf was vacuuming.... 2/3 rigs off for 7 hours fuuuuuuuuuu

TELL her to use a broom.

if she trips the breaker again I'll let you know how that advice works out haha.

Ah, the joys of mining in an apartment with terrible circuitry...

[ZBBBB]

A breaker went off today when my gf was vacuuming.... 2/3 rigs off for 7 hours fuuuuuuuuuu

TELL her to use a broom.

if she trips the breaker again I'll let you know how that advice works out haha.

Ah, the joys of mining in an apartment with terrible circuitry...

LoL. It never gets any better. More room more miners more circuits being blown

[liu405]

9gnYCTsThydYFZfxsM59WvY6r7u2HRAu3q

[siikfo]

should be interesting to see what the launch of the store does to the value of the coin.