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Author Topic: NobleCoin[NOBL] - 8% PoS | 1Yr+ | MARKETPLACE | PAY | GIFT | CHARITIES/MERCHANTS  (Read 1017071 times)
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June 27, 2014, 09:42:51 PM
 #7881

got a question...

what will happen if for a long time, a PoS coin inside the wallet will not be used? i mean, the owner intends to keep the coin as long as possible... does this benefits the owner, the community and the coin?

personally, on my understanding on the laws of economics, in order for a currency to gain value, it must be actively used... now, on my example above, the coin was just hibernating inside the wallet. it was not used as intended...

please share your thoughts... thanks...

Creating money out of thin air will reduce the value of money...debasement. - fiat money like nowadays.

Creating coins out of thin air will have the same effect as the created coins has nothing backing it, i.e POS - no mining. POW has mining so created coins has something backing it - holds it's value.

I disagree with you on this one for sure because your analysis completely ignores the changes that occur with the supply and demand of the coin.  Also there is no difference in what is "backing" the coin. In either scenario you have an amount of capital, whether physical or digital, that is being utilized to hash on the chain.

You have a right to disagree but i'm afraid you are totally wrong. Supply and demand is a market force phenomena to establish a price of a particular good and/or services. The creation of money supply has nothing to do with supply and demand. You need to understand classical economics, especially the work of Ludwig Mises. When a money supply is expanded, it creates inflation. Fiat money creates high inflation as it cost nearly nothing to produce. Money backed by gold has very low inflation because it cost money to get gold out of the ground. The difference between the cost and the selling price of gold is the expansion of money supply.

it's not just that. i sorely hold to any one economic idealogy. especially of those minds from the past. this is the 21st century, we have a more evolved society, and growing minds and cultures and behaviours have changed since those guys time. as much as some old fashioned idealogies may find some areas where they are still accurate today. i dont think that they can be and/or should be looked at as a universal way of seeing things for the rest of humanity's existence. situations change, behaviours change and what was once can no longer survive.

if only it was still so clear cut black and white. plus, as much as we may want to compare mining in the mines to virtual mining. it is my view simply that the value of a currency now, especially in crypto is determined by how many competing sellers there are and how low they are willing to go to extract a different currency for theirs(btc for nobl). basic supply and demand will not drive the value of the currency simply because investors will run out of investment capital and then what do you have to attract new investors??. as i can buy 2.5billion coins out of 3billion but the remaining 0.5billion still may contain undersellers who will push the price back down to the starting point because they didnt get to sell in the first place.. meaning i will continually have to buy to lift the price until i own all 3 billion coins. psychology plays a major role now as many people understand economics and capitalism to a greater extent than the average person did say 100 years ago.

but if noone sells in a market with 10billion coins and all u can find on the market are  .01 fractions to buy at say $3000/coin, then that really does not help the standard supply and demand model. the value of each coin would effectively be $3000, but because noone is selling down the price the demand was allowed to grow. but that doesnt mean there wasnt a large supply. so at the end of the day.. u have to give people something that they are willing to hold on to. very very few people will just buy and allow their investment value to shrink to 1/10 their buy in value without dumping the stock to rebuy lower or invest elsewhere like i have with ltc and doge.

i invested in ltc hoping for it to rise.. but instead it lost 50% value. i dumped it, invested in a coin and received 3 times my ltc value in btc much quicker than waiting for investors to accumulate and build ltc price. it was just the smart thing to do. now if i see fit, i can reacquire my ltc at no loss. but im seeing nothing from them to provide me that interest. so vericoin will now get ltc's investment.

in crypto supply and demand plays a little differently. what is being sent to exchanges is the supply. and what is being held in personal wallets is not. thus simply holding will create scarcity and force buyers to pay higher prices to utilize the services. it requires patience on the part of all investors. individuals who want noblecoin itself will mine it because that is what they want.. but multipools and asics may not have the same view. if users do not want to hold the coin and will continue to sell at sub 20 satoshi even after this coin has shown that investors are willing to pay upward of 200 satoshi then it is an indication that the coin is losing the race to daytraders and others who really dont care about it as earlier investors are pretty much filled up with all they need/want and there is nothing successfully attracting new investors to set the floor at 200satoshi.
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June 27, 2014, 10:19:48 PM
 #7882

While I appreciate your understanding of traditional economics, I mean no offence when I say this is crypto. we're talking about. Little is rational and the rules are different. RZR yesterday released a .PDF explaining their coin and outlined a goal to build a Road/Marketplace to secure themselves current hype and a near $1,000,000 market cap. Sound familiar? Inflation/maintenance/selling pressure for RZR PoW is 90-100BTC per day, we're now currently 1.2BTC/day.

Quote
POW has mining so created coins has something backing it - holds it's value.

We can't apply this to PoW whatsoever. PoW has costs (mining/tax), the coins are immediately sold and the value diminishes. We're the prime example of that. We've been in situations where the coin costs 1.5-2x the current price to mine, and our value continues to drop. With 51% attacks and PoW abuse, this value drops more. NOBL as PoW at this point is obviously not holding its value.

PoS provides more incentives to hold and build/increase investment. It doesn't have a tax/cost applied to it to create compared to PoW, and it removes the current external factors negatively affecting our price. The rich don't just get richer, everyone who holds gets richer. The stake % is universal, and we're free from the fears of mining/ASICs and miners dumping that has been a prime topic of this board for a long time. The potential for stake to be used positively by supporters (charity, giveaways, promotions, paying for development) which was gained without high electricity/mining gear costs is something to consider.

We truly just want NOBL in the hands of people who will hold, build & promote with us positively, politely and aggressively to the cryptocurrency scene and their friends/world at large. I feel like we've slipped into external debates over mining and technicals (though yes the debates are relatively polite & many people find them rewarding to follow), rather than focusing on uses, innovation, broader acceptance, projects, community building & promotion. I personally believe PoS is the best choice in the current cryptocurrency environment to resolve this so we can move forward.

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June 27, 2014, 10:33:52 PM
 #7883

got a question...

what will happen if for a long time, a PoS coin inside the wallet will not be used? i mean, the owner intends to keep the coin as long as possible... does this benefits the owner, the community and the coin?

personally, on my understanding on the laws of economics, in order for a currency to gain value, it must be actively used... now, on my example above, the coin was just hibernating inside the wallet. it was not used as intended...

please share your thoughts... thanks...

Creating money out of thin air will reduce the value of money...debasement. - fiat money like nowadays.

Creating coins out of thin air will have the same effect as the created coins has nothing backing it, i.e POS - no mining. POW has mining so created coins has something backing it - holds it's value.

I disagree with you on this one for sure because your analysis completely ignores the changes that occur with the supply and demand of the coin.  Also there is no difference in what is "backing" the coin. In either scenario you have an amount of capital, whether physical or digital, that is being utilized to hash on the chain.

You have a right to disagree but i'm afraid you are totally wrong. Supply and demand is a market force phenomena to establish a price of a particular good and/or services. The creation of money supply has nothing to do with supply and demand. You need to understand classical economics, especially the work of Ludwig Mises. When a money supply is expanded, it creates inflation. Fiat money creates high inflation as it cost nearly nothing to produce. Money backed by gold has very low inflation because it cost money to get gold out of the ground. The difference between the cost and the selling price of gold is the expansion of money supply.

Don't assume anything.  I have an undergraduate degree in economics from a "heterodox economics" university.  During which period I read the road to serfdom by Hayek and was exposed to many economic theories and studied history of economic doctrines as well as macroeconomics. And besides that, Mises isn't a classical economist, he is Austrian. Smith, Ricardo, et al are classical.

Anyways the point here isn't to debate who knows what about economic doctrines, because I am sure that we would agree on very little.  Instead I would like to take issue with this statement because it is totally wrong:
Quote
The creation of money supply has nothing to do with supply and demand.

First of all the creation of money in the case of crypto is the supply. So it is directly relevant. But instead of thinking of the money supply (the total number of coins), I think in terms of the coin supplied in the form of sell orders on the exchange. When a coin is proof of stake, and especially high rate PoS, coin sell orders are not plentiful because everyone takes their coins and stakes them rather then keeping them on the exchange. This will happen to NOBL and it will cause the price to be bid up.  I have seen it happen CAP when it went from 1% annual stake to 200%.  Look at the sell orders on TEK (500%).  There are plenty of examples of this.  And it really doesn't require any understanding of classical economics or austrian economics, it only requires knowledge of very very basic supply and demand charts.

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June 27, 2014, 10:39:28 PM
 #7884

glad to see you're starting to see things this way Rofo. i know it wouldve taken some overcoming of your own perspective to reach this point. the pos will indeed attract new investors and repeats. and we can also think about including anon transactions.

RAZR is gaining such large investment because many people believe in the tor network as a means of anonymity. i unfortunately dont share this view and prefer anon coins which stand on their own mixing and encryption of a transaction's source. basically razr coin's strength can be demolished over night if the tor network becomes compromised. which it already is to a great extent. just many people dont yet know it. anon is a standard now not a hype. together with POS and antiasic mining technologies just about any currency will do much better.

crypto exists for this same reason as anonymity. its the reason i dont know who half the users ohere on btct are, yet still they can pay me for services or make donations. but there are still ways to identify the owners of addresses. this is why anonymity has stretched into different areas of a coin's design. now we have

crypto - releases the need for personal details when performing transactions
ip anon - prevents addresses from being tracked to their  source ipaddress and thus, their internal network.
address mixing - make it even more difficult to find the source of a payment, see how much money is in it, know who the owner is by hacking his computer.. and/or monitoring his spending habits.

all these are basic requirements in the human right to privacy. and hence why they are also becoming a standard like POS.
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June 27, 2014, 11:17:07 PM
 #7885

Rofo and other devs,

In keeping a close eye on the markets over the past few months it would seem to me that the feature that is almost guaranteed to skyrocket a coin is anonymity features. This has been the case with quite a few coins lately and there seems to be a huge demand for this from traders and miners.

Maybe there would be a way to incorporate this into the upcoming fork?
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June 27, 2014, 11:32:07 PM
 #7886

Rofo and other devs,

In keeping a close eye on the markets over the past few months it would seem to me that the feature that is almost guaranteed to skyrocket a coin is anonymity features. This has been the case with quite a few coins lately and there seems to be a huge demand for this from traders and miners.

Maybe there would be a way to incorporate this into the upcoming fork?

I think there is huge demand for trustless anonymity probably at the protocol level that's verified independently by the best & proven to work. We haven't seen that yet, but when we do that can be seriously considered (unless it's a cryptonote). I'm more curious to see how VRC intends to implement full fiat & credit card functionality into their wallet with optional true anonymity. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on that one and see what they deliver in July.

However there are some big hurdles on the way for truly anonymous cryptocurrencies and if you want to play those long-term I'd be very sure it's something you're prepared to speculate on. The current market is mostly short-term speculative/manipulative/profit-taking. DRK's down 40% since the pressure began to consider true anonymity (that's not to badmouth DRK, we're all susceptible to trading).

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June 27, 2014, 11:46:22 PM
 #7887

full anonimity will never be accepted by any government or whatever. it is a false sense of 'security' that hardly anyone on these boards  actually needs. its just  few people screaming and the sheep following...
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June 28, 2014, 01:15:35 AM
 #7888

full anonimity will never be accepted by any government or whatever. it is a false sense of 'security' that hardly anyone on these boards  actually needs. its just  few people screaming and the sheep following...

this is true. however the goal is not really full anonymity as that may not be technically possible. but to make tracking more difficult to varying degrees. the more difficult/resource intensive it is to track/crack the higher value it has. it's notable innovation creating improvements on our standard business economics model. problems are meant to be solved, not avoided.
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June 28, 2014, 05:24:01 AM
 #7889

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_dSSyQ_b_o

   NOBLECOIN                 NobleCoin Marketplace Beta NOW LIVE!    

noblecoin: 9jgw7GbHzLQ2pRjpu7yWbP8VrShSxvG89F
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June 28, 2014, 08:40:22 AM
 #7890


Cool, is it yours or did you find it?
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June 28, 2014, 08:43:30 AM
 #7891


i was watching a video on bitcoin vs government, after that i checked out the video list and found that

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noblecoin: 9jgw7GbHzLQ2pRjpu7yWbP8VrShSxvG89F
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June 28, 2014, 08:59:43 AM
 #7892

at the moment i'm watching/ listening to of his destruction of a republic part 2


it's interesting, but kinda hard to follow at times

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noblecoin: 9jgw7GbHzLQ2pRjpu7yWbP8VrShSxvG89F
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June 28, 2014, 02:15:30 PM
 #7893


Interesting video to listen to, it really makes you appreciate all the work that everyone has put into NobleCoin and the honesty and integrity of the NOBL community.

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June 28, 2014, 02:57:48 PM
 #7894



0% fee - +5% and 10% shop discount - nothing less!

Since day one - your pool #1

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June 28, 2014, 02:57:57 PM
 #7895

Wallet does not sync.

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June 28, 2014, 03:02:41 PM
 #7896

Wallet does not sync.

addnode=nobl.poolerino.com
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June 28, 2014, 04:22:27 PM
 #7897


Interesting video to listen to, it really makes you appreciate all the work that everyone has put into NobleCoin and the honesty and integrity of the NOBL community.


to be honest, i saw the video then posted the link before i watched it. i thought it was going to be similar to the other noblecoin videos.

it was not what i was expecting.

   NOBLECOIN                 NobleCoin Marketplace Beta NOW LIVE!    

noblecoin: 9jgw7GbHzLQ2pRjpu7yWbP8VrShSxvG89F
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June 28, 2014, 05:55:38 PM
 #7898

got a question...

what will happen if for a long time, a PoS coin inside the wallet will not be used? i mean, the owner intends to keep the coin as long as possible... does this benefits the owner, the community and the coin?

personally, on my understanding on the laws of economics, in order for a currency to gain value, it must be actively used... now, on my example above, the coin was just hibernating inside the wallet. it was not used as intended...

please share your thoughts... thanks...

Creating money out of thin air will reduce the value of money...debasement. - fiat money like nowadays.

Creating coins out of thin air will have the same effect as the created coins has nothing backing it, i.e POS - no mining. POW has mining so created coins has something backing it - holds it's value.

I disagree with you on this one for sure because your analysis completely ignores the changes that occur with the supply and demand of the coin.  Also there is no difference in what is "backing" the coin. In either scenario you have an amount of capital, whether physical or digital, that is being utilized to hash on the chain.

You have a right to disagree but i'm afraid you are totally wrong. Supply and demand is a market force phenomena to establish a price of a particular good and/or services. The creation of money supply has nothing to do with supply and demand. You need to understand classical economics, especially the work of Ludwig Mises. When a money supply is expanded, it creates inflation. Fiat money creates high inflation as it cost nearly nothing to produce. Money backed by gold has very low inflation because it cost money to get gold out of the ground. The difference between the cost and the selling price of gold is the expansion of money supply.

it's not just that. i sorely hold to any one economic idealogy. especially of those minds from the past. this is the 21st century, we have a more evolved society, and growing minds and cultures and behaviours have changed since those guys time. as much as some old fashioned idealogies may find some areas where they are still accurate today. i dont think that they can be and/or should be looked at as a universal way of seeing things for the rest of humanity's existence. situations change, behaviours change and what was once can no longer survive.

if only it was still so clear cut black and white. plus, as much as we may want to compare mining in the mines to virtual mining. it is my view simply that the value of a currency now, especially in crypto is determined by how many competing sellers there are and how low they are willing to go to extract a different currency for theirs(btc for nobl). basic supply and demand will not drive the value of the currency simply because investors will run out of investment capital and then what do you have to attract new investors??. as i can buy 2.5billion coins out of 3billion but the remaining 0.5billion still may contain undersellers who will push the price back down to the starting point because they didnt get to sell in the first place.. meaning i will continually have to buy to lift the price until i own all 3 billion coins. psychology plays a major role now as many people understand economics and capitalism to a greater extent than the average person did say 100 years ago.

but if noone sells in a market with 10billion coins and all u can find on the market are  .01 fractions to buy at say $3000/coin, then that really does not help the standard supply and demand model. the value of each coin would effectively be $3000, but because noone is selling down the price the demand was allowed to grow. but that doesnt mean there wasnt a large supply. so at the end of the day.. u have to give people something that they are willing to hold on to. very very few people will just buy and allow their investment value to shrink to 1/10 their buy in value without dumping the stock to rebuy lower or invest elsewhere like i have with ltc and doge.

i invested in ltc hoping for it to rise.. but instead it lost 50% value. i dumped it, invested in a coin and received 3 times my ltc value in btc much quicker than waiting for investors to accumulate and build ltc price. it was just the smart thing to do. now if i see fit, i can reacquire my ltc at no loss. but im seeing nothing from them to provide me that interest. so vericoin will now get ltc's investment.

in crypto supply and demand plays a little differently. what is being sent to exchanges is the supply. and what is being held in personal wallets is not. thus simply holding will create scarcity and force buyers to pay higher prices to utilize the services. it requires patience on the part of all investors. individuals who want noblecoin itself will mine it because that is what they want.. but multipools and asics may not have the same view. if users do not want to hold the coin and will continue to sell at sub 20 satoshi even after this coin has shown that investors are willing to pay upward of 200 satoshi then it is an indication that the coin is losing the race to daytraders and others who really dont care about it as earlier investors are pretty much filled up with all they need/want and there is nothing successfully attracting new investors to set the floor at 200satoshi.

In understanding Austrian theory of money supply, one must follow the law of cause and effect. If i put a paper in a fire it will burn. DO you think just because we are in the 21st century the law of cause and effect will change so that paper in a fire no longer burns. Perhaps you think the law of gravity no longer applies.

Why would investors invest in a coin? Depends on their own subjective value and what they can do with it. Each to their own. Unfortunately most people (95%) are here to mine, trade, dump, etc...for BTC. Noblecoin has to do it different by creating a marketplace so it can compete with Bitcoin. So far so good. The coins mined will have a certain value backed by the cost of mining. What is backing POS coins?.....nothing. Supply and demand does not play differently for each goods and services. It is the same for all, but the numbers regarding supply/demand/price are different.

What is sent to the exchanges is supply and what is being held in wallets is also supply. If you go into a shop to buy a TV and you will see 1 TV on display for each model. Does that mean the supply of TV is 1 and the price will rise because of scarcity of TV. NO NO NO. Everyone knows that more TVs are held in the warehouse. Shop = exchanges.....warehouse = wallet. Do not think that just because there are 1000 TVs in a warehouse means the supply is 1. Same goes for the amount of coins in the wallets - they are also supply. If the price do rise because there isn't enough coins in exchanges, nothing can stop people from transfer coins and dumping....causing a chain reaction where price will fall and buy again and keep the profit in BTC. Hence P&D.

The production of noblecoin is at 7,200,000 per day and now there will be up to 14,400,000 per day in POS. Good luck with that.

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........What is C?.........
..............
...........ICO            Dec 1st – Dec 30th............
       ............Open            Dec 1st- Dec 30th............
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June 28, 2014, 06:06:34 PM
 #7899

but the difference here is that coins generated by POS are MUCH more likely to be held and not dumped as holders are holding to realise on the POS!!!Miners on the other hand, 90% will dump outright. Investors, especially in a coin like NOBL hold a different mindset to miners!!

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June 28, 2014, 06:10:29 PM
 #7900

While I appreciate your understanding of traditional economics, I mean no offence when I say this is crypto. we're talking about. Little is rational and the rules are different. RZR yesterday released a .PDF explaining their coin and outlined a goal to build a Road/Marketplace to secure themselves current hype and a near $1,000,000 market cap. Sound familiar? Inflation/maintenance/selling pressure for RZR PoW is 90-100BTC per day, we're now currently 1.2BTC/day.

Quote
POW has mining so created coins has something backing it - holds it's value.

We can't apply this to PoW whatsoever. PoW has costs (mining/tax), the coins are immediately sold and the value diminishes. We're the prime example of that. We've been in situations where the coin costs 1.5-2x the current price to mine, and our value continues to drop. With 51% attacks and PoW abuse, this value drops more. NOBL as PoW at this point is obviously not holding its value.

PoS provides more incentives to hold and build/increase investment. It doesn't have a tax/cost applied to it to create compared to PoW, and it removes the current external factors negatively affecting our price. The rich don't just get richer, everyone who holds gets richer. The stake % is universal, and we're free from the fears of mining/ASICs and miners dumping that has been a prime topic of this board for a long time. The potential for stake to be used positively by supporters (charity, giveaways, promotions, paying for development) which was gained without high electricity/mining gear costs is something to consider.

We truly just want NOBL in the hands of people who will hold, build & promote with us positively, politely and aggressively to the cryptocurrency scene and their friends/world at large. I feel like we've slipped into external debates over mining and technicals (though yes the debates are relatively polite & many people find them rewarding to follow), rather than focusing on uses, innovation, broader acceptance, projects, community building & promotion. I personally believe PoS is the best choice in the current cryptocurrency environment to resolve this so we can move forward.

I can understand the problems with 51% attacks and do sympathise. Surely there has to be a better solution. May require creating something new, like POS was new at the time and the currently anon fad is new. But creating a max of 14,400,000 POS per day is way too much.

..C..
.....................
........What is C?.........
..............
...........ICO            Dec 1st – Dec 30th............
       ............Open            Dec 1st- Dec 30th............
...................ANN thread      Bounty....................

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