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Author Topic: Exchange accidentally sent 512 bitcoins after coding error  (Read 32360 times)
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September 02, 2011, 06:44:21 PM
 #101

it's pointless arguing with people who are illogical


I'm not illogical, just practical. A fool and his money are soon parted. Remember that.
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September 02, 2011, 06:44:54 PM
 #102

From the OP, someone defending the receiver of the btc.

Quote
[04:53] <@Geebus> Not to split hairs, but Bitcoins are not a recognized currency in any country, and therefore hold no monetary value... I digress though.

That is their opinion. It is not the opinion of everyone. Of course they have value or nobody would waste all the time and electricity required to mine for them. Would you spend the money on the hardware to build a massive bitcoin mining operation if they had no value?
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September 02, 2011, 06:45:59 PM
 #103

From the OP, someone defending the receiver of the btc.

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[04:53] <@Geebus> Not to split hairs, but Bitcoins are not a recognized currency in any country, and therefore hold no monetary value... I digress though.

That is their opinion. It is not the opinion of everyone.

Yeah I guess it depends on whether it benefits you at the moment, or not. 

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September 02, 2011, 06:47:32 PM
 #104

From the OP, someone defending the receiver of the btc.

Quote
[04:53] <@Geebus> Not to split hairs, but Bitcoins are not a recognized currency in any country, and therefore hold no monetary value... I digress though.

That is their opinion. It is not the opinion of everyone.

Yeah I guess it depends on whether it benefits you at the moment, or not.  

Wrong. bitcoins have value whether it benefits me to say they do or not. If they had no value nobody would buy them or mine them. The fact they have value, as shown on the bid sheets at the exchanges makes them treasure trove and up for grabs. Look at the bid sheets the same as you look at gold and silver charts. If gold is treasure, then so are bitcoins.
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September 02, 2011, 06:55:39 PM
 #105

From the OP, someone defending the receiver of the btc.

Quote
[04:53] <@Geebus> Not to split hairs, but Bitcoins are not a recognized currency in any country, and therefore hold no monetary value... I digress though.

That is their opinion. It is not the opinion of everyone.

Yeah I guess it depends on whether it benefits you at the moment, or not.  

Wrong. bitcoins have value whether it benefits me to say they do or not. If they had no value nobody would buy them or mine them. The fact they have value, as shown on the bid sheets at the exchanges makes them treasure trove and up for grabs. Look at the bid sheets the same as you look at gold and silver charts. If gold is treasure, then so are bitcoins.

But nobody is buying them, look how low the volume is (especially considering most of those are miners looking to recuperate their costs of "producing" the coins) and how the price of btc has been doing nothing but going down since the media blitz.  

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September 02, 2011, 06:58:56 PM
 #106

If someone drops a $50 bill on the street and I come along after they are gone and pick it up, it is mine. It is not stolen. It is lost. I am not liable for the other person losing their $50.

What? Really? You'd do that? You'd not be like: "hey, you lost 50 bucks".

Man, look up Karma, you poor soul.

Please read and comprehend. I said if I came along after they had gone. If I do not witness the loss of the money, how can I return it?
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September 02, 2011, 07:35:16 PM
 #107

it's pointless arguing with people who are illogical
Pot, meet kettle.


I would definitely give the BTC back, but only after refusing and forcing the "exchange" to cry publicly about their own gross incompetence for a while.  Just giving it back lets them off the hook too easily.  Not knowing what the fuck you're doing while handling other people's money should have repercussions.


Or just give back 49% of them.
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September 02, 2011, 07:51:03 PM
 #108

We live in a society where the burden of proof is on the accuser. The loser of the item must prove that it is his. It is not the burden of the finder to prove that it isn't. In the absence of proof, the person who loses the item also loses the case. In this case the block chain proves the ownership of the bitcoins to be whoever is in possession at the moment.

Civilized people know if an item is not theirs, it belongs to someone else...just saying. And if they see an ipod in a car with the owner around, they dont see the item as lost, ready for a smash and grab....you being a bit more aggresive, would probably take the car as well thinking 'I dont know whose this is either, so its mine now'.
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September 02, 2011, 08:12:44 PM
 #109

If you SEND bitcoins to someone you can't expect him to give them back...
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September 02, 2011, 08:48:50 PM
 #110

Dude probably could have recovered a portion if he didn't try to strong-arm the guy infront of other people.

"Please"

"Finders Fee"

"How can we work this out"

I didn't see any of those approaches.

Edit: I did see a lot of

"Theif"

"Calling the Police"

"Felony charges".


When dude tried strong-arming infront of others, other dude naturally felt compelled not to appear 'weak'.

I had previously been amicable in email and received no response.

It was already clear to me at this point that he was acting in bad faith, the strong arm approach was basically the last effort before contacting local authorities.
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September 02, 2011, 09:03:45 PM
 #111


I had previously been amicable in email and received no response.

It was already clear to me at this point that he was acting in bad faith, the strong arm approach was basically the last effort before contacting local authorities.

Ahh, I was unaware of this.  That makes the guy even more scummy.

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September 02, 2011, 09:08:21 PM
 #112

I confirm that this is authentic.

It starts with:

Quote
* phantomcircuit (~phantomci@109.75.183.105) has joined #bitcoinpool
<phantomcircuit> BenDavis, lovely morning isn't it
<phantomcircuit> i see you really like your guns
<phantomcircuit> if you want to keep them i suggest working with us
<Geebus> This is not a discussion for the BitcoinPool chatroom.
* wtfmate1 has joined #bitcoinpool
<wtfmate1> mornin
<BenDavis> mornin
* ChanServ gives channel operator status to Geebus
<phantomcircuit> BenDavis, you going to ignore me?
<wtfmate1> looks like we r still in a long round
<phantomcircuit> Geebus, you're his friend right
<phantomcircuit> your server is hosted on residential ISP in the same area
<Geebus> I run BitcoinPool
<wtfmate1> hope it is not loong before we find block
<Geebus> We're from the same area I believe, if thats what you're asking.
<phantomcircuit> Geebus, i would suggest not working with him anymore
<BenDavis> Why is that, Patrick?
<phantomcircuit> yes
<phantomcircuit> you owe me 511 btc
<phantomcircuit> i strongly suggest you send it back
<Geebus> Wait, you sent him 511 BTC?

and continues with (also see bottom):

IRC CHAT LOG


Quote
[04:50] <phantomcircuit> you owe me 511 btc
[04:50] <phantomcircuit> i strongly suggest you send it back
[04:50] <@Geebus> Wait, you sent him 511 BTC?
[04:51] <phantomcircuit> a flaw in our withdrawal script resulted in 512 1 btc payments
[04:51] <@BenDavis> How was your tea this morning?
[04:51] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, i dont drink tea
[04:51] <wtfmate1> I WANT 511 BITCOINS!!
[04:51] <@BenDavis> me too!!!
[04:51] <wtfmate1> send me bitcoins
[04:52] <@Geebus> So... you sent it? ...like, initiated a transaction to him?
[04:52] <wtfmate1> how do I get 511 bitcoins??
[04:52] <@Geebus> Or did he steal them?
[04:52] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, just an fyi spending funds which were erroneously sent to you is legally the same as simple theft
[04:52] <phantomcircuit> so congratulations you've committed a class b felony
[04:52] <@BenDavis> I beg to differ Patrick
[04:52] <@BenDavis> But I don't know what you are talking about!
[04:53] <@BenDavis> Feel free to send me some BTC if you want.
[04:53] <phantomcircuit> stop lying
[04:53] <phantomcircuit> i know who you are
[04:53] <@Geebus> Not to split hairs, but Bitcoins are not a recognized currency in any country, and therefore hold no monetary value... I digress though.
[04:53] <wtfmate1> what did i miss out on? oh man...i want some free bitcoins
[04:53] <@BenDavis> I could really use some free BTC too!
[04:53] <wtfmate1> can you send me free bitcoin patrick?  I will be your BFF
[04:53] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, it's irrelevant he sold them immediately thus locking in the valuation at > 1k usd
[04:53] <@Geebus> I'll send you a few bitcents wtfmate1...
[04:53] <phantomcircuit> which makes it a serious felony
[04:53] <wtfmate1> not if you give them to me
[04:53] <@Geebus> They had 0 value at the time you transferred them
[04:53] <wtfmate1> Smiley
[04:54] <@BenDavis> Patrick Strateman, I have no clue what you are talking about.
[04:54] <@BenDavis> I don't even mine for coins.
[04:54] <@Geebus> Once ownership (i.e. posession) changes, the value he sells them at is irrelevant.
[04:54] <phantomcircuit> yeah cool you have my name
[04:54] <phantomcircuit> amazing
[04:54] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, i was trying to go about this reasonably
[04:54] <@Geebus> Bitcoin is a one-way system. Once you send them, you release ownership.
[04:55] <phantomcircuit> clearly you have no intention of doing so
[04:55] <@BenDavis> I have no clue what you are talking about!
[04:55] <@Geebus> Had he stolen your wallet.dat or something, that would be different.
[04:55] <@BenDavis> I will take some free BTC tho.  How do I do that?
[04:55] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, now you're just lying
[04:55] <@BenDavis> Maybe Donald can rub your back for you?
[04:55] <@BenDavis> Make you feel better?
[04:55] <@BenDavis> Or Amir can get you some tea?
[04:56] <@BenDavis> Hey I got a better idea.  Since you know where I am ... why don't you come meet me personally?
[04:56] <phantomcircuit> oh i will
[04:56] <@BenDavis> Sweet!  I can't wait to meet you!
[04:56] <phantomcircuit> ill tell your kids how daddy is a thief
[04:57] <phantomcircuit> all about how daddy likes to take things that aren't his
[04:57] <@Geebus> Objection your Honor... Plaintiff is suggesting the act of receiving a transfer initiated by themselves makes the defendant a "theif."
[04:57] <@Geebus> Receiving is a very different thing than taking.
[04:57] <@Geebus> Taking implies force.
[04:57] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, no that alone would not, acting in bad faith once it was clear they were not his
[04:57] <phantomcircuit> however does
[04:57] <@BenDavis> Yeah, I do not believe I took anything.
[04:58] <@BenDavis> Can you tell me how I took anything?
[04:58] <@BenDavis> lmfao
[04:58] <@Geebus> Bad faith is a moral or ethical dilemma, not a legal matter.
[04:58] <phantomcircuit> sigh
[04:58] <@BenDavis> Patrick, so how is the weather in Europe today?
[04:58] <wtfmate1> sounds like phantomcircuit screwed up and set free bitcoins?? did I get this right??
[04:58] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, so what you're saying is that you're refusing to act amicably to resolve this
[04:58] <@Geebus> If it's any consolation, I'm sure he'll go to hell.
[04:58] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, yes
[04:58] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, shitty
[04:58] <wtfmate1> cool, send me some then
[04:59] <wtfmate1> Smiley
[04:59] <wtfmate1> 1J5PZukyLapvbLUUjhvV3MCyQWg3e6pRW8
[04:59] <phantomcircuit> to be clear they were not free
[04:59] <wtfmate1> they are if you send them to me
[04:59] <wtfmate1> Smiley
[04:59] <@BenDavis> Can you send that address some BTC?
[05:00] <@Geebus> did you have a prearranged contract negotiating an exchange of goods or services for the BTC?
[05:00] <@Geebus> ...otherwise, they were free.
[05:00] <@BenDavis> So when are you going to fly over here from Europe and meet me?
[05:01] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, in about a month ill be there anyways
[05:01] <@BenDavis> Sweet bro.
[05:01] <@BenDavis> Can't wait to shake your hand.
[05:01] <@Geebus> Well, I can't say "free"... I'm sure you had to pay some tx fees on a 511 btc transfer...
[05:01] <phantomcircuit> yeah im sure you'll be super excited when they put you in cuffs!
[05:01] <@BenDavis> Oh I can't wait man!
[05:01] <@Geebus> Who is "they
[05:01] <@Geebus> ?
[05:01] <phantomcircuit> the police
[05:01] <@BenDavis> Some secret Euro police team that governs BTC lmfao
[05:02] <phantomcircuit> he committed a serious crime
[05:02] <@Geebus> Like, state police?
[05:02] <wtfmate1> if he did not steal them, then will never hear from the police.
[05:02] <@BenDavis> Really?  What crime?
[05:02] <@BenDavis> I think you just fucked up
[05:02] <@BenDavis> and are pissed
[05:02] <@BenDavis> and trying to scare me
[05:02] <@BenDavis> but I tell you this
[05:02] <@BenDavis> I am no punk Smiley
[05:02] <wtfmate1> sounds like you messed up phantomcircuit.  what went wrong?
[05:02] <@BenDavis> so you fucked up bro!
[05:02] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, i messed up
[05:02] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, yeha i can see that
[05:02] <wtfmate1> how?
[05:02] <@Geebus> ...because, as an international matter, no state jurisdiction would be capable of taking the case, nor would you be able to file a police report or charges against him without being a legal resident of the US, or without having the legal representation of an embassy residing therein.
[05:02] <wtfmate1> how do you accidently send 511 btc?Huh
[05:03] <@BenDavis> My question is ... what the fuck were you doing when you sent that on accidemt?
[05:03] <@BenDavis> What on earth were you doing lol
[05:03] <@BenDavis> Trying to figure out a way to fuck someone over and it bit you in the ass?
[05:03] <phantomcircuit> it's automated there was a bug
[05:03] <@BenDavis> woops, get a new coder
[05:03] <@BenDavis> fire Amir
[05:03] <@BenDavis> Kinda looks like you should be mad at Amir
[05:04] <wtfmate1> how do you have 511 btc though?
[05:04] <@Geebus> I'll admit, my own code fuck ups on this pool have cost me a few hundred bitcoins... not a single one that I got back.
[05:04] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, did you know who you sent it to?
[05:04] <@Geebus> Of course I did.
[05:04] <Optonic> Geebus: hah! you got a single one back Tongue
[05:05] <@Geebus> Optonic: Thats right, lol
[05:05] <@Geebus> Optonic: Thanks for reminding me. I appreciate it.
[05:05] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, so i see you dont think youv'e committed a crime
[05:05] <wtfmate1> phantomcircuit, how did you have 511 btc?  Did you mine them?
[05:05] <phantomcircuit> lets say i was to buy something online and i live next to you
[05:05] <phantomcircuit> but i mess up
[05:05] <phantomcircuit> and i send it to you
[05:05] <phantomcircuit> is this now yours?
[05:05] <phantomcircuit> (hint the answer is no)
[05:05] <@BenDavis> How did you get 511 BTC ?
[05:06] <phantomcircuit> i think you know
[05:06] <@BenDavis> no i dont
[05:06] <phantomcircuit> i think you do
[05:06] <@BenDavis> surecock
[05:06] <@BenDavis> answer the question
[05:06] <phantomcircuit> obviously it's other peoples
[05:07] <wtfmate1> do you run a pool?
[05:08] <phantomcircuit> no an exchange
[05:08] <wtfmate1> which one?
[05:08] <wtfmate1> tradehill or gox?
[05:08] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, so to recap, you dont believe you are legally obliged to return the funds, you will not return the funds, you dont even feel bad about keeping them?
[05:08] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, neither
[05:09] <wtfmate1> which one then?
[05:09] <phantomcircuit> intersango.com
[05:10] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, you know we've accidentally sent people funds in the past and you've the only person who has ever refused to send them back
[05:10] <@Geebus> I'm not asking to be defensive of him, but out of curiosity. What legal basis is there for returning something that was sent to you without any prevocation?
[05:10] <@Geebus> I'd personally like to know for some of my own errors I've tried to legally pursue in the past, as I've been told that there is none.
[05:11] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, it depends on whether you could reasonably return the goods, if you find $5 on the sidewalk you cant be reasonably expected to figure out whose $5 it was, but if the bank (or anybody else) sends you money for no reason you are obliged to send it back
[05:11] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, i believe this is a pretty clear case of the latter
[05:11] <wtfmate1> phontomcircuit, so you have about 155 btc worth of trades right now on your exchange?
[05:12] <@Geebus> But you're not a registered financial institution are you? I had some problems with the Australian Federal Police in regard to a similar situation.
[05:12] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, we just migrated to a new version, unfortunately the openid login system we were using in the past cannot be trivially migrated, so most of our users (and trades) are not yet being displayed
[05:13] <wtfmate1> and your code messed up and sent 511 btc to BenDavis?
[05:13] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, the laws on this vary by country, but in the us it is very clear that if you receive something out of the blue without expecting it you have no duty to try and return it but you do have a duty to not spend it
[05:13] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, the irony here being that it did so in an attempt to be robust
[05:13] <Optonic> code messing up itself is an interesting matter btw Smiley
[05:13] <@Geebus> So, you can keep it, but not spend it?
[05:14] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, you have an obligation to return it if the original sender makes it clear it was a mistake
[05:14] <phantomcircuit> which i believe i have
[05:14] <wtfmate1> phantomcircuit: that sucks
[05:14] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, seriously class b felony
[05:15] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, fuck the felony part
[05:15] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, just dont be a dick
[05:15] <phantomcircuit> it's not even our bitcoins
[05:16] <phantomcircuit> it's not like we're some fucking huge bank or something
[05:16] <Optonic> I already see a headline "blabla exchange loses 511 btc on accident" - I don't think users will like this. keep it under the carpet, dude.
[05:16] <@Geebus> I'm googling it, but I can't seem to find any law regarding the accidental transfer of ownership
[05:17] <@Geebus> In the US or any other country for that matter.
[05:18] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vtmiMvqow4UJ:www.leg.state.or.us/ors/164.html+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk
[05:18] <phantomcircuit> A person commits theft when, with intent to deprive another of property or to appropriate property to the person or to a third person, the person:
[05:18] <phantomcircuit>       (1) Takes, appropriates, obtains or withholds such property from an owner thereof;
[05:19] <phantomcircuit> it is not his property
[05:19] <phantomcircuit> it is our property
[05:19] <phantomcircuit> he is merely in possession of it
[05:19] <@BenDavis> lmfao
[05:19] <@BenDavis> possession is 9\10ths the law they say
[05:19] <@Geebus> Here is the description of a transaction according to the Bitcoin FAQ: "Eve cannot change who the coins belong to by replacing Bob’s public key with her public key, because Alice signed the transfer to Bob using her private key, declaring that the coins which belonged to her now belong to Bob, and Alice's private key is kept secret from Eve. So if Charley accepts that the original coin was in the hands of Alice he will also accep
[05:19] <@Geebus> It clearly defines a transfer of ownership.
[05:20] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, the other 1/10th is proof that it was a mistaken payment
[05:20] <wtfmate1> wait, "05:15] <phantomcircuit> it's not even our bitcoins" .......... so if you don't own them, and you sent them to him on accident, it's still not "your" property.  You just contradicted yourself.
[05:20] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, we act as agent for other people
[05:20] <@BenDavis> Good point there ... you don't even own them.  They are NOT yours.  So I guess all those poor souls who you LOST their money, are going to have to file the police report.
[05:20] <@BenDavis> Because they are NOT yours.
[05:21] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, look forget whether it's illegal or
[05:21] <phantomcircuit> not
[05:21] <@Geebus> IRC is logged dude, I wouldn't have come in here and said that.
[05:21] <wtfmate1> phantomcircuit:  Are you solvent now?
[05:21] <phantomcircuit> do you really want to be that guy with your name and all your info out there saying you stole 511 BTC?
[05:21] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, yes
[05:21] <@BenDavis> oh believe me... I am copying this entire discussion
[05:21] <@Geebus> Technically, you threathened him physically, which *IS* against US federal law
[05:21] <wtfmate1> OUT OF BUSINESS?
[05:21] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, i never threatened him
[05:21] <phantomcircuit> ever
[05:22] <@BenDavis> You are just mad because your Exchange is going to go OUT OF BUSINESS now ... and you are trying desperately to get your BTC back
[05:22] <phantomcircuit> i said id some see him
[05:22] <phantomcircuit> come*
[05:22] <@Geebus> <phantomcircuit> i see you really like your guns [04:47] <phantomcircuit> if you want to keep them i suggest working with us
[05:22] <@BenDavis> But ... I do not know what you are talking about ... I never got any coins
[05:22] <wtfmate1> so you don't have the bitcoins to cover what people gave you?
[05:22] <phantomcircuit> we wont be going out of business over 5k usd
[05:22] <@Geebus> You threatened him with injury to his person or personal affects.
[05:22] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, yes felons are not allowed to have firearms
[05:23] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, we do
[05:23] <wtfmate1> but you just said you were solvent?  so which is it?  Why do you keep contradicting yourself?
[05:23] <@BenDavis> He is scared
[05:23] <@BenDavis> And thinks he can scare me
[05:23] <@Geebus> Bitcoin is designed to be an irreversible transaction system.
[05:24] <@Geebus> There is a point in which you have to accept that you're probably not going to get back whatever you sent, and you need to move on. Trust me, I know.
[05:24] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, solvent means we have enough funds
[05:24] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, you're thinking of insolvent
[05:25] <wtfmate1> ah yes, you r right
[05:25] <wtfmate1> so you arent out of business over this?
[05:25] <phantomcircuit> no
[05:26] <wtfmate1> you r lucky then
[05:26] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, at the very least dont you just feell kind of like a dick
[05:26] <wtfmate1> still, sucks you messed up.
[05:26] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, did you like my email btw?
[05:26] <Optonic> phantomcircuit: what was the name of your exchange again? I have to put this one on my personal black list Smiley
[05:26] <@BenDavis> Patrick, yes bro, I did get a good lauch outta that LOL that was pretty cool
[05:26] <@BenDavis> the Indiana Jones thing
[05:27] <@BenDavis> laugh*
[05:28] <wtfmate1> phantomcircuit: how many bitcoins do you have left after that accident?
[05:29] <@Geebus> Didn't the FBI say during all the MyBitcoin stuff that people were basically just fucked that they lost a bunch of intangible data that holds no value in the eyes of the government?
[05:29] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, im about to do an offline backup ill show you...
[05:29] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, what makes this different is that he immediately sold them, thus proving their value
[05:29] <phantomcircuit> ironic no?
[05:30] <@Geebus> He proved they had a value AFTER you transferred ownership to him
[05:30] <@Geebus> Not at the time they were transferred.
[05:30] <@Geebus> Bitcoin is a one-way system.
[05:30] <phantomcircuit> times close enough that it's irrelevant
[05:31] <@Geebus> The relevant point is that you transferred ownership
[05:31] <@Geebus> Not the value.
[05:31] <@Geebus> If I give someone a car and they immediately turn around and sell it, I can't do anything about it.
[05:31] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, i have absolutely no doubt that he has committed a crime, but honestly i dont give a shit i just want them back
[05:32] <@BenDavis> What is the crime again?
[05:32] <wtfmate1> I'm not sure which is worse...getting your bitcoins hacked/stolen, or accidentally sending them to a random address
[05:32] <wtfmate1> lol
[05:32] <@BenDavis> LOL
[05:32] <@Geebus> If I gave someone a car, legally transferred ownership to them and then asked for it back, they can tell me to fuck off. Legally.
[05:32] <wtfmate1> that totally blows for phantomcircuit
[05:32] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, it's theft btw
[05:33] <@BenDavis> Actually Patrick...
[05:33] <@Geebus> Theft - the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.
[05:33] <wtfmate1> but sounds like you have the btc to coverup your mistake
[05:33] <@BenDavis> Technically YOU are the theif
[05:33] <@Geebus> He "took" nothing.
[05:33] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, there was no legal transfer
[05:33] <@BenDavis> because you gave away someone elses BTC without their permission
[05:33] <@BenDavis> so who is the theif?
[05:33] <@Geebus> You initiated a transaction in the network to him, correct? ...he did not steal your wallet.dat?
[05:33] <@BenDavis> There was no illegal transfer either
[05:33] <wtfmate1> if your code messed up, that's a costly mistake or leason learned the hard way.
[05:33] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, impressive rationalization
[05:34] <@BenDavis> I know right, Patrick?  Sometimes I surprise myself
[05:34] <@BenDavis> Cuz technically, they are NOT your coins, correct?
[05:34] <wtfmate1> phantomcircuit: you already admitted your code messed up, so that's on you....not him.
[05:34] <@BenDavis> Please answer yes or no.
[05:34] <wtfmate1> your bad
[05:34] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, we're an agent
[05:34] <phantomcircuit> so the answer isn't yes or no
[05:34] <@BenDavis> Are they YOUR coins, yes or no.
[05:34] <@Geebus> By that definition, our users have stolen 26200 bitcoins from us through transactions we have sent to them.
[05:34] <@BenDavis> the answer is NO.
[05:35] <@BenDavis> So.  You sending them when they are not yours... makes YOU the thief.
[05:35] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, no you meant to send them the vast majority of those
[05:35] <wtfmate1> as I understand bitcoin, phantomcircuit's code had to have initiated the transfer...which makes it his mistake, not bendavis's mistake.
[05:35] <@Geebus> So, you are trying to prove intent?
[05:35] <wtfmate1> sounds like bendavis got reallly lucky
[05:35] <wtfmate1> because phantomcircuits code fucked up
[05:36] <wtfmate1> whooops
[05:36] <wtfmate1> I bet that will never happen again.
[05:36] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, intent in this matter is crystal clear
[05:36] <@Geebus> Rationally speaking, since I assume you didn't realize you were sending them until the point in which you stopped, one could argue that you didn't intend for him to receive them until he had received more than required.
[05:36] <wtfmate1> yes, you messed up and sent bitcoins.
[05:36] <@Geebus> Therefore, intent was established after they were sent, and not before.
[05:37] <wtfmate1> I dont think I will be using intersango.com ever unless they send me free bitcoins.
[05:37] <@BenDavis> lol
[05:37] <wtfmate1> that's a good way to get new users....lol
[05:37] <phantomcircuit> sigh
[05:37] <wtfmate1> we should post this on the bitcointalk.org site and see what others think
[05:38] <wtfmate1> watch the lulz catz start appearing


Continues with:
Quote
[14:38] <wtfmate1> we should post this on the bitcointalk.org site and see what others think
[14:38] <Geebus> I'm not trying to knock you down here dude... I'm just letting you know, I've been through all of this and wasted a lot of time and money trying to pursue legal matters regarding bitcoin, and it goes no where.
[14:38] <BenDavis> I agree with that atfmate1
[14:38] <wtfmate1> watch the lulz catz start appearing
[14:39] <BenDavis> "uups, I dun sent mah BTC to somezonez, an dey wasntz minez!!!!"
[14:39] <wtfmate1> 511 btc is enough to put a small startup out of business
[14:40] <Geebus> if you had ANY user send you back BTC after accidentally sending them, you should consider yourself a lucky man
[14:41] <Geebus> shit, 511 BTC is like, 2 months salary for me
[14:41] <wtfmate1> more like 3 for me
[14:43] <Geebus> phantomcircuit: I'll help you out... I'll send you 1BTC for every law you can actually show verifiable text of that he broke by receiving them without ever stealing anything from you.
[14:43] <BenDavis> thats a good deal
[14:44] <Geebus> I'll sweeten the deal... 1 BTC for every US law, and 0.5 for laws from other countries.
[14:45] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, no thanks
[14:46] <Geebus> Just trying to be charitable. Smiley
[14:48] <phantomcircuit> wtfmate1, ps https://blockexplorer.com/address/1Ga2AnjMgiGdCPy3MfGeBpirfrVJ9MNR5J
[14:48] <wtfmate1> so you have 0 btc...
[14:48] <wtfmate1> ?
[14:48] <wtfmate1> what?
[14:48] <Geebus> That looks insolvent to me. lol j/k
[14:50] <wtfmate1> is that a donation address to get pittycoins back or something?? lol
[14:51] <phantomcircuit> no just wait
[14:51] <phantomcircuit> proof it was empty first
[14:51] <wtfmate1> lol ok
[14:52] <phantomcircuit> http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/#c337e8dfcb28394c0a41a85fd70a3d9aed66af7059092bdcc44a5fcf69fa193a
[14:52] <phantomcircuit> id say we're plenty solvent
[14:53] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, well since you've made your position clear i will be making everything that's occurred public
[14:53] <wtfmate1> 5865.33254933, nice.  In that case, can I have 511 btc if I promise to send them back?
[14:53] <BenDavis> Ok.  But I still do not know what you are talking about
[14:54] <phantomcircuit> BenDavis, if you dont think it's illegal than why bother denying it?
[14:54] <BenDavis> I just chat here ... no clue what BTC is
[14:56] <Geebus> Perhaps it's a different BenDavis? ...bitcoin *is* an anonymous currency.
[14:57] <BenDavis> Is a pretty common name
[14:57] <Geebus> Isn't there a clothing designer named Ben Davis?
[14:57] <Geebus> I think I got some of those pants from Costco.
[14:57] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, he's using the same ip address
[14:57] <BenDavis> I understand tho Patrick.  I would be pretty pissed if I made such an epic mistake like that.
[14:58] <Geebus> http://www.techspot.com/news/43664-us-judge-an-ip-address-is-not-a-person.html
[14:58] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, so his kid did it?
[14:58] <phantomcircuit> yeah i dont think so
[14:58] <BenDavis> Did what?
[14:58] <Geebus> Someone on his wireless perhaps?
[14:59] <BenDavis> I do have an open AP here
[14:59] <BenDavis> lmfaooooo
[14:59] <Geebus> Or maybe his ISP has dynamic IP pools. IPv4 addresses are in short supply.
[14:59] <phantomcircuit> he's had the same ip for months
[15:00] <BenDavis> I pee sometimes for months.
[15:00] <Geebus> Well, he did say he has an open AP.
[15:00] <BenDavis> Few beers and sheesh
[15:00] <BenDavis> out like a river
[15:00] <BenDavis> out like BTC coming from Patricks exchange
[15:01] <Geebus> There's a new tagline for MtGox... "We may have gotten hacked, but at least we didn't just GIVE the bitcoins away."
[15:02] <BenDavis> LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
[15:03] <phantomcircuit> well ill stop wasting my time
[15:03:13 * phantomcircuit has left #bitcoinpool ("Leaving")
[15:03] <BenDavis> lmfaoooooo
[15:03] <BenDavis> what a douche
[15:03] <BenDavis> Someone got really lucky tho... how cool is that
[15:04:11 * wtfmate1 is laughing so hard he is crying   >-)
[15:04] <wtfmate1> LMAO
[15:04] <BenDavis> that was EPIC comedy right there folks
[15:15] <wtfmate1> http://globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/i-can-has-programming-language.jpg
[15:15] <wtfmate1> LMAO
[15:15] <BenDavis> LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOO
[15:17] <wtfmate1> LMFAOOOOOOOO          http://i51.tinypic.com/nlvcx3.png
[15:18] <BenDavis> BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!11!!11
[15:18] <BenDavis> is that my cat?!
[15:18] <BenDavis> Tongue
[15:19] <baggleboy> lol
[15:19] <wtfmate1> oh           my           god
[15:19] <wtfmate1> that is some funny ass shit
[15:19] <wtfmate1> that just made my day
[15:20] <BenDavis> me too bro
[15:20] <wtfmate1> probably not as much as BenDavis though lol
[15:20] <BenDavis> that was fantastic
[15:20] <BenDavis> LOLOLOL
[15:20] <BenDavis> I dunno what he talkin bout
[15:20] <BenDavis> I dont mine I just hangout here
[15:20] <BenDavis> Tongue
[15:20] <baggleboy> lol
[15:21] <baggleboy> !earned BenDavis
[15:21] <BCP> BenDavis's earnings: Estimated: 1.18719980 Unconfirmed: 0 Historical: 24.28209418 Unpaid: 0
[15:21] <baggleboy> ahahah
[15:21] <BenDavis> lolol
[15:34] <baggleboy> Geebus, how much lose?
[15:35] <Geebus> over the past year? ...probably 200 - 300 or so BTC.
[15:35] <BenDavis> Good thing not 511
[15:39] <baggleboy> BenDavis, you not take bitcoin?
[15:40] <BenDavis> No, I do not, in any way shape or form, take anyones bitcoins at anytime.
[15:40] <BenDavis> Absolutely not.
[15:40] <BenDavis> I do not know how to steal anyones bitcoins lol I am not that smart
[15:40] <baggleboy> lol who has?
[15:40] <BenDavis> I have no idea lol
[15:41] <baggleboy> lol
[15:46] <roflin> it looks shopped :>
[16:15:52 * wtfmate1 has quit ()
[16:18] <baggleboy> BenDavis, why he think you???
[16:18] <BenDavis> I have no idea lol
[16:27] <Optonic> at least we know now where not to exchange bitcoins
[16:32] <BenDavis> lol yeha
[16:32] <BenDavis> what an idiot
...
[20:11] <Optonic> jeez, what's wrong with the world. no this not-known-before-exchange sends out freelancing warriors to shit on BenDavis
[20:11] <Optonic> now this even
[20:11] <Optonic> more important is when the next block is solved!!!111 Wink
[20:12] <Raiscan> hi guys, was just wondering why the JSON was frozen?
[20:13] <ChemicalBro> whats this about bendavis
[20:13] <ChemicalBro> whtd i miss...
[20:15] <Raiscan> I was going to run some statistics tracking but it seems to just return the same value all the time atm
[20:17] <Optonic> ChemicalBro: s/b accused him of "stealing" 511 BTC which the I-forgot-the-name-exchange allegedly sent to BenDavis on accident. BenDavis denies having received those BTC.
[20:18] <ChemicalBro> hahaha. is there a thread going?
[20:18:59 * phantomcircuit has joined #bitcoinpool
[20:19] <phantomcircuit> Ben Johnson
[20:19] <phantomcircuit> Just made 4 grand in 15 minutes. Legal.
[20:19] <phantomcircuit> just an fyi
[20:19] <phantomcircuit> he's a liar
[20:19:07 * phantomcircuit has left #bitcoinpool ("Leaving")
[20:19] <Optonic> ChemicalBro: *shrug*
[20:19] <ChemicalBro> huh...
[20:19] <Optonic> ChemicalBro: that was the guy accusing BenDavis of stealing.
[20:20] <roflin> yeah now random hitman come in and quickstab him in irc...
[20:20] <ChemicalBro> well if it did happen, wish it was my address it went to
[20:20] <Optonic> ChemicalBro: Smiley
[20:20] <black888> nevermind im not missing any payments
[20:21] <Optonic> <child'svoice>but, but... you would be a thieve then...</cv>
[20:21] <Optonic> me neither. everything is fine and good and whatever.
[20:21] <Optonic> but nobody sent me 511 btc so far. not so good Wink
[20:22] <black888> whats your btc address
[20:22] <roflin> just realized that 511 is 512-1 which looks like a for(i=0; i<somevalueat512; ++i) {sendbitcoin();} :>
[20:23] <roflin> ah well a i=1 then :>
mizerydearia
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September 02, 2011, 09:12:08 PM
 #113

I would have sent them back.  I also would never do business with someone I knew wouldn't.

But that's just me.  I've turned in wallets full of fiat cash to lost & found before, as well.

(edit)  I should have mentioned that it was also monumentally stupid to put code into live production without thorough testing.  That probably goes without saying, but I'm saying it anyway.  Seriously, guys, who does that?  Especially on a site that's dealing with a quarter million dollars or more worth of electronic funds...

See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40934.msg498999#msg498999
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September 02, 2011, 09:18:42 PM
 #114

Having people take coins that don't belong to them doesn't represent the "real world"... unless you're talking about the uncivil portion of the world where everybody is poor and outlook is bleak.  To you who took the coins and claimed they were yours to keep, I consider you equivalent to a scammer.  You took advantage of a service someone provided you as a favor, and you stole something with the nonsensical justification that you "could".

That's the same way it works in poor neighborhoods.  No one there has anything, and part of that is because they have to spend their life protecting what little they've got, because someone else feels justified to take it just because it's not locked down.  That's not the way to prosperity.  No one gets ahead except at somebody else's expense - the net result is the entire community stands still.  On the other hand, in less desperate places, opportunities to steal are boundless, but people rarely take advantage of it because they choose to do things that get them ahead without setting somebody else back - community thrives and prospers as a whole.

If the idea is that the person who built the service that sent the coins is in error and should have known better, perhaps you're right.  Perhaps he should have known better than to provide a useful service and pitch in his time and talents to provide something to improve the bitcoin community.  Perhaps no one should do a damn thing for Bitcoin and take the risk that a fucker like you might grab their nuts and twist them.

What a fucker you are.  I don't know you, or the person you stole from (yes, stole), but I will be very gratified if I ever hear you got your ass handed to you for this.

This theft is a setback for all of us as a community.

Yeah, BenDavis didn't steal the exchange's money, he stole the community's money, which could potentially be yours. ^_^   Therefore, that means if everyone at the exchange tried to withdraw their money, they couldn't because BenDavis has some of them, the exchange doesn't have them anymore.
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September 02, 2011, 09:23:08 PM
 #115

Important facts you guys are forgetting with all these TERRIBLE analogies and discussions.

1.  BTC is NOT RECOGNIZED as LEGAL TENDER in ANY COUNTRY in the ENTIRE WORLD, galaxy, even Mars.

2.  BTC were NOT stolen.  They were SENT to a wallet ID WITHOUT the recipient asking for them.

3.  NOTHING ILLEGAL HAPPENED.  An IRREVERSABLE TRANSACTION happened with a transfer of DATA that holds NO VALUE from wallet to wallet.  I can have 1 million BTC in my wallet and they are NOT WORTH ANYTHING until I TRADE THEM to an exchange, which THEN recognizes the data as currency.  Still does not make it LEGAL currency.

4.  The BTC did not gain it's value until they were SOLD.  AFTER THE TRANSFER.  The transfer from Patrick to BenDavis of 511 BTC indeed, held no value.  Value comes when you take the data to an exchange.  Hopefully NOT intersango.  They obviously do not know how to manage an Exchange.

5.  Sender lives in Europe.  Recipient lives in USA.  There is NOTHING legal sender can do to recipient.  Not to mention that any court in either country would recognize this as anything legal or illegal for that matter.  They will laugh in your face.  "Let me get this straight, you sent someone 'data' called bitcoins without them asking, and you want them back?"  LMFAO

If you wake up, and there are 511 BTC in your wallet, THEY ARE YOURS.  It is a different story if a Bank sends you funds to your LEGALLY RECOGNIZED BANK ACCOUNT, then yes.  You have a LEGAL obligation to send them back.  This however, is 'data' that you can trade for currency, yes.  But the 'data' itself is NOT RECOGNIZED AS LEGAL CURRENCY IN --ANY-- governing body in the entire WORLD!!!

This is not a 'oops I dropped 50 bucks on the ground' type case.  Because the 50 bucks is LEGAL TENDER and controlled by a Central Bank and governed!  BTC is NOT!!!

This is not a 'oops I built a fountain on your yard' type case.  Because the fountain is REAL!  You can see it.  You can touch it.  You cannot physically touch or see BTC data.

This is for sure 'oops my code sucks ass, I am not as smart as I think I am, I fucked up and sent data to another program that collects data.  I do not own this data either, it is data sent to me from OTHER people that use my exchange.  And if I do not get this data back, I will look like an idiot for losing my customers data - so I will make threats, physical, mental and legal threats on this persons family, child in hopes it will scare them in to sending the data back, but fully knowing that there is nothing I can do legally'

/rant

You are fucked Patrick.  You fucked up.  You blew it.  There is nothing you can do about it.  I would feel like a huge douche too if I was you and try to do anything I could to get it back.

https://intersango.us/templates/clean/img/patrick-cto.png
mizerydearia
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September 02, 2011, 09:26:23 PM
 #116

Are you serious? He sold them before the conversation started, so his intentions were very clear. You think a nice tone would have changed this?

Good to know how to approach scammers for the future though: "Could you please give me my money back? Sad"

Yeah, it could have changed things.  Dude upon waking up and finding 500+ bitcoins may have gotton excited and let his greed get the best of him.  As easy as it was to sell, its just as easy to buy back.  But we'll never know because both parties wanted to be a tough guy.

How to approach someone who has you by the balls?  Hint: Not forcefully.

I imagine (fantasize?) phantomcircuit had contacted him privately initially and probably in a polite manner, and it seems that BenDavis had ignored the private contact and thus led to contacting him publicly in IRC.
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September 02, 2011, 09:29:02 PM
 #117

Having people take coins that don't belong to them doesn't represent the "real world"... unless you're talking about the uncivil portion of the world where everybody is poor and outlook is bleak.  To you who took the coins and claimed they were yours to keep, I consider you equivalent to a scammer.  You took advantage of a service someone provided you as a favor, and you stole something with the nonsensical justification that you "could".

That's the same way it works in poor neighborhoods.  No one there has anything, and part of that is because they have to spend their life protecting what little they've got, because someone else feels justified to take it just because it's not locked down.  That's not the way to prosperity.  No one gets ahead except at somebody else's expense - the net result is the entire community stands still.  On the other hand, in less desperate places, opportunities to steal are boundless, but people rarely take advantage of it because they choose to do things that get them ahead without setting somebody else back - community thrives and prospers as a whole.

If the idea is that the person who built the service that sent the coins is in error and should have known better, perhaps you're right.  Perhaps he should have known better than to provide a useful service and pitch in his time and talents to provide something to improve the bitcoin community.  Perhaps no one should do a damn thing for Bitcoin and take the risk that a fucker like you might grab their nuts and twist them.

What a fucker you are.  I don't know you, or the person you stole from (yes, stole), but I will be very gratified if I ever hear you got your ass handed to you for this.

This theft is a setback for all of us as a community.

Yeah, BenDavis didn't steal the exchange's money, he stole the community's money, which could potentially be yours. ^_^   Therefore, that means if everyone at the exchange tried to withdraw their money, they couldn't because BenDavis has some of them, the exchange doesn't have them anymore.

The exchange is still liable to the people who want to buy/sell just like when a bank gets robbed they can't tell you "sorry, your money was stolen so we can't honor your withdrawal request". The exchange is even more liable because it was an error in their script that caused the problem, ergo their fault the money is gone. When a bank is robbed you can't blame the bank unless they have really sub-standard security in place that invites robbery, which can also be equated to this particular case. One can easily argue that the code wasn't sufficiently secure from error and that puts the liability on the exchanger.

Also, does ANYBODY really want to bring the authorities into this? The last thing anyone should want is bitcoin being mentioned in court documents. Bringing suit or prosecution on anyone for misappropriation of bitcoins only brings scrutiny on the entire system and probably hastening it's demise just like happened to egold and so many other anonymous ecurrencies then everybody loses.
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September 02, 2011, 09:32:56 PM
 #118


It is of of course not clear if money can be recovered in the end, the dude could plead poverty and pay 1£ a month until end of days, for example, etc...


This is always a bitch. I've got a 21-year-old fuckwad that owes my girlfriend almost $20,000 and me over $40,000 in restitution for crashing into me while he was fucking hammered on the freeway, and that is just for incurred expenses, nothing as far as future medical and pain and suffering and all that BS.

The court has him paying us each $20 a month.

As far as the drama:

Just remember monopoly...bank error in your favor, collect $10.

▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
▓▓ ONEDICE.ME ▓▓▓▓▓ BEST DICE EXPERIENCE ▓▓▓▓ PLAY OR INVEST ▓▓▓▓▓▓
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
phantomcircuit
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September 02, 2011, 09:35:08 PM
 #119

The exchange is still liable to the people who want to buy/sell just like when a bank gets robbed they can't tell you "sorry, your money was stolen so we can't honor your withdrawal request". The exchange is even more liable because it was an error in their script that caused the problem, ergo their fault the money is gone. When a bank is robbed you can't blame the bank unless they have really sub-standard security in place that invites robbery, which can also be equated to this particular case. One can easily argue that the code wasn't sufficiently secure from error and that puts the liability on the exchanger.

In any event, no users funds are compromised as we understand the risks.

While we ourselves do not state to offer guarantees for such things. We are fully cognizant such things can occur however no amount of testing can predict every occurrence. We keep an offline wallet exactly for cases like this and although we don't publicly state it, there are certain things we guarantee. This is one of them at least in this specific instance.
mizerydearia
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September 02, 2011, 09:36:28 PM
 #120

By the logic I'm reading here, if I put a new fountain in my front yard, and someone steals it, it was their right, because when you start putting fountains in places without locking them down, it becomes other people's right to steal them if they can.  And that if someone steals my fountain, title to the fountain transfers rightfully to the thief because the nature of fountains is that possession is nine tenths of the law and that transferring fountains (just like cash) is irreversible.

No, when someone accidentally builds a fountain in your front yard, you get to keep it.

You mean to say that if my neighbor puts together his fountain and accidentally does so in my yard, that title to his fountain passes to me?  Sorry, it doesn't work that way.  By that logic, if I go to an auto parts store, buy a new pair of headlights, and install them on my car in their parking lot (their property), that they suddenly own my headlights and/or my car.  Obviously that's ridiculous.

When toner sales men ship you a crate of toner cartridges you didn't ask for, and then sends you a bill for those toner cartridges, you don't have to send them back, and you don't have to pay for them either.  Welcome to the real world.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/supplies.asp

That seems to be a scam.  Perhaps bitcoin exchanges are scams too?
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