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Author Topic: Exchange accidentally sent 512 bitcoins after coding error  (Read 32327 times)
indio007
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September 04, 2011, 04:07:58 AM
 #341


Bitcoin provides network access.  Bitcoins do not.  There is nothing intrinsically valuable about a Bitcoin.  Your references to market value are invalid because the market is not legally recognized as such.  "Value in use" and "value in exchange" are consequently irrelevant.  If what you are saying is true legally, then copyright laws wouldn't need to exist as everything would be a form of copyright since anyone could claim that there is value (and thus ownership) associated with anything you generate or type on your computer.  

Property is determined by its value, and this value must be proven according to existing law.  What you seem to be getting at is that there is an electrical cost associated with the generation of a Bitcoin, and just as the clothmaker would say that there is a manufacturing/time cost associated with the production of the cloth, there is a manufacturing/time cost associated with the production of a Bitcoin.  But there is also a manufacturing/time cost associated with anything I type on the internet, on any post, in any text document, etc., yet this information can legally be 'stolen' and exchanged freely without any legal consequence so long as there is no copyright protection.  So, the definitions you gave are invalid with regard to certain lawful applications, thus rendering their use in this argument invalid.

Can you send info on the BTC network without Bitcoins? NO! Bitcoins are the access token for the network so you are wrong... again...

Everything else is your opinion and it's not supported by any law. Who are you to determine what is "legally recognized"?

The IRS recognizes "pre-paid access" So again you are wrong.
You say bitcoins have no intrinsic value. Niether to Federal Reserve Notes . The value is extrinsic which is enough to support a contract.
Even a promise which has no intrinsic value is a good and valuable consideration.

Let me ask you what does a notary public do? They authenticate documents.
What does the Bitcoin network do? It authenticates electronic data continuously.
A bitcoin allows access to the authentication system (Bitcoin peer to peer network). Like I said it is an access token.

I didn't say anything about electrical costs , stop flailing...

In Bitcoin didn't have any value every single transaction that ever happened involving them would be fraud. You know that's not true.
Bitcoins let you perform a function which you can not perform without them.


One more thing...
Property is determined by value? WTF are you talking about , that is one of the most nonsensical thing I ever heard.


Quote
Property is nomen generalissimum, and extends to every species of valuable right and interest, including real and personal property, easements, franchises, and other incorporeal hereditaments. Lawrence v. Hennessy, 65 S. W. 717, 719, 165 Mo. 659; Boston & L. R. Corp. v. Salem & L. R. Co., 68 Mass. (2 Gray) 35; Scranton v. Wheeler, 21 Sup. Ct 48, 59, 179 U. S. 141, 45 L. Ed, 12G; Caro v. Metropolitan El. Ry. Co., 46 N. Y. Super. Ct. (14 Jones & S.) 164, 168; Metropolitan City Ry. Co. v. Chicago W. D. Ry. Co., 87 111. 317; Illinois Cent. R. Co. v. Commissioners of Highways of Town of Mattoon, 43 N. E. 1100, 1101, 161 111. 247; Southern Kansas Ry. Co. v. Oklahoma City, 69 Pac. 1050, 12 Okl. 82.

In its modern sense, confined to that which may be touched by the hand or seen by the eye. What is called "tangible property" has come to be, in most great enterprises, but the embodiment physically of an underlying life; a life that in its contribution to success is immeasurably more effective than mere physical embodiment Such, for example, are properties built upon franchises, on grants of government, on good will on trade-names, and the like. It is needless to say that to every Ingredient of property thus made up, the intangible as well as the tangible, that which is discernible to mind only as well as that susceptible to physical touch, equity extends appropriate protection. National Tel. News Co. v. Western Union Tel. Co. (U. S.) 119 Fed. 294, 299, 56 C. C. A. 19S, 60 L. R. A. 805.

You sir, do not have a clue what you are talking about. If we were in a strict common law system you would be right. However law was merged with equity after Erie v Tompkins. Property rights are not limited to the physical world. Sorry to burst your bubble. AT this point you are wasting your time ... and mine.
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johnj
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September 04, 2011, 04:10:58 AM
 #342


Property is determined by value? WTF are you talking about , that is one of the most nonsensical thing I ever heard.



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September 04, 2011, 04:36:14 AM
 #343

Hey mizerydearia,

It's pretty fucked up posting people's personal info like that. It proves nothing and makes you look like a dick.
Pretty shitty move man.


hmm, I guess I am okay with http://tinyurl.com/looking-like-this even though all the personal info that I accumulated was already on the Internet available for anyone to find out for themselves as well, and I simply saved them maybe an hours worth of time in which each person (take 100 persons as example) spending 1 hour each equals 100 hours of humantime.  I guess this effort of saving people this time specific to the case of researching a particular individual specifically in the case where the particular individual was pseudonymous is a 'shitty' thing to do in some (most? all? other?) perspectives.

Just because the info is out there doesn't mean you need to compile it together for people to harass a guy that did nothing wrong.
You didn't save anyone any time because no one gives a shit besides you.
Its creepy and you look like a stalker. You are not helping your case.

indio007
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September 04, 2011, 04:44:34 AM
 #344

Here we go...

1. Promote pseudo legalese
2. Attack the victim
3. Huh
4. Profit!


What's wrong , the first line of attack failed , so now you guys are now  going to trot out a red herring as a distraction? All he did was compile publicly available information and consolidate it in one place. If the dude wasn't a thief he wouldn't have the problems.
mizerydearia
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September 04, 2011, 05:44:33 AM
 #345

Just because the info is out there doesn't mean you need to compile it together for people to harass a guy that did nothing wrong.
You didn't save anyone any time because no one gives a shit besides you.
Its creepy and you look like a stalker. You are not helping your case.

Okay.  AnyOnE wannA hElP me wIth mY CaSe?  In case I act liek a headcase or nutcase (or pillowcase?), feel free to showcase the post as example how not to (insert suitable word with "case" in it here).
indio007
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September 04, 2011, 06:07:11 AM
 #346


Okay.  AnyOnE wannA hElP me wIth mY CaSe?  In case I act liek a headcase or nutcase (or pillowcase?), feel free to showcase the post as example how not to (insert suitable word with "case" in it here).

I'll tell you exactly what to do. You can probably just sell the to a debt collector, so you won't have to go to Oregon. It's called choose of remedy. You waive the tort and sue in debt on the conversion into money or money's worth. You have such a good amount of evidence because of the confession. He confessed his identity and the act of receiving it and confessed he had no right to it.. It's a slam dunk.

I PM's you but you didn't answer.
I'm sick of thieves and liars. This national kleptocracy has to end.
I can't wait till he is on here whining because he can't pay his rent because his bank account is frozen and his wages are garnished.
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September 04, 2011, 06:08:09 AM
 #347

Regardless of the law, what is the realistic expectation that a court would take this any more seriously than someone refusing to return WoW gold that was accidentally sent to them?

(I'm asking, not implying anything.)
This is more on the level of an EVE online scam than your petty WoW gold. EVE capital ships that get stolen and ISK from online Madoff scams are valued at tens of thousands of fiat dollars.

Heh, way to miss my point. I have no clue what you're talking about, and neither will a judge.

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mizerydearia
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September 04, 2011, 07:27:50 AM
 #348


Okay.  AnyOnE wannA hElP me wIth mY CaSe?  In case I act liek a headcase or nutcase (or pillowcase?), feel free to showcase the post as example how not to (insert suitable word with "case" in it here).

I'll tell you exactly what to do. You can probably just sell the to a debt collector, so you won't have to go to Oregon. It's called choose of remedy. You waive the tort and sue in debt on the conversion into money or money's worth. You have such a good amount of evidence because of the confession. He confessed his identity and the act of receiving it and confessed he had no right to it.. It's a slam dunk.

I PM's you but you didn't answer.
I'm sick of thieves and liars. This national kleptocracy has to end.
I can't wait till he is on here whining because he can't pay his rent because his bank account is frozen and his wages are garnished.

By the way, for clarification, the issue here is not affiliated with me directly (indirectly as part of bitcoin community perhaps), and therefore this is not my case.  I'm just participating in this thread at my own initiative.
indio007
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September 04, 2011, 07:39:36 AM
 #349

My mistake... well if you know the effected party have them pm me here or msg me on IRC @ freenode
bitlane
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September 04, 2011, 08:08:11 AM
 #350

Just because the info is out there doesn't mean you need to compile it together for people to harass a guy that did nothing wrong.
You didn't save anyone any time because no one gives a shit besides you.
Its creepy and you look like a stalker. You are not helping your case.
Fuck that. Alot of people GIVE A SHIT.

I don't understand how you can defend as guy who joined this thread pretending to be a 'Devils Advocate 3rd party' only to reveal himself (most likely by accident, showing how smart he really is) as Ben Davis during the course of it.

Bottom line, this guy is a complete piece of shit. Read on....
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=40806;sa=showPosts;start=0

This douche nozel deserves to be put through the ringer...and then once again for good measure.

To add to the Douche Repository:

neBo503
aKa beNNy bLanCo

http://www.myspace.com/bendavis503

Employer: (possibly defunct now)
SAVANT CCA
111 SW 5TH AVE, STE 4090
PORTLAND,  OR  97204-3648
(503) 914-5584

About me:
imma computer geek rapper... weird huh

Details
Status: In a Relationship
Orientation: Straight
Religion: Agnostic
Zodiac Sign: Virgo
Children: Someday
Smoke / Drink: No / No
Education: High school
Income: $30,000 to $45,000
Schools
Grants Pass High School
Grants Pass,Oregon
Graduated: 1999
Student status: Alumni
Degree: High School Diploma
1995 to 1999Companies
Savant CCA
Portland, OR US
Network Administrator

bendavis503@tmail.com
bendavis503@gmail.com
nebo503@gmail.com

MiningBuddy
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September 04, 2011, 08:08:45 AM
 #351

My mistake... well if you know the effected party have them pm me here or msg me on IRC @ freenode
The victim here is phantomcircuit, aka Intersango exchange.

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September 04, 2011, 08:09:16 AM
 #352


Bitcoin provides network access.  Bitcoins do not.  There is nothing intrinsically valuable about a Bitcoin.  Your references to market value are invalid because the market is not legally recognized as such.  "Value in use" and "value in exchange" are consequently irrelevant.  If what you are saying is true legally, then copyright laws wouldn't need to exist as everything would be a form of copyright since anyone could claim that there is value (and thus ownership) associated with anything you generate or type on your computer.  

Property is determined by its value, and this value must be proven according to existing law.  What you seem to be getting at is that there is an electrical cost associated with the generation of a Bitcoin, and just as the clothmaker would say that there is a manufacturing/time cost associated with the production of the cloth, there is a manufacturing/time cost associated with the production of a Bitcoin.  But there is also a manufacturing/time cost associated with anything I type on the internet, on any post, in any text document, etc., yet this information can legally be 'stolen' and exchanged freely without any legal consequence so long as there is no copyright protection.  So, the definitions you gave are invalid with regard to certain lawful applications, thus rendering their use in this argument invalid.

Can you send info on the BTC network without Bitcoins? NO! Bitcoins are the access token for the network so you are wrong... again...

Everything else is your opinion and it's not supported by any law. Who are you to determine what is "legally recognized"?

The IRS recognizes "pre-paid access" So again you are wrong.
You say bitcoins have no intrinsic value. Niether to Federal Reserve Notes . The value is extrinsic which is enough to support a contract.
Even a promise which has no intrinsic value is a good and valuable consideration.

Let me ask you what does a notary public do? They authenticate documents.
What does the Bitcoin network do? It authenticates electronic data continuously.
A bitcoin allows access to the authentication system (Bitcoin peer to peer network). Like I said it is an access token.

I didn't say anything about electrical costs , stop flailing...

In Bitcoin didn't have any value every single transaction that ever happened involving them would be fraud. You know that's not true.
Bitcoins let you perform a function which you can not perform without them.


One more thing...
Property is determined by value? WTF are you talking about , that is one of the most nonsensical thing I ever heard.


Quote
Property is nomen generalissimum, and extends to every species of valuable right and interest, including real and personal property, easements, franchises, and other incorporeal hereditaments. Lawrence v. Hennessy, 65 S. W. 717, 719, 165 Mo. 659; Boston & L. R. Corp. v. Salem & L. R. Co., 68 Mass. (2 Gray) 35; Scranton v. Wheeler, 21 Sup. Ct 48, 59, 179 U. S. 141, 45 L. Ed, 12G; Caro v. Metropolitan El. Ry. Co., 46 N. Y. Super. Ct. (14 Jones & S.) 164, 168; Metropolitan City Ry. Co. v. Chicago W. D. Ry. Co., 87 111. 317; Illinois Cent. R. Co. v. Commissioners of Highways of Town of Mattoon, 43 N. E. 1100, 1101, 161 111. 247; Southern Kansas Ry. Co. v. Oklahoma City, 69 Pac. 1050, 12 Okl. 82.

In its modern sense, confined to that which may be touched by the hand or seen by the eye. What is called "tangible property" has come to be, in most great enterprises, but the embodiment physically of an underlying life; a life that in its contribution to success is immeasurably more effective than mere physical embodiment Such, for example, are properties built upon franchises, on grants of government, on good will on trade-names, and the like. It is needless to say that to every Ingredient of property thus made up, the intangible as well as the tangible, that which is discernible to mind only as well as that susceptible to physical touch, equity extends appropriate protection. National Tel. News Co. v. Western Union Tel. Co. (U. S.) 119 Fed. 294, 299, 56 C. C. A. 19S, 60 L. R. A. 805.

You sir, do not have a clue what you are talking about. If we were in a strict common law system you would be right. However law was merged with equity after Erie v Tompkins. Property rights are not limited to the physical world. Sorry to burst your bubble. AT this point you are wasting your time ... and mine.

Network access is different than sending information.  You said network access, not sending information.  When I open my client, I connect to the network regardless if I am sending information or not (I am sending information in order to connect to the network, but I may own no Bitcoins and still send this information).  The network is needed in order to send information.  I can't send information through it unless I have access to it first or unless the network is created upon the sending of information.  Edit How could the Bitcoins that are generated (including the first ones) be verified were it not for a preexisting network with at least one computer to do the confirming?  After all, if they're not verified yet, we can't be sure they're Bitcoins yet, can we?

According to oregon law, property must have a given value.  That is, something cannot be said to be one's property until you can establish some value of it.  This was taken from someone's direct reference of the law itself.  Whether or not you believe it's nonsensical is besides the point.  That's one of the criteria property must have according to law given that the other poster's citation was accurate; it needs to have value.  I wasn't arguing that it doesn't have value because of it's intangible nature.

The US dollar has value because it's recognized as 'legal tender' according to law.  Bitcoin does not fall into this category, so you need another way to establish the value of each one individually; after all, each is unique.  Each Bitcoin is unique unto itself, but since it is not legally recognized as a currency, each must be treated according to its own value, much like a painting.  If Picasso paints a painting, one may sell for $1,000,000 and that indicates an instance of value associated with that individual painting.  That does not imply that all of his paintings are worth $1,000,000 but only that that particular painting is.  The same is true with Bitcoins, the difference being that it is the work of the computer and not an individual that creates them.  When a transaction is made with a particular Bitcoin or group of Bitcoins, there is then an indication of value for those particular Bitcoins, but this does not imply that all the other Bitcoins are worth the same amount.

Each US dollar has it's own individual serial number, but the US dollar is recognized as having value because it is legal tender for all goods and services public or private.  There is no such legal staple for Bitcoin.
Again, I can produce a simple java code (akin to the Bitcoin client and miner) that will do 'work,' such as producing a list of integers from 1-1000 by 2's (the list is akin to a Bitcoin).  Someone may pay me $1,000,000 for this list that my computer has generated.  Does that mean that if someone then steals that list that the 'victim' should be compensated $1,000,000?  According to your argument, they should; after all, it was their property wasn't it?  And isn't that property valuable?  But, no, not all lists of integers 1-1000 by 2's are worth $1,000,000.  That single list happened to be worth that much at that particular instance.  But, according to law (specifically copyright law), that list could be stolen and generated millions of times over and distributed throughout the world with no legal consequence.

the joint
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September 04, 2011, 08:11:56 AM
 #353

Here we go...

1. Promote pseudo legalese
2. Attack the victim
3. Huh
4. Profit!


What's wrong , the first line of attack failed , so now you guys are now  going to trot out a red herring as a distraction? All he did was compile publicly available information and consolidate it in one place. If the dude wasn't a thief he wouldn't have the problems.

Out of curiosity, do we know for absolute certain that the Intersango guy didn't simply create multiple user names on chat, an account on Intersango, and send the coins to himself and then "argue" with himself and try to convince us all that he was really the victim and not the profiteer?

$4,000+ is a fair sum of cash, and with all the scams going on nowadays...

Just making sure and wondering if anyone considered it.

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September 04, 2011, 08:16:50 AM
 #354

Here we go...

1. Promote pseudo legalese
2. Attack the victim
3. Huh
4. Profit!


What's wrong , the first line of attack failed , so now you guys are now  going to trot out a red herring as a distraction? All he did was compile publicly available information and consolidate it in one place. If the dude wasn't a thief he wouldn't have the problems.

Out of curiosity, do we know for absolute certain that the Intersango guy didn't simply create multiple user names on chat, an account on Intersango, and send the coins to himself and then "argue" with himself and try to convince us all that he was really the victim and not the profiteer?

$4,000+ is a fair sum of cash, and with all the scams going on nowadays...

Just making sure and wondering if anyone considered it.
Intersango have already stated they will cover all lost customer funds, so no, I don't see this theory being plausible.

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September 04, 2011, 08:25:14 AM
 #355

Here we go...

1. Promote pseudo legalese
2. Attack the victim
3. Huh
4. Profit!


What's wrong , the first line of attack failed , so now you guys are now  going to trot out a red herring as a distraction? All he did was compile publicly available information and consolidate it in one place. If the dude wasn't a thief he wouldn't have the problems.

Out of curiosity, do we know for absolute certain that the Intersango guy didn't simply create multiple user names on chat, an account on Intersango, and send the coins to himself and then "argue" with himself and try to convince us all that he was really the victim and not the profiteer?

$4,000+ is a fair sum of cash, and with all the scams going on nowadays...

Just making sure and wondering if anyone considered it.
Intersango have already stated they will cover all lost customer funds, so no, I don't see this theory being plausible.

Ok.  Hopefully this happens.

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September 04, 2011, 08:43:17 AM
 #356

I'd give them back.  This year sure has seen the quality of this community go right down the shitter..but I digress.

CoinMan

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September 04, 2011, 08:47:54 AM
 #357

Meh, I'm pretty sure 'value' is irrelevent before the fact its 'property' (parts of data). Once its property, all the judge is gonna ask is 'whats it worth?'.

The thing is. The judge will ask not you. The judge will ask an expert witness, probably invited by claimant. The expert will pull out mobile phone check current mtgox rate and say "As of this moment this day and this month of year 2012, based on current exchange rate on leading exchange, which is 356.33 $ per 1 BTC, fair market value of 512 BTC can be estimated as USD182440.96".

Numbers could vary, but you got the idea.


"Oh, judge, wait, sorry to interrupt, value is as of now 179 thousand... uh, wait 183 thousand threehundre, argh, fuckit, it's about 1/5th of million give or take a couple of tens of thousands"

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September 04, 2011, 09:55:45 AM
 #358

Each US dollar has it's own individual serial number, but the US dollar is recognized as having value because it is legal tender for all goods and services public or private.  There is no such legal staple for Bitcoin.

Nor gold, heirlooms, sheep or socks. That's completely irrelevant as to how something gets valued.

You're not even a good troll.
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September 04, 2011, 02:04:07 PM
 #359

Irreversible transactions do not make honour, ethic and law irrelevant.
I would really like to see a Bitcoin Adjudication service set up that, after considering the evidence presented before it, issues judgements not about statist law but about honour, ethic and reputation.

It would then be up to the perpetrator to decide whether to restore their honour. If they didn't, it would be up to the community to ostracise them. In a well-defined community, ostracism is a very powerful mechanism.
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September 04, 2011, 02:08:03 PM
 #360

Notice how lop-sided that article is.

The article explains (correctly in my opinion) that if an ATM gives you too much money, the bank is entitled to get that money back from you. But if the ATM pays out less than you asked for, "getting this money back could prove tricky".
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