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Author Topic: Exchange accidentally sent 512 bitcoins after coding error  (Read 32334 times)
DLowDAOG
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September 02, 2011, 09:37:26 PM
 #121

Are you serious? He sold them before the conversation started, so his intentions were very clear. You think a nice tone would have changed this?

Good to know how to approach scammers for the future though: "Could you please give me my money back? Sad"

Yeah, it could have changed things.  Dude upon waking up and finding 500+ bitcoins may have gotton excited and let his greed get the best of him.  As easy as it was to sell, its just as easy to buy back.  But we'll never know because both parties wanted to be a tough guy.

How to approach someone who has you by the balls?  Hint: Not forcefully.

I imagine (fantasize?) phantomcircuit had contacted him privately initially and probably in a polite manner, and it seems that BenDavis had ignored the private contact and thus led to contacting him publicly in IRC.

That is NOT the case.  Patrick and Donald sent email after email threatening BenDavis and his family.  His children.  His freedom.  You make an EPIC mistake like this, and then you threaten someones KIDS about it?  That is NOT the way to get what you want back.

Quote
You see this little guy?  He got away with it because he's fucking Indiana Jones.

You however are just some random guy who thinks he got lucky.

You didn't get lucky you just bought yourself a one way trip to jail, we however don't much give a fuck about whether you go to jail or not.

We just want our money back.

Sent it back by noon and we wont need to file a police report and waste some of our time AND A LOT OF YOUR TIME.

and...

Quote
Donald Norman Donald@bitcoinconsultancy.com to me
show details Sep 1 (2 days ago)
Hello BenDavis,

We are about to contact the Oregon police department to file a report of
theft. After which we will send this report of theft to all the leading
bitcoin businesses, especially exchanges (MtGox, TradeHill, Bitcoin7, et
cetera). We have been in contact with exchanges and reported the
addresses which the coins were sent to.

This is a criminal and serious matter. The previous police report I
filed led to an individual being arrested and put on trial. I am not
sure if he received the 9 months in jail as I did not follow up but
police detectives told me the evidence was damning and that it was
unlikely he would be let go.

The evidence we have already amassed against you is very strong. We know
who you are. If you do not want us to file a police report you must
cooperate right away. I will be filing the police report in one hour's
time. Once the police report is filed, there is no way that I know to
reverse it. Ideally, I would not want to send another person to jail so
please contact me.



Sincerely,

Donald Norman

The fuck outta here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1  You cannot do anything about it.  You fucked up.  I am sure BenDavis welcomes you to try and press any kind of charges.  Being you publicly admitted the code is the problem.  Being that BTC is not legal tender.  Being that you live in another country lmfao
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September 02, 2011, 09:38:39 PM
 #122

If someone drops a $50 bill on the street and I come along after they are gone and pick it up, it is mine. It is not stolen. It is lost. I am not liable for the other person losing their $50.

What? Really? You'd do that? You'd not be like: "hey, you lost 50 bucks".

Man, look up Karma, you poor soul.

Let me throw a hypothetical at you. Suppose I DO see someone drop $50 but instead of either telling him about it or picking it up for myself I choose instead to ignore it and someone else behind me picks it up and keeps it. Have I committed a crime then?
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September 02, 2011, 09:43:10 PM
 #123

Irreversible transactions do not make honour, ethic and law irrelevant.

Shit, it just took me like 20 times more words to say the same thing. +1 vladimir and another one for hitting the nail on the head.

This deserves more attention.  Yay for Vladimir!

I would definitely give the BTC back, but only after refusing and forcing the "exchange" to cry publicly about their own gross incompetence for a while.  Just giving it back lets them off the hook too easily.  Not knowing what the fuck you're doing while handling other people's money should have repercussions.


gross incompetence?

The fuck outta here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1  You cannot do anything about it.  You fucked up.  I am sure BenDavis welcomes you to try and press any kind of charges.  Being you publicly admitted the code is the problem.  Being that BTC is not legal tender.  Being that you live in another country lmfao

see above

3.  NOTHING ILLEGAL HAPPENED.  An IRREVERSABLE TRANSACTION happened with a transfer of DATA that holds NO VALUE from wallet to wallet.  I can have 1 million BTC in my wallet and they are NOT WORTH ANYTHING until I TRADE THEM to an exchange, which THEN recognizes the data as currency.  Still does not make it LEGAL currency.

4.  The BTC did not gain it's value until they were SOLD.  AFTER THE TRANSFER.  The transfer from Patrick to BenDavis of 511 BTC indeed, held no value.  Value comes when you take the data to an exchange.  Hopefully NOT intersango.  They obviously do not know how to manage an Exchange.

hmmmm, I'm curious about this.  Can anyone acknowledge or confirm the validity of this statement?
phantomcircuit
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September 02, 2011, 10:01:48 PM
 #124

My initial email
Quote
Hi,

We just accidentally sent you 511 transfers for 1 BTC each.

I would personally be extremely grateful if you would send back the
accidentally sent funds.

Very Sincerely
Patrick

Email sent after it become clear to me who he was (and I assumed he knew that I knew).
Quote
Hello,

Now that we have been properly acquainted possibly you are more in the
mood to resolve this situation.

I propose that you send the full amount 511 BTC to
18G4QhjCRWsv8YJgnzRtYZGruGF8chvx1g and in return we will not pursue
criminal charges.

Patrick

My final email to him is a comical attempt to verify that he was indeed receiving my emails, the image contained was hot linked and he did indeed download it.
Title: You are not this cool
Quote
You see this little guy?  He got away with it because he's fucking Indiana Jones.

You however are just some random guy who thinks he got lucky.

You didn't get lucky you just bought yourself a one way trip to jail, we however don't much give a fuck about whether you go to jail or not.

We just want our money back.

Sent it back by noon and we wont need to file a police report and waste some of our time AND A LOT OF YOUR TIME.


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September 02, 2011, 10:06:19 PM
 #125

Also, does ANYBODY really want to bring the authorities into this? The last thing anyone should want is bitcoin being mentioned in court documents. Bringing suit or prosecution on anyone for misappropriation of bitcoins only brings scrutiny on the entire system and probably hastening it's demise just like happened to egold and so many other anonymous ecurrencies then everybody loses.

Would it be useful to establish legal precedent?

That is NOT the case.  Patrick and Donald sent email after email threatening BenDavis and his family.  His children.  His freedom.  You make an EPIC mistake like this, and then you threaten someones KIDS about it?  That is NOT the way to get what you want back.

Ah, I see.  You should publicize the threats.
copumpkin
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September 02, 2011, 10:14:00 PM
 #126

Important facts you guys are forgetting with all these TERRIBLE analogies and discussions.

1.  BTC is NOT RECOGNIZED as LEGAL TENDER in ANY COUNTRY in the ENTIRE WORLD, galaxy, even Mars.

2.  BTC were NOT stolen.  They were SENT to a wallet ID WITHOUT the recipient asking for them.

3.  NOTHING ILLEGAL HAPPENED.  An IRREVERSABLE TRANSACTION happened with a transfer of DATA that holds NO VALUE from wallet to wallet.  I can have 1 million BTC in my wallet and they are NOT WORTH ANYTHING until I TRADE THEM to an exchange, which THEN recognizes the data as currency.  Still does not make it LEGAL currency.

4.  The BTC did not gain it's value until they were SOLD.  AFTER THE TRANSFER.  The transfer from Patrick to BenDavis of 511 BTC indeed, held no value.  Value comes when you take the data to an exchange.  Hopefully NOT intersango.  They obviously do not know how to manage an Exchange.

5.  Sender lives in Europe.  Recipient lives in USA.  There is NOTHING legal sender can do to recipient.  Not to mention that any court in either country would recognize this as anything legal or illegal for that matter.  They will laugh in your face.  "Let me get this straight, you sent someone 'data' called bitcoins without them asking, and you want them back?"  LMFAO

If you wake up, and there are 511 BTC in your wallet, THEY ARE YOURS.  It is a different story if a Bank sends you funds to your LEGALLY RECOGNIZED BANK ACCOUNT, then yes.  You have a LEGAL obligation to send them back.  This however, is 'data' that you can trade for currency, yes.  But the 'data' itself is NOT RECOGNIZED AS LEGAL CURRENCY IN --ANY-- governing body in the entire WORLD!!!

This is not a 'oops I dropped 50 bucks on the ground' type case.  Because the 50 bucks is LEGAL TENDER and controlled by a Central Bank and governed!  BTC is NOT!!!

This is not a 'oops I built a fountain on your yard' type case.  Because the fountain is REAL!  You can see it.  You can touch it.  You cannot physically touch or see BTC data.

This is for sure 'oops my code sucks ass, I am not as smart as I think I am, I fucked up and sent data to another program that collects data.  I do not own this data either, it is data sent to me from OTHER people that use my exchange.  And if I do not get this data back, I will look like an idiot for losing my customers data - so I will make threats, physical, mental and legal threats on this persons family, child in hopes it will scare them in to sending the data back, but fully knowing that there is nothing I can do legally'

/rant

You are fucked Patrick.  You fucked up.  You blew it.  There is nothing you can do about it.  I would feel like a huge douche too if I was you and try to do anything I could to get it back.



You clearly seem to think you're in the right here. You might want to read up on more law before doing something so sketchy, next time. The legal tender point is irrelevant; you are in possession of someone else's property, regardless of whether it's an "official currency" or not, and you demonstrated bad faith by selling it all immediately. Your point about it acquiring value the moment you sold it makes no sense. If it didn't have value before you sold it, nobody would have bought it from you. You might also want to read things like http://www.austinchronicle.com/columns/2005-12-02/315676/. Whether it's an intangible good or not is also irrelevant. You did not _take_ someone's property, but you did not make a reasonable effort to return it to them, and instead posted on facebook (of which there is documentation) about "free money" and started preaching about how the victim was in the wrong. Definitely not good faith, and it'll look bad when the law gets involved.

I could accidentally send you my collection of used women's panties (hypothetically Grin) and if you kept it, you'd be liable. No, used panties are not legal tender. No, they have no market value. But you still took my stuff, and made no effort to return it to me. Sure, you wouldn't be liable for much, but you would definitely be in the wrong.

Over $4000? You should be worried.

Edit: Also, what's with posting his picture and name? Who cares if you know who he is? Are you trying to intimidate him by suggesting you know who he is?
DLowDAOG
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September 02, 2011, 10:16:07 PM
 #127

Also, does ANYBODY really want to bring the authorities into this? The last thing anyone should want is bitcoin being mentioned in court documents. Bringing suit or prosecution on anyone for misappropriation of bitcoins only brings scrutiny on the entire system and probably hastening it's demise just like happened to egold and so many other anonymous ecurrencies then everybody loses.

Would it be useful to establish legal precedent?

That is NOT the case.  Patrick and Donald sent email after email threatening BenDavis and his family.  His children.  His freedom.  You make an EPIC mistake like this, and then you threaten someones KIDS about it?  That is NOT the way to get what you want back.

Ah, I see.  You should publicize the threats.

[05:21] <@Geebus> <phantomcircuit> i see you really like your guns [04:47] <phantomcircuit> if you want to keep them i suggest working with us
[05:22] <@Geebus> You threatened him with injury to his person or personal affects.
[05:22] <phantomcircuit> Geebus, yes felons are not allowed to have firearms

^^^ I take that as a threat.  And so would a court.  But again, we live in different countries.  There is nothing legal that can be done lmfaooo
DLowDAOG
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September 02, 2011, 10:18:17 PM
 #128

Quote
You clearly seem to think you're in the right here. You might want to read up on more law before doing something so sketchy, next time. The legal tender point is irrelevant; you are in possession of someone else's property, regardless of whether it's an "official currency" or not, and you demonstrated bad faith by selling it all immediately. Your point about it acquiring value the moment you sold it makes no sense. If it didn't have value before you sold it, nobody would have bought it from you. You might also want to read things like http://www.austinchronicle.com/columns/2005-12-02/315676/. Whether it's an intangible good or not is also irrelevant. You did not _take_ someone's property, but you did not make a reasonable effort to return it to them, and instead posted on facebook (of which there is documentation) about "free money" and started preaching about how the victim was in the wrong. Definitely not good faith, and it'll look bad when the law gets involved.

I could accidentally send you my collection of used women's panties (hypothetically Grin) and if you kept it, you'd be liable. No, used panties are not legal tender. No, they have no market value. But you still took my stuff, and made no effort to return it to me. Sure, you wouldn't be liable for much, but you would definitely be in the wrong.

Over $4000? You should be worried.

Edit: Also, what's with posting his picture and name? Who cares if you know who he is? Are you trying to intimidate him by suggesting you know who he is?

You are WRONG.  I am NOT in possession of anyone elses property.  Once the Bitcoin transfer was complete, it is MY property now.  You ALL know this.  That is how the game goes.  Stop acting like a bitch because you are jealous it didn't happen to you.

If I send you 500 BTC, it is YOUR property now.  NOT mine.  That is how BTC works.  WE ALL know this.
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September 02, 2011, 10:19:04 PM
 #129

oops, see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40934.msg499984#msg499984
DLowDAOG
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September 02, 2011, 10:20:08 PM
 #130

Definitely not good faith, and it'll look bad when the law gets involved.

You really seem to think the law is going to get involved?  What law lmfao WE LIVE IN DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.
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September 02, 2011, 10:21:21 PM
 #131



3.  NOTHING ILLEGAL HAPPENED.  An IRREVERSABLE TRANSACTION happened with a transfer of DATA that holds NO VALUE from wallet to wallet.  I can have 1 million BTC in my wallet and they are NOT WORTH ANYTHING until I TRADE THEM to an exchange, which THEN recognizes the data as currency.  Still does not make it LEGAL currency.

4.  The BTC did not gain it's value until they were SOLD.  AFTER THE TRANSFER.  The transfer from Patrick to BenDavis of 511 BTC indeed, held no value.  Value comes when you take the data to an exchange.  Hopefully NOT intersango.  They obviously do not know how to manage an Exchange.

hmmmm, I'm curious about this.  Can anyone acknowledge or confirm the validity of this statement?

Its true, now give me all your worthless bitcoins.
Of course its not true...but thats not the point so its not worth answering. The social contract injury here was wrongful disposition/conversion. It doesnt matter if the coins are worthless, he still committed theft. What people really care about is the respect of personal private property.

This guy was allowed to be a customer and he knew d**n well by signing up what social contract he was getting into.
copumpkin
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September 02, 2011, 10:23:06 PM
 #132


You are WRONG.  I am NOT in possession of anyone elses property.  Once the Bitcoin transfer was complete, it is MY property now.  You ALL know this.  That is how the game goes.  Stop acting like a bitch because you are jealous it didn't happen to you.

If I send you 500 BTC, it is YOUR property now.  NOT mine.  That is how BTC works.  WE ALL know this.

That is actually not true: read the article I linked.

Also, here's the Oregon law on the matter: http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/164.html

I'll quote the relevant section (164.015):
Quote
     (2) Commits theft of property lost, mislaid or delivered by mistake as provided in ORS 164.065;

Furthermore, because its value is greater than $1000 (164.055), it counts as a theft in the first degree.
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September 02, 2011, 10:24:57 PM
 #133

Definitely not good faith, and it'll look bad when the law gets involved.

You really seem to think the law is going to get involved?  What law lmfao WE LIVE IN DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

He might live outside the US right now, but he is a US citizen, and fully intends to prosecute. He's no less of a citizen because he lives abroad, and the law won't take him any less seriously.
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September 02, 2011, 10:25:37 PM
 #134

Sad.

FYI; "legal tender" or "legally recognized currency" etc is completely irrelevant, don't really understand why so many keep bringing that up. It's absolutely correct that the receiver of a faulty transfer does not in any way become the owner.

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September 02, 2011, 10:26:05 PM
 #135

That is NOT the case.  Patrick and Donald sent email after email threatening BenDavis and his family.  His children.  His freedom.  You make an EPIC mistake like this, and then you threaten someones KIDS about it?  That is NOT the way to get what you want back.

This is interesting.  DLowDAOG confirms that BenDavis (IRC nick on Freenode) received email from Patrick and Donald, which presumably was sent to his not public email address.  However, then why:

Quote
[04:52] <@BenDavis> But I don't know what you are talking about!
[04:54] <@BenDavis> Patrick Strateman, I have no clue what you are talking about.
[04:54] <@BenDavis> I don't even mine for coins.
[04:55] <@BenDavis> I have no clue what you are talking about!
[04:57] <@BenDavis> Yeah, I do not believe I took anything.
[04:58] <@BenDavis> Can you tell me how I took anything?

Also, it seems BenDavis does mine for coins: http://bitcoinpool.com/index.php?do=userprofile&id=BenDavis
http://i.imgur.com/MjeKP.png
copumpkin
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September 02, 2011, 10:26:51 PM
 #136


You are WRONG.  I am NOT in possession of anyone elses property.  Once the Bitcoin transfer was complete, it is MY property now.  You ALL know this.  That is how the game goes.  Stop acting like a bitch because you are jealous it didn't happen to you.

If I send you 500 BTC, it is YOUR property now.  NOT mine.  That is how BTC works.  WE ALL know this.

Just to add to my list of relevant sections from that law page:

Quote
 164.065 Theft of lost, mislaid property. A person who comes into control of property of another that the person knows or has good reason to know to have been lost, mislaid or delivered under a mistake as to the nature or amount of the property or the identity of the recipient, commits theft if, with intent to deprive the owner thereof, the person fails to take reasonable measures to restore the property to the owner. [1971 c.743 §126]
DLowDAOG
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September 02, 2011, 10:27:41 PM
 #137

That is NOT the case.  Patrick and Donald sent email after email threatening BenDavis and his family.  His children.  His freedom.  You make an EPIC mistake like this, and then you threaten someones KIDS about it?  That is NOT the way to get what you want back.

This is interesting.  DLowDAOG confirms that BenDavis (IRC nick on Freenode) received email from Patrick and Donald, which presumably was sent to his not public email address.  However, then why:

Quote
[04:52] <@BenDavis> But I don't know what you are talking about!
[04:54] <@BenDavis> Patrick Strateman, I have no clue what you are talking about.
[04:54] <@BenDavis> I don't even mine for coins.
[04:55] <@BenDavis> I have no clue what you are talking about!
[04:57] <@BenDavis> Yeah, I do not believe I took anything.
[04:58] <@BenDavis> Can you tell me how I took anything?

Also, it seems BenDavis does mine for coins: http://bitcoinpool.com/index.php?do=userprofile&id=BenDavis
http://i.imgur.com/MjeKP.png

Congrats detective lol stunning work there.
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September 02, 2011, 10:28:49 PM
 #138

This guy was allowed to be a customer and he knew d**n well by signing up what social contract he was getting into.

If I wake up in the morning, and I find 511 BTC in my account, how did I steal it?  Please explain that.
copumpkin
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September 02, 2011, 10:30:06 PM
 #139

This guy was allowed to be a customer and he knew d**n well by signing up what social contract he was getting into.

If I wake up in the morning, and I find 511 BTC in my account, how did I steal it?  Please explain that.

By not taking measures to return it to its rightful owner, and selling it as soon as you "found" it. As per the definition of theft in your state's laws.
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September 02, 2011, 10:30:40 PM
 #140


You are WRONG.  I am NOT in possession of anyone elses property.  Once the Bitcoin transfer was complete, it is MY property now.  You ALL know this.  That is how the game goes.  Stop acting like a bitch because you are jealous it didn't happen to you.

If I send you 500 BTC, it is YOUR property now.  NOT mine.  That is how BTC works.  WE ALL know this.

That is actually not true: read the article I linked.

Also, here's the Oregon law on the matter: http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/164.html

I'll quote the relevant section (164.015):
Quote
     (2) Commits theft of property lost, mislaid or delivered by mistake as provided in ORS 164.065;

Furthermore, because its value is greater than $1000 (164.055), it counts as a theft in the first degree.

Wrong.  The 511 BTC of data have ZERO value.  So, it is NOT greater than 1000 dollars.  It is ZERO dollars.  It only becomes dollars when it is traded to an exchange.  Come on now.  You are more intelligent then that.

Stop it B.  Stop it.
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