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Author Topic: Exchange accidentally sent 512 bitcoins after coding error  (Read 32358 times)
johnj
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September 02, 2011, 10:31:04 PM
 #141


That is actually not true: read the article I linked.

Also, here's the Oregon law on the matter: http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/164.html

I'll quote the relevant section (164.015):
Quote
     (2) Commits theft of property lost, mislaid or delivered by mistake as provided in ORS 164.065;

Furthermore, because its value is greater than $1000 (164.055), it counts as a theft in the first degree.

Ahh now this is interesting.  Seems BenDavis is on the ropes.  Now the only question I have if because this is international if things get legally mucky.

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DLowDAOG
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September 02, 2011, 10:31:41 PM
 #142

This guy was allowed to be a customer and he knew d**n well by signing up what social contract he was getting into.

If I wake up in the morning, and I find 511 BTC in my account, how did I steal it?  Please explain that.

By not taking measures to return it to its rightful owner, and selling it as soon as you "found" it. As per the definition of theft in your state's laws.

Once it was transferred to me... I AM THE OWNER NOW.  Why is that hard for you to grasp?  If a pool sends you BTC for payment, YOU are the owner.  Not the pool.

You guys are just hating!  I love it!  Bring the hate!
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September 02, 2011, 10:32:18 PM
 #143


You are WRONG.  I am NOT in possession of anyone elses property.  Once the Bitcoin transfer was complete, it is MY property now.  You ALL know this.  That is how the game goes.  Stop acting like a bitch because you are jealous it didn't happen to you.

If I send you 500 BTC, it is YOUR property now.  NOT mine.  That is how BTC works.  WE ALL know this.

I am quite certain that's not how it works in Oregon.

Do we have this guy's real name and address?  This is definitely attorney-worthy.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
copumpkin
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September 02, 2011, 10:32:33 PM
 #144


That is actually not true: read the article I linked.

Also, here's the Oregon law on the matter: http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/164.html

I'll quote the relevant section (164.015):
Quote
     (2) Commits theft of property lost, mislaid or delivered by mistake as provided in ORS 164.065;

Furthermore, because its value is greater than $1000 (164.055), it counts as a theft in the first degree.

Ahh now this is interesting.  Seems BenDavis is on the ropes.  Now the only question I have if because this is international if things get legally mucky.

It's more of a pain him to file a report, but it's certainly possible, and he's made it clear that he intends to follow through with his police report. He is a US citizen living abroad. The thief should definitely be worried, at this point.
kjj
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September 02, 2011, 10:33:05 PM
 #145

Important facts you guys are forgetting with all these TERRIBLE analogies and discussions.

1.  BTC is NOT RECOGNIZED as LEGAL TENDER in ANY COUNTRY in the ENTIRE WORLD, galaxy, even Mars.

2.  BTC were NOT stolen.  They were SENT to a wallet ID WITHOUT the recipient asking for them.

3.  NOTHING ILLEGAL HAPPENED.  An IRREVERSABLE TRANSACTION happened with a transfer of DATA that holds NO VALUE from wallet to wallet.  I can have 1 million BTC in my wallet and they are NOT WORTH ANYTHING until I TRADE THEM to an exchange, which THEN recognizes the data as currency.  Still does not make it LEGAL currency.

4.  The BTC did not gain it's value until they were SOLD.  AFTER THE TRANSFER.  The transfer from Patrick to BenDavis of 511 BTC indeed, held no value.  Value comes when you take the data to an exchange.  Hopefully NOT intersango.  They obviously do not know how to manage an Exchange.

5.  Sender lives in Europe.  Recipient lives in USA.  There is NOTHING legal sender can do to recipient.  Not to mention that any court in either country would recognize this as anything legal or illegal for that matter.  They will laugh in your face.  "Let me get this straight, you sent someone 'data' called bitcoins without them asking, and you want them back?"  LMFAO

I love internet lawyers.

1.  Irrelevant.  A bicycle is also not recognized as legal tender anywhere, but there are plenty of people in prison for stealing them.
2.  It became theft when they weren't returned.  You don't like the bank error analogy, so try a warehouse.  They give you the wrong parcel, you sell it instead of giving it back.  You go to prison.
3.  Nonsense from start to finish.  The exchange of data is a token to memorialize the transfer of the ownership interest in the intangible property.  That ownership interest has a very real value, and the markets are very, very liquid, so the value is quite certain.  Do you think your house has no value because it isn't at this moment undergoing a sale?
4.  Nonsense, covered in point 3.
5.  The state has an interest in prosecuting felony grand theft, even when the victim is a foreigner.  If you hire a hitman to kill someone overseas, don't imagine that you won't end up in prison because the target doesn't live in your country.

The laughing will go the other way.  Ask a lawyer or a judge if you don't believe me.

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DLowDAOG
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September 02, 2011, 10:33:24 PM
 #146


That is actually not true: read the article I linked.

Also, here's the Oregon law on the matter: http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/164.html

I'll quote the relevant section (164.015):
Quote
     (2) Commits theft of property lost, mislaid or delivered by mistake as provided in ORS 164.065;

Furthermore, because its value is greater than $1000 (164.055), it counts as a theft in the first degree.

Ahh now this is interesting.  Seems BenDavis is on the ropes.  Now the only question I have if because this is international if things get legally mucky.

Bro, the transfer has no monetary value.  If I send you 1000000 BTC, they have NO VALUE.  Until you sell them.  Patrick is going to have a BITCH of a time trying to get any court to prosecute me.  I welcome the challenge.  He will spend WAY more than 511 worth of BTC at an exchange rate of 8.5 on his lawyer fees lmfaoooooo

You really think cops are just going to show up at my door and cuff me, put me in jail?  You guys are smoking something bad!!!!!!
johnj
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September 02, 2011, 10:33:39 PM
 #147



Wrong.  The 511 BTC of data have ZERO value.  So, it is NOT greater than 1000 dollars.  It is ZERO dollars.  It only becomes dollars when it is traded to an exchange.  Come on now.  You are more intelligent then that.

Stop it B.  Stop it.


Meh, I'm pretty sure 'value' is irrelevent before the fact its 'property' (parts of data). Once its property, all the judge is gonna ask is 'whats it worth?'.

I've seen plenty of Judge Judy to know when someone steals a TV, even though its not currency, the courts can still estimate a value of what it'd be worth once it was converted to currency.  And then you pay that.

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copumpkin
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September 02, 2011, 10:34:18 PM
 #148

This guy was allowed to be a customer and he knew d**n well by signing up what social contract he was getting into.

If I wake up in the morning, and I find 511 BTC in my account, how did I steal it?  Please explain that.

By not taking measures to return it to its rightful owner, and selling it as soon as you "found" it. As per the definition of theft in your state's laws.

Once it was transferred to me... I AM THE OWNER NOW.  Why is that hard for you to grasp?  If a pool sends you BTC for payment, YOU are the owner.  Not the pool.

You guys are just hating!  I love it!  Bring the hate!

Do you honestly think the law works that way? I just linked you to a page from your own state's law books that says exactly the opposite of what you just said. He is a US citizen, and regardless of his citizenship, a crime was committed. His police report will cause you significant headaches, but feel free to keep acting like a badass online.
Vladimir
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September 02, 2011, 10:34:25 PM
 #149

It's not to late to return either bitcoins or fiat equivalent and settle this case amicably right now.

You do not want to have to pay 512 BTC in a year time when 1 BTC = 1000$.

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DLowDAOG
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September 02, 2011, 10:38:14 PM
 #150



Wrong.  The 511 BTC of data have ZERO value.  So, it is NOT greater than 1000 dollars.  It is ZERO dollars.  It only becomes dollars when it is traded to an exchange.  Come on now.  You are more intelligent then that.

Stop it B.  Stop it.


Meh, I'm pretty sure 'value' is irrelevent before the fact its 'property' (parts of data). Once its property, all the judge is gonna ask is 'whats it worth?'.

I've seen plenty of Judge Judy to know when someone steals a TV, even though its not currency, the courts can still estimate a value of what it'd be worth once it was converted to currency.  And then you pay that.

And I will reply to the judge, they are WORTHLESS, until they are sold at an exchange.

Anyhow, I am talking to my lawyer right now.  Will report what he says.
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September 02, 2011, 10:38:27 PM
 #151


You are WRONG.  I am NOT in possession of anyone elses property.  Once the Bitcoin transfer was complete, it is MY property now.  You ALL know this.  That is how the game goes.  Stop acting like a bitch because you are jealous it didn't happen to you.

If I send you 500 BTC, it is YOUR property now.  NOT mine.  That is how BTC works.  WE ALL know this.

I am quite certain that's not how it works in Oregon.

Do we have this guy's real name and address?  This is definitely attorney-worthy.

I imagine you can find information searching google and other sites starting from alias BenDavis.
bosschair
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September 02, 2011, 10:39:05 PM
 #152


Well, yeah.  "Oh, we tested the code, but we can't be expected to have tests that make sure it's going to work in production" as an excuse is completely amateur hour.

Unless, of course, "irrevocably firehosing money at random strangers" is one of the spec'd features of their software, in which case I fully apologize for implying that it wasn't well-tested.
casascius
Mike Caldwell
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September 02, 2011, 10:40:45 PM
 #153


Bro, the transfer has no monetary value.  If I send you 1000000 BTC, they have NO VALUE.  Until you sell them.  Patrick is going to have a BITCH of a time trying to get any court to prosecute me.  I welcome the challenge.  He will spend WAY more than 511 worth of BTC at an exchange rate of 8.5 on his lawyer fees lmfaoooooo

You really think cops are just going to show up at my door and cuff me, put me in jail?  You guys are smoking something bad!!!!!!

That is not true.  They have an easily established value.  All of this talk about "a judge won't recognize these as having value" is complete nonsense.  Absolutely certain of it.

Not only that, but with the way you are brazenly shirking this, the person who may very likely be liable for the lawyer fees in the end is the clown who took the 511 BTC he wasn't entitled to and who claims he "OWNS" them.

Patrick, FYI, I have saved this entire thread to a PDF file, just in case mr. DAOG realizes that deleting his own posts is a wise idea.  I am in the US and am able to produce an affidavit in support of your complaint against this guy, assuming you can identify him, in support of the fact that bitcoins have value and such questions that would be asked by the authorities in Oregon.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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September 02, 2011, 10:41:11 PM
 #154



Wrong.  The 511 BTC of data have ZERO value.  So, it is NOT greater than 1000 dollars.  It is ZERO dollars.  It only becomes dollars when it is traded to an exchange.  Come on now.  You are more intelligent then that.

Stop it B.  Stop it.


Meh, I'm pretty sure 'value' is irrelevent before the fact its 'property' (parts of data). Once its property, all the judge is gonna ask is 'whats it worth?'.

I've seen plenty of Judge Judy to know when someone steals a TV, even though its not currency, the courts can still estimate a value of what it'd be worth once it was converted to currency.  And then you pay that.

lol another TERRIBLE analogy.  The TV is not 'digital data' - the TV is worth something.  You do not have to take a TV to an exchange and trade it for currency.  It already has worth.

Anyways, again, I am talking to my lawyer right now.
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September 02, 2011, 10:41:20 PM
 #155


You are WRONG.  I am NOT in possession of anyone elses property.  Once the Bitcoin transfer was complete, it is MY property now.  You ALL know this.  That is how the game goes.  Stop acting like a bitch because you are jealous it didn't happen to you.

If I send you 500 BTC, it is YOUR property now.  NOT mine.  That is how BTC works.  WE ALL know this.

I am quite certain that's not how it works in Oregon.

Do we have this guy's real name and address?  This is definitely attorney-worthy.

I imagine you can find information searching google and other sites starting from alias BenDavis.

The victim has all the necessary information (including where the thief lives) to file a police report. I'm not sure it'd be kosher to publish it on a public forum, though. Lots of crazies around here Smiley
johnj
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September 02, 2011, 10:41:50 PM
 #156


And I will reply to the judge, they are WORTHLESS, until they are sold at an exchange.

Anyhow, I am talking to my lawyer right now.  Will report what he says.

Pretty sure it'd be hard to back up, seeing as how it's already documented that you've mined for them, proving that you already think they're of some value (time invested, power spent, etc).  And if you have a record that can be traced back to an Exchange (as in, you've already traded them for currency)... hard to claim you think they're 'worthless' and have 'no value'.

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DLowDAOG
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September 02, 2011, 10:43:17 PM
 #157


Bro, the transfer has no monetary value.  If I send you 1000000 BTC, they have NO VALUE.  Until you sell them.  Patrick is going to have a BITCH of a time trying to get any court to prosecute me.  I welcome the challenge.  He will spend WAY more than 511 worth of BTC at an exchange rate of 8.5 on his lawyer fees lmfaoooooo

You really think cops are just going to show up at my door and cuff me, put me in jail?  You guys are smoking something bad!!!!!!

That is not true.  They have an easily established value.  All of this talk about "a judge won't recognize these as having value" is complete nonsense.  Absolutely certain of it.

Not only that, but with the way you are brazenly shirking this, the person who may very likely be liable for the lawyer fees in the end is the clown who took the 511 BTC he wasn't entitled to and who claims he "OWNS" them.

Patrick, FYI, I have saved this entire thread to a PDF file, just in case mr. DAOG realizes that deleting his own posts is a wise idea.  I am in the US and am able to produce an affidavit in support of your complaint against this guy, assuming you can identify him, in support of the fact that bitcoins have value and such questions that would be asked by the authorities in Oregon.

LOL congrats super citizen!  But again, when I wake up and there are 511 BTC in my wallet, how did I take them?  Can you please explain where I took anything?
casascius
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September 02, 2011, 10:44:05 PM
 #158


And I will reply to the judge, they are WORTHLESS, until they are sold at an exchange.

Anyhow, I am talking to my lawyer right now.  Will report what he says.

Not that that's an excuse that any judge would buy.  If it were, you could steal gold and claim the same thing.  But yeah, please do let us know what your lawyer says.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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September 02, 2011, 10:44:25 PM
 #159


You are WRONG.  I am NOT in possession of anyone elses property.  Once the Bitcoin transfer was complete, it is MY property now.  You ALL know this.  That is how the game goes.  Stop acting like a bitch because you are jealous it didn't happen to you.

If I send you 500 BTC, it is YOUR property now.  NOT mine.  That is how BTC works.  WE ALL know this.

I am quite certain that's not how it works in Oregon.

Do we have this guy's real name and address?  This is definitely attorney-worthy.

I imagine you can find information searching google and other sites starting from alias BenDavis.

The victim has all the necessary information (including where the thief lives) to file a police report. I'm not sure it'd be kosher to publish it on a public forum, though. Lots of crazies around here Smiley

Again, can you explain how I am a thief, when I wake up and there are 511 BTC in my wallet?  Elaborate.  I do not see how that means theft.
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September 02, 2011, 10:44:31 PM
 #160

finished updating, feel free to continue this elsewhere such as wiki, maybe ED?

The victim has all the necessary information (including where the thief lives) to file a police report. I'm not sure it'd be kosher to publish it on a public forum, though. Lots of crazies around here Smiley


You are WRONG.  I am NOT in possession of anyone elses property.  Once the Bitcoin transfer was complete, it is MY property now.  You ALL know this.  That is how the game goes.  Stop acting like a bitch because you are jealous it didn't happen to you.

If I send you 500 BTC, it is YOUR property now.  NOT mine.  That is how BTC works.  WE ALL know this.

I am quite certain that's not how it works in Oregon.

Do we have this guy's real name and address?  This is definitely attorney-worthy.

I imagine you can find information searching google and other sites starting from alias BenDavis.

From already public informations, here's information that I found:

aliases: BatumKaboom7, BenDavis (IRC), BenDavis5037, benjohnson50314, bennydavis5, Bills_Fan_5030, Dante_Cunningham7, DLowDAOG4, neBo5033, Patty_Mills7, Tyler_Hansborough7
location: Newberg1, Oregon, US (From IRC: 50-39-204-35.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net (Portland, Oregon))
age: 301,6 (born: 9/11/1980)8,12

accounts:
aim: neBo50311,13
email: enDavis503@GMail.com13
msn: davissaveus@live.com11
myspace: http://www.myspace.com/4202032214
myspace: http://myspace.com/benjohnson50314
myspace: http://myspace.com/bennydavis5,13
sidekick: BenDavis503@TMail.com13

jobs:
SAVANT CCA    111 SW 5TH AVE, STE 4090 PORTLAND,  OR  97204-3648    (503) 914-558414

pictures:
mirror http://c2sopublic.reverbnation.com/Photo/1956755/image/l_3b4781ab11aa45e29c4788a148719dcf_1266951297.jpg2
mirror http://www.parentingforums.org/customavatars/avatar1470_1.gif9
mirror http://nyc3img.soundclick.com/21/imgPages/9/2/2560249_298878.jpg?version=13810
mirror http://a1.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/profile01/127/d6e318ab47ff408199561ddb211b1d58/l.jpg14

sources:
0 http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=10987402#10987402 (Google search BenDavis Newberg Oregon)
1 http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=12173091 (Google search BenDavis Newberg Oregon)
2 http://www.reverbnation.com/bendavisbeats503 (Google search BenDavis Newberg Oregon -"Bendavis, MO" -"Bendavis, Missouri" -Missouri)
3 http://www.bitcoinpool.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=767
4 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40934.msg500160#msg500160
5 http://www.softwaretipsandtricks.com/forum/members/nebo503.html (Google search neBo503)
6 http://www.xfire.com/profile/nebo503/ (Google search neBo503)
7 http://sportstwo.com/threads/146731-I-am-29-today.?p=2112786&viewfull=1#post2112786 (Google search neBo503 birthday)
8 http://sportstwo.com/threads/146731-I-am-29-today. (Google search neBo503 birthday)
9 Google Images search BenDavis503
10 http://www.soundclick.com/members/default.cfm?member=bendavis503 (Google search BenDavis503)
11 http://sportstwo.com/threads/152296-Poster-BenDavis503-Threatens-to-Hack-My-PC?daysprune=-1 (Google search BenDavis503)
12 http://www.basketballforum.com/portland-trail-blazers/370367-heard-something-today-work-about-shane-battier-trade.html#post4929586 (Google search BenDavis503)
13 http://board.rapmusic.com/13254086-post1.html (Google search neBo503)
14 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40934.msg501565#msg501565
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