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Author Topic: Exchange accidentally sent 512 bitcoins after coding error  (Read 32357 times)
indio007
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September 03, 2011, 04:19:52 AM
 #221

Mr. and Mrs. 1 and 11 posts , you have no idea what your talking about. The law always works around new inventions and always has.
There is a legal maxim. For every  right , there is a remedy. Bitcoin was released under the MIT License. So there is a right of use. A court of equity will fashion a remedy suited for the controversy.

AS far as enforcing said title. I could , if phantomcircuit would sell me his claim. That's called an assignment of a chose in action. He called also do  what is called a election of remedies. He can waive the tort and sue in assumpsit  for the received value of the stolen items.


Seriously you guys haven't a clue in the world. You are talking out your ass.

This is hilarous.  You are hilarious.  At best you might be able to file a civil suit against him in small claims court.  How much are flights from the UK these days?  ~600BTC?  No, he's not going to jail.  There was no "theft."  Failure to return data that was IM'd to you is not theft.  Failure to return something sent to you unsolicited is not a scam.

But please, reach harder.

Says who ? you? I would pile on some court cases , from the UK even, but I doubt your reading comprehension is capable of absorbing a court holding. Suffice to say UK is a common law country. Unfortunately, you don't know that crimes used to be prosecuted by regular people in the name of the public in addition to their own personal civil suit. The only thing you have to prove is that the act is an injury to the public interest. Not hard considering the public currency was used as an instrument of the theft. The difference between a civil action and a crime is nearly non-existant. The difference is whose interest is being protected. There is much overlap especially when the victim is a member of the public. I bet you don't even know that individual  people can prosecute their own crimes without using some gov't agent.

Unjust Enrichment. Look it up.
The only thing that is going to determine the outcome is how much phantomcircuit persues justice.


Another thing , how do you know the guy is in the UK ? Are you a co-conspirator?

Chew on this. Lords Mansfield is British.

Quote
Another, and very fertile source of such obligations, is found in the right to recover money paid in error. And since payment, as we have seen, includes the delivery of any specific thing whether money or not, the right of action for a repetition has the same broad scope. You may remember that in the case of Moses vs. Marferlan, 2 Burrows, 1005, Lord Mansfield held that if the defendant be under an obligation from the ties of natural justice to refund, the law implies such an obligation founded on the equity of the plaintiff's case, "as it were upon a contract, quasi ex contractu, as the Roman law expressed it."
As a general rule, in order to have a recovery, the thing given must not have been due, either by a perfect or a natural obligation, and the belief in the existence of a debt must have resulted from a mistake, and, as a general rule, from a mistake of fact.
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September 03, 2011, 04:20:27 AM
 #222

IANAL, etc. etc.

In a fair court (one not overly biased regarding e-currencies (the MMO companies have a lot invested in them not being declared property, etc.) here in my jurisdiction (Canada) I think this would be the tort of conversion from a civil perspective, and should be similar for any other common law countries.

Are Bitcoins property? That would require them to be uniquely possessable, transferable and to have value. IMO Bitcoin does meet these requirements, though it could take a lot to argue that to a judge successfully. The fact that it's intangible isn't very important, numbers representing money written on a ledger are still property. Notably, copying data stored in computers (and then deleted) has been considered conversion.

The principles of lost and abandoned property cannot be applied here, since the receiver knows who the owner is and knows how to contact him.

Conversion is the unlawful deprival of the use or possession of property. Basically the civil equivalent of theft. Possession is not ownership.  There has been no transfer of ownership. The sender retains legal ownership, a refusal to return the property is depriving the lawful owner of his property, and is conversion.

Most of this applies to the crime of theft as well.

Yes, it's likely almost impossible to litigate or prosecute unless you live in the same jurisdiction, but it is both a tort and crime, and IMO quite immoral.
indio007
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September 03, 2011, 04:24:45 AM
 #223

Mr. and Mrs. 1 and 11 posts , you have no idea what your talking about. The law always works around new inventions and always has.
There is a legal maxim. For every  right , there is a remedy. Bitcoin was released under the MIT License. So there is a right of use. A court of equity will fashion a remedy suited for the controversy.

AS far as enforcing said title. I could , if phantomcircuit would sell me his claim. That's called an assignment of a chose in action. He called also do  what is called a election of remedies. He can waive the tort and sue in assumpsit  for the received value of the stolen items.


Seriously you guys haven't a clue in the world. You are talking out your ass.


It really doesn't matter what legal gibberish you can spout or what your briefs say, any judge is simply going to look at it, not understand any of it, and tell you to get out of his court room before he fines you for contempt. You may think you're a legal expert but this is how that sort of esoteric technology is handled in a court that deals in fiat money and physical property.

Your a frickin joke. Fined for contempt ? Oooohhh ... I'm scared now! Your desperate for any rationale basis . You won't find one.  Bitcoins are not as esoteric as you think and even if they were courts take expert testimony all the time. Also courts deal in all sorts of subject matter beyond physical property like marriage status, custody and control, fitness of parents, fiduciary duties etc.... all of tose things are abstract ideas.
You are embarrasing yourself at this point. I thought you guys got a good education in the UK.
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September 03, 2011, 04:39:21 AM
 #224

caption this image?



More public details at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40934.msg500238#msg500238
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September 03, 2011, 04:40:06 AM
 #225

Laws were written/interpreted to favor business through years lobbying of which allows stupid shit like bank bailouts to occur instead of letting them fail. Legal precedence imo holds very little value of what people believe is within right and wrong today.

In this specific case, it's only a matter of ethics and morals imo for the funds to be returned by the recipient of the accidental tranfer. As the business in question admitted that they've made a coding mistake, why can't they also admit that they are responsible for the mistake. Asking for a return of funds in good faith is fine, but one must be prepared to face the likely outcome of not getting the funds back. Making implied threats on record doesn't make a great case for the business either.

Own up to your own mistakes and just be happy it wasn't for 5k coins and go away without making too much noise imo. Wait.. that's kinda too late for that. For an exchange, did it not occur to them to maybe quietly fix this issue as to not damage their own reputation.. ? Surely that is far more valuable than $5k.
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September 03, 2011, 05:13:05 AM
 #226

How degraded this community... (sigh)

I had two cases where my project had flaws. One in December 2010 and one in April 2011.

In December guy withdraw everything from project through this flaw in order others could not do it, contacted me and returned all money to safe location..

In April some hacker hacked project and despite writing email that he is going to return money and this should be lesson for me, disappeared.

Today - person openly confirm he stole money and not going to return em.. And most ridiculous part - there are many who support it! Stupid people...

Personally, I returned a lot of wrong sent coins due different bugs and mistypes. And I will do this in future.

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September 03, 2011, 06:09:43 AM
 #227


pwned.

Offer a bounty for the return of the coins "by any means possible" and it doesnt look like you'd have much of a problem finding this guy.

Better to get 400 back than zero. This guy obviously thinks there are no consequences, maybe he needs to be proven wrong and in the process make other scammers think twice.


mizerydearia
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September 03, 2011, 06:25:00 AM
 #228

This doesn't seem to apply to some people in this thread, but I thought I'd share anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K75w6p7cKB8

Quote from: Charlie Chaplin
I'm sorry, but I don't want to be an emperor. That's not my business. I don't want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone, if possible, Jew, gentile, black man, white. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. We want to live by each other's happiness — not by each other's misery. We don't want to hate and despise one another.
In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. Greed has poisoned men's souls, has barricaded the world with hate, has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge has made us cynical. Our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost.
The aeroplane and the radio have brought us closer together. The very nature of these inventions cries out for the goodness in men, cries out for universal brotherhood, for the unity of us all. Even now my voice is reaching millions throughout the world — millions of despairing men, women and little children — victims of a system that makes men torture and imprison innocent people. To those who can hear me, I say — do not despair. The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of greed — the bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress. The hate of men will pass, and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people and so long as men die, liberty will never perish.
Soldiers! Don't give yourselves to brutes — men who despise you — enslave you — who regiment your lives — tell you what to do — what to think or what to feel! Who drill you, diet you, treat you like cattle, use you as cannon fodder. Don't give yourselves to these unnatural men — machine men with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines! You are not cattle! You are men! You have the love of humanity in your hearts. You don't hate! Only the unloved hate — the unloved and the unnatural!
Soldiers! Don't fight for slavery! Fight for liberty! In the 17th Chapter of St. Luke it is written: "the Kingdom of God is within man" — not one man nor a group of men, but in all men! In you! You, the people have the power — the power to create machines. The power to create happiness! You, the people, have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure.
Then, in the name of democracy, let us use that power! Let us all unite! Let us fight for a new world, a decent world that will give men a chance to work, that will give youth the future and old age a security. By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power, but they lie! They do not fulfill their promise; they never will. Dictators free themselves, but they enslave the people! Now, let us fight to fulfill that promise! Let us fight to free the world, to do away with national barriers, to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men's happiness.
Soldiers! In the name of democracy, let us all unite!
indio007
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September 03, 2011, 06:38:25 AM
 #229

From Frederic Bastiat
To the perpetrator.. may he suffer what he has sown..
Quote
Man can live and satisfy his wants only by ceaseless labor; by the ceaseless application of his faculties to natural resources. This process is the origin of property.

But it is also true that a man may live and satisfy his wants by seizing and consuming the products of the labor of others. This process is the origin of plunder.

Now since man is naturally inclined to avoid pain -- and since labor is pain in itself -- it follows that men will resort to plunder whenever plunder is easier than work. History shows this quite clearly. And under these conditions, neither religion nor morality can stop it.

When, then, does plunder stop? It stops when it becomes more painful and more dangerous than labor.....


To the apologists who attempt to justify devious and immoral acts.

Quote
Men naturally rebel against the injustice of which they are victims. Thus, when plunder is organized by law for the profit of those who make the law, all the plundered classes try somehow to enter -- by peaceful or revolutionary means -- into the making of laws. According to their degree of enlightenment, these plundered classes may propose one of two entirely different purposes when they attempt to attain political power: Either they may wish to stop lawful plunder, or they may wish to share in it.
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September 03, 2011, 06:44:53 AM
 #230

This doesn't seem to apply to some people in this thread, but I thought I'd share anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K75w6p7cKB8
Thank you for sharing this.
cypherdoc
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September 03, 2011, 06:47:11 AM
 #231

http://sportstwo.com/threads/152296-Poster-BenDavis503-Threatens-to-Hack-My-PC?daysprune=-1

" Re: Poster BenDavis503 Threatens to Hack My PC
 Originally Posted by hoojacks  
Looking at what you posted, he threatened to hack the site, and then "get" your IP and then "really fuck with you."

The first rule of the internet is that no one knows how to do the things they claim they do. The second rule is that only someone retarded would threaten to do something and then do it.

So I wouldn't get in a tizzy about it.


Well, I have been a network administrator since about 2000. A network admins main job is network security and defense. I have been to multiple Def-Cons and been a computer geek for most of my life. I wouldn't be so fast to say "no one knows how to do the things they claim to do".

As well, I have owned and operated many websites, including vBulletin forums. I know what I am doing. For PapaGs sake, don't make me prove it.

Um, how long have you been reading BenDavis503?

If it takes a retard to make a threat, what does that make the person who creates a thread crying about it and reports the post to a moderator? I will take the former.

lol
Someone please perm ban me, and do not let me back."
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I never hashed for this...


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September 03, 2011, 08:24:23 AM
 #232

http://sportstwo.com/threads/152296-Poster-BenDavis503-Threatens-to-Hack-My-PC?daysprune=-1

" Re: Poster BenDavis503 Threatens to Hack My PC
 Originally Posted by hoojacks  
Looking at what you posted, he threatened to hack the site, and then "get" your IP and then "really fuck with you."

The first rule of the internet is that no one knows how to do the things they claim they do. The second rule is that only someone retarded would threaten to do something and then do it.

So I wouldn't get in a tizzy about it.


Well, I have been a network administrator since about 2000. A network admins main job is network security and defense. I have been to multiple Def-Cons and been a computer geek for most of my life. I wouldn't be so fast to say "no one knows how to do the things they claim to do".

As well, I have owned and operated many websites, including vBulletin forums. I know what I am doing. For PapaGs sake, don't make me prove it.

Um, how long have you been reading BenDavis503?

If it takes a retard to make a threat, what does that make the person who creates a thread crying about it and reports the post to a moderator? I will take the former.

lol
Someone please perm ban me, and do not let me back."


Going to Def-Cons means nothing
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September 03, 2011, 08:36:47 AM
 #233

To the apologists who attempt to justify devious and immoral acts.

You're not really grasping the simple concepts involved here:
1) Bitcoins are an attempt to flee government oversight.
2) The coins weren't stolen - they were sent by a negligent programmer.
3) You're whining about somebody taking advantage of that negligence on a forum that's founded on taking advantage of other people's ignorance while asking for legal intervention from the very body that bitcoin seeks to undermine?

So if you weren't born stupid, what's your excuse?

To back up my point let me quote a wise bitcoiner, NothinG
Isn't it the whole point of bitcoin to make it easier to transfer money without requiring permission from any government?
Yes, and that's why I support Laundering.

Actually, I used the http://app.bitlaundry.com/ to spread 1 BTC out using http://btc-fortune.com/ over 1 day.
This gave me more chances to win without hitting 1 bet after another.
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September 03, 2011, 08:45:41 AM
 #234

It really doesn't matter what legal gibberish you can spout or what your briefs say, any judge is simply going to look at it, not understand any of it, and tell you to get out of his court room before he fines you for contempt. You may think you're a legal expert but this is how that sort of esoteric technology is handled in a court that deals in fiat money and physical property.

It really doesn't matter what legal gibberish you can spout or what your briefs say, any judge is simply going to look at it, not understand any of it, and tell you that he totally understands intangible property, and he knows what "interest" means, and that even though you were an involuntary bailee, with only the crudest and most basic standard of care for your possession, you've somehow managed to reach a level best described as "malice aforethought", and that he really needs the bailiff to escort you back to booking so that you can be processed pending your transfer from county jail to state prison.  You may think you're a legal expert, but it turns out that courts don't give a fuck what the dispute is about, they only care about the actions of the parties involved.

Fixed and inverted that for ya.

If you doubt this outcome, go hang out in district court for a while.  Keep track of the number of cases that correspond to fiat money and physical property vs. intangible property and interests in same.

p2pcoin: a USB/CD/PXE p2pool miner - 1N8ZXx2cuMzqBYSK72X4DAy1UdDbZQNPLf - todo
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hightax
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September 03, 2011, 08:47:21 AM
 #235

It really doesn't matter what legal gibberish you can spout or what your briefs say, any judge is simply going to look at it, not understand any of it, *etc*

First things first: find a prosecutor that gives a shit what a bunch of internet nerds think about tax evasion, money laundering, ponzi/pyramid schemes, and still chooses to chase down a stupid civil tort case instead of the prior list of felonies.
kjj
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September 03, 2011, 09:00:00 AM
 #236

It really doesn't matter what legal gibberish you can spout or what your briefs say, any judge is simply going to look at it, not understand any of it, *etc*

First things first: find a prosecutor that gives a shit what a bunch of internet nerds think about tax evasion, money laundering, ponzi/pyramid schemes, and still chooses to chase down a stupid civil tort case instead of the prior list of felonies.

Prosecutors aren't involved in torts.  Prosecutors go after crimes.  In this case, the crime is felony grand theft.  In many places, the prosecutor must prosecute felonies, by statue, whether or not the victim agrees, or they risk going to prison themselves.

p2pcoin: a USB/CD/PXE p2pool miner - 1N8ZXx2cuMzqBYSK72X4DAy1UdDbZQNPLf - todo
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hightax
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September 03, 2011, 09:16:28 AM
 #237

Prosecutors aren't involved in torts.  Prosecutors go after crimes.  In this case, the crime is felony grand theft.  In many places, the prosecutor must prosecute felonies, by statue, whether or not the victim agrees, or they risk going to prison themselves.

Exactly my point.  Tort conversion is a civil case.  How is anyone going to "go to jail" without a prosecutor pressing charges in a criminal court? There's a lot of crimes that must be prosecuted, this isn't high on the "must" list. 
Gabi
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September 03, 2011, 10:07:21 AM
 #238

It's situations like this where the Community as a whole need to get involved and help the situation in a positive fasion any way they can.

1) All Mining Pool Operators should band together and maintain a SCAMMER IP BLACKLIST to keep people like this OUT of the Community and left mining Solo.



It's in situations like this that the IDIOTS appears.

Woah, ip black list, are you idiot or what? Study how ip work before telling us what to do. Do you know like dynamic IP? I start my router i have an ip. I restart it i have another one. I restart it again, i have another one.
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September 03, 2011, 10:12:25 AM
 #239

Again, can you explain how I am a thief, when I wake up and there are 511 BTC in my wallet?  Elaborate.  I do not see how that means theft.

Did you miss my post citing

Quote
164.065 Theft of lost, mislaid property. A person who comes into control of property of another that the person knows or has good reason to know to have been lost, mislaid or delivered under a mistake as to the nature or amount of the property or the identity of the recipient, commits theft if, with intent to deprive the owner thereof, the person fails to take reasonable measures to restore the property to the owner. [1971 c.743 §126]

from the OR laws I linked to earlier?

Let me translate that:

You are a person. You came into control of property of another that you know to have been delivered under a mistake. You have committed theft, if, with intent to deprive the owner thereof, you failed to take reasonable measures to restore that property to the owner.

What matters isn't you acting like badass on the internet, it's the law in your jurisdiction. And it puts you solidly in the wrong, regardless of any of your weak counterarguments.

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September 03, 2011, 10:16:20 AM
 #240

In this economy that we are in now i dont see how anyone can argue ethics here at all.
No doubts! It seems that most of population here does not even know what ethic is, let alone at least trying to act ethically, not even at least sometimes.

Vlado, I like your style in this thread. A lot.

On a technical basis here, there is no case: phantomcircuit's system was simply in error. I would find that in terms of pure possession law, the situation is analogous to this. You're a manager for a (very honest, very fair, completely unlike all that exist today) bank with a bunch of gold in the vault and a moldy basement. You issue a clean-up order to the janitorial service, but you make a typo. What you meant to say was "get the mold out and throw it out back", but you typed "g" instead of "m", so all those nice bars and krugers ended up next to the bin in the parking lot. Passersby who scoop up the sparkly should -not- be assaulted, kidnapped and caged for doing so.

On the other hand, those identified as having loaded their pockets due to a simple error -do- have an ethical obligation to return the property if promptly called upon it. I do not want to live in a society where after setting my bag down for a few minutes some guy runs off with it screaming "FINDERS KEEPERS!" and everyone else defends that kind of behavior.

Additionally, I don't want to live in a society where assaulting, kidnapping and caging people is viewed as a reasonable course in matters such as this.

In this -particular- case, I think it's right that BenDavis repay phantomcircuit. If the USD/BTC rate went up or stayed the same since the bogus transactions, BenDavis's debt should be no more than 98% of the value at time of transfer, with any transaction/conversion fees in BenDavis's favor. If the rate went down, BenDavis's debt should be no more than 98% of the current value at time of judgment, conversion/transaction fees disposed the same.

BenDavis has certainly expressed bad faith in his sale of property coming into his hands with questionable title, especially given his response to phantomcircuit's claim. phantomcircuit's speech in trying to exact a legitimate claim may be questionable, but that is a completely separate cause of action not to be considered here.

Should BenDavis fail to abide by such a reasonably-argued order (and I am NOT claiming that the above is), his sanction should be a detailed, public excommunication of the BenDavis nym, at a minimum, combined with an invitation to parties to the court to participate in an investigation into his true identity, so that he might be more efficiently shunned at least until such time as he makes restitution.

Vladimir: I just registered bitcoincourt.com. Would you like to be a Justice and partner in building something like that?

FREE ROSS ULBRICHT, allegedly one of the Dread Pirates Roberts of the Silk Road
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