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Author Topic: Exchange accidentally sent 512 bitcoins after coding error  (Read 32325 times)
skilo
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September 02, 2011, 05:59:53 PM
 #61

All these poorly thought out metaphorical analogies are beginning to make my head hurt....

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September 02, 2011, 06:00:45 PM
 #62

By the logic I'm reading here, if I put a new fountain in my front yard, and someone steals it, it was their right, because when you start putting fountains in places without locking them down, it becomes other people's right to steal them if they can.  And that if someone steals my fountain, title to the fountain transfers rightfully to the thief because the nature of fountains is that possession is nine tenths of the law and that transferring fountains (just like cash) is irreversible.

It is more akin to you putting 4 fountains in my yard, having it mathematically verified that you did so, and then coming back to me and saying "although all four fountains are yours now, I only intended to give you one. Give me three fountains back."

I would say more like putting 4 fountains in your yard, and then coming back to you and saying, "although you were delivered four fountains, that was a mistake, you only paid for one.  Please allow me to pick up the other three."

As far as 'who owns what', the blockchain has the final say. This is an underlying concept of Bitcoin.
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September 02, 2011, 06:01:07 PM
 #63

@casascius, of course you are correct here. It's amazing how many ridiculous misconceptions about law most people have and how sure are they about own infallibility.

Note to self: never ever talk about law on forums (except consumeractiongroup.co.uk and likes), wrestling with pigs is not a good idea.

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September 02, 2011, 06:01:23 PM
 #64

If the kids from the neighborhood hit their baseball through your window, you don't have to give it back.

Not a really relevant example, because the cost of compelling them to give it back vastly exceeds the value of the item you want back.  If what went through your window was a fallen piece of a jet airplane and the airline wanted it back, you would damn well have to return it.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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September 02, 2011, 06:02:45 PM
 #65

By the logic I'm reading here, if I put a new fountain in my front yard, and someone steals it, it was their right, because when you start putting fountains in places without locking them down, it becomes other people's right to steal them if they can.  And that if someone steals my fountain, title to the fountain transfers rightfully to the thief because the nature of fountains is that possession is nine tenths of the law and that transferring fountains (just like cash) is irreversible.

No, when someone accidentally builds a fountain in your front yard, you get to keep it.

You mean to say that if my neighbor puts together his fountain and accidentally does so in my yard, that title to his fountain passes to me?  Sorry, it doesn't work that way.  By that logic, if I go to an auto parts store, buy a new pair of headlights, and install them on my car in their parking lot (their property), that they suddenly own my headlights and/or my car.  Obviously that's ridiculous.

When toner sales men ship you a crate of toner cartridges you didn't ask for, and then sends you a bill for those toner cartridges, you don't have to send them back, and you don't have to pay for them either.  Welcome to the real world.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/supplies.asp

Yup. It's called unsolicited mail and you're not responsible to pay for it. Book and magazine publishers used to do a lot of that crap many years ago. they would send you things in the mail and then a few weeks later a bill would arrive and they try to make you pay out of guilt. Postal regulations forbid that crap from happening now. If someone sends you something in the mail that you did not request, you don't have to pay for it or return it.
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September 02, 2011, 06:04:01 PM
 #66

All these poorly thought out metaphorical analogies are beginning to make my head hurt....

Okay so imagine you're stranded on the moon.  Okay not a moon, lets say you're stranded on a star.  Then sun.  You're on the sun and its hot.  Now, someone builds a fountain on the moon and the gravity of the sun sucked the fountain off the moon and it lands next to you.  If you enjoy its cool mist you're stealing the fountains refreshing aura.  You have an OBLIGATION to return 1) The mist 2) The fountain 3) That kids baseball.  

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September 02, 2011, 06:04:25 PM
 #67

If the kids from the neighborhood hit their baseball through your window, you don't have to give it back.

Not a really relevant example, because the cost of compelling them to give it back vastly exceeds the value of the item you want back.  If what went through your window was a fallen piece of a jet airplane and the airline wanted it back, you would damn well have to return it.

Only if it was evidence in an investigation.
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September 02, 2011, 06:05:47 PM
 #68

When toner sales men ship you a crate of toner cartridges you didn't ask for, and then sends you a bill for those toner cartridges, you don't have to send them back, and you don't have to pay for them either.  Welcome to the real world.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/supplies.asp

That's only because the law explicitly allows for this, as a way to prevent unscrupulous scammers from sending you things on purpose just to compel you to buy them.  It's a notable exception to prevent abuse of the mail for fraud.

If toner salesmen park a truck full of toner cartridges in your driveway, you don't suddenly own their truck and their toner, as the exception no longer applies.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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September 02, 2011, 06:07:23 PM
 #69

When toner sales men ship you a crate of toner cartridges you didn't ask for, and then sends you a bill for those toner cartridges, you don't have to send them back, and you don't have to pay for them either.  Welcome to the real world.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/supplies.asp

That's only because the law explicitly allows for this, as a way to prevent unscrupulous scammers from sending you things on purpose just to compel you to buy them.  It's a notable exception to prevent abuse of the mail for fraud.

If toner salesmen park a truck full of toner cartridges in your driveway, you don't suddenly own their truck and their toner, as the exception no longer applies.

Anything on my property belongs to me and I'd like to see them try to get it back.
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Mike Caldwell
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September 02, 2011, 06:07:32 PM
 #70

As far as 'who owns what', the blockchain has the final say. This is an underlying concept of Bitcoin.

Not true.  The blockchain is a record of who possesses what.  It is not a record of ownership or title.

If you send me 100 BTC for safekeeping, or loan me your car, I possess it, but you still own it.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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September 02, 2011, 06:09:12 PM
 #71

Its the fault of the guy that made the coding error, Not the fault of the guy that got the BTC accidentally.
...
Al it boils down to is this, Someone made an error and that error cost them alot of BTC.

Tuff luck.

This is not about whose fault it is. It's about being civilized and making things right. I think the money should be returned.. clearly a mistake was made.

If you accidentally receive too much change in a shop... what do you do? Take the money and run? If so: what are you, some sort of ape?

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September 02, 2011, 06:09:31 PM
 #72

Only if it was evidence in an investigation.

Not so.  It is unconditionally theirs.  They may ask for it back for any reason, and hold you liable for your failure to return it.  See on Wikipedia, "Conversion (law)"

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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September 02, 2011, 06:10:05 PM
 #73

Not a really relevant example, because the cost of compelling them to give it back vastly exceeds the value of the item you want back.  If what went through your window was a fallen piece of a jet airplane and the airline wanted it back, you would damn well have to return it.
Slight correction: You would have to return it, because you are a snivelling weakling slave collaborator to the nanny state. If anything of value landed on my property, you can be damn sure the feds would have to wrench it from my bullet-ridden corpse. This is an issue of FREEDOM. Have you ever even read Atlas Shrugged?

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September 02, 2011, 06:11:23 PM
 #74

When toner sales men ship you a crate of toner cartridges you didn't ask for, and then sends you a bill for those toner cartridges, you don't have to send them back, and you don't have to pay for them either.  Welcome to the real world.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/supplies.asp

That's only because the law explicitly allows for this, as a way to prevent unscrupulous scammers from sending you things on purpose just to compel you to buy them.  It's a notable exception to prevent abuse of the mail for fraud.

If toner salesmen park a truck full of toner cartridges in your driveway, you don't suddenly own their truck and their toner, as the exception no longer applies.

If those salesmen unload a pallet of toner in your drive way and drive off (just like delivering bitcoins) then yes, you do take ownership of them as the goods were abandoned on your property.
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September 02, 2011, 06:13:34 PM
 #75

I'm unaware of where the exchange is located, or what the laws there are... but couldn't you write off the loss on taxes?

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September 02, 2011, 06:14:37 PM
 #76

If toner salesmen park a truck full of toner cartridges in your driveway, you don't suddenly own their truck and their toner, as the exception no longer applies.

Anything on my property belongs to me and I'd like to see them try to get it back.

You could reasonably anticipate legal trouble trying to assert that position, but of course I doubt you really mean it.  Have you ever called a plumber or a repairman or had friends over?  And then asserted ownership of their vehicles because they were on your property?  I didn't think so.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
skilo
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September 02, 2011, 06:14:48 PM
 #77

Its the fault of the guy that made the coding error, Not the fault of the guy that got the BTC accidentally.
...
Al it boils down to is this, Someone made an error and that error cost them alot of BTC.

Tuff luck.

This is not about whose fault it is. It's about being civilized and making things right. I think the money should be returned.. clearly a mistake was made.

If you accidentally receive too much change in a shop... what do you do? Take the money and run? If so: what are you, some sort of ape?



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September 02, 2011, 06:14:56 PM
 #78

johnj, sliderider, JeffK, if I ever forget remind me that I should not ever have any biz with you.

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September 02, 2011, 06:15:00 PM
 #79

I'm unaware of where the exchange is located, or what the laws there are... but couldn't you write off the loss on taxes?

People are paying taxes on bitcoins?  Really?
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September 02, 2011, 06:16:13 PM
 #80

If those salesmen unload a pallet of toner in your drive way and drive off (just like delivering bitcoins) then yes, you do take ownership of them as the goods were abandoned on your property.

If they did so in error and you refused to make them available for them back when timely asked, you'd be liable to them for the tort of conversion (if not the crime of theft) just about everywhere civilized.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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