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Author Topic: Exchange accidentally sent 512 bitcoins after coding error  (Read 32366 times)
JeffK
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September 02, 2011, 06:16:44 PM
 #81

As far as 'who owns what', the blockchain has the final say. This is an underlying concept of Bitcoin.

Not true.  The blockchain is a record of who possesses what.  It is not a record of ownership or title.

If you send me 100 BTC for safekeeping, or loan me your car, I possess it, but you still own it.

But the proof lies in the blockchain, which says I did own them and gave them to you, in a way that looks exactly like every other transaction.

Unless, of course, you have an explicit contract involved identifying the transaction, but even then it is hard to prove.

I'm unaware of where the exchange is located, or what the laws there are... but couldn't you write off the loss on taxes?

Dangerous door you are opening up there.
The network tries to produce one block per 10 minutes. It does this by automatically adjusting how difficult it is to produce blocks.
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molecular
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September 02, 2011, 06:17:33 PM
 #82

Waking up to find 512 btc in your account =/= stealing/thieving.
He sold those Bitcoins shortly thereafter. So yes, it is stealing.

Transactions aren't reversible by design - those Bitcoins are now his.

You can't have it both ways people - you cannot have a system with 'no chargebacks' but call the lack of a receiving party to return mistakenly sent funds 'theft'.

Any and all rsposibility, if any at this point, falls on the programmer who coded this, not the person who received the funds.

This is a stupid way to think: "Oh, this grandma dropped her purse and it landed in mine. Well tought luck, it's her fault and now my money.", "This guy didn't lock his door, well, his fault, I can walk in and take his stuff, that's the physical world".

Of course we can have it both ways: on the technical side, a transaction is final. But it can well be reversed socially by making a new transanction to give it back.

If a friend lends you a 100-dollar-bill, the physical process of him giving it to you is not reversible. Yet you give it back, unless you are an anti-social asshole.

If someone accidentially give you a 100-dollar-bill, you give it back, unless you are some anti-social asshole.

Anyone who says "tough luck" or "coders fault" here, should go back to the jungle or maybe in jail. But probably even there, some decency exists.

This is sad. What has become of this once awesome community?

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johnj
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September 02, 2011, 06:18:44 PM
 #83

johnj, sliderider, JeffK, if I ever forget remind me that I should not ever have any biz with you.


Really?  I've agreed that it's ethical to return it, but both parties were being douches.  But somehow I'm untrustworthy?

Sorry guy if I don't roll with the mob mentality.

I guess its your choice to do business with who you choose.

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September 02, 2011, 06:18:56 PM
 #84

Irreversible transactions do not make honour, ethic and law irrelevant.

Shit, it just took me like 20 times more words to say the same thing. +1 vladimir and another one for hitting the nail on the head.

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JeffK
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September 02, 2011, 06:19:21 PM
 #85

johnj, sliderider, JeffK, if I ever forget remind me that I should not ever have any biz with you.


I totally agree that they should have been given back, and I certainly have the conscience to do so, but given the technology involved it can in no way be classified a 'theft', and depending on people to be honorable and do something the monetary system doesn't require does not make the basis for a solid and trustworthy economy.
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September 02, 2011, 06:20:58 PM
 #86

Waking up to find 512 btc in your account =/= stealing/thieving.
He sold those Bitcoins shortly thereafter. So yes, it is stealing.

Transactions aren't reversible by design - those Bitcoins are now his.

You can't have it both ways people - you cannot have a system with 'no chargebacks' but call the lack of a receiving party to return mistakenly sent funds 'theft'.

Any and all rsposibility, if any at this point, falls on the programmer who coded this, not the person who received the funds.

This is a stupid way to think: "Oh, this grandma dropped her purse and it landed in mine. Well tought luck, it's her fault and now my money.", "This guy didn't lock his door, well, his fault, I can walk in and take his stuff, that's the physical world".

Of course we can have it both ways: on the technical side, a transaction is final. But it can well be reversed socially by making a new transanction to give it back.

If a friend lends you a 100-dollar-bill, the physical process of him giving it to you is not reversible. Yet you give it back, unless you are an anti-social asshole.

If someone accidentially give you a 100-dollar-bill, you give it back, unless you are some anti-social asshole.

Anyone who says "tough luck" or "coders fault" here, should go back to the jungle or maybe in jail. But probably even there, some decency exists.

This is sad. What has become of this once awesome community?


This is an absolutely awful set of analogies.

The transaction is not only made, it is being verified as valid by peers. Therefore, in the eyes of those in the blockchain, it is indeed 'valid'
casascius
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September 02, 2011, 06:21:20 PM
 #87

Slight correction: You would have to return it, because you are a snivelling weakling slave collaborator to the nanny state. If anything of value landed on my property, you can be damn sure the feds would have to wrench it from my bullet-ridden corpse. This is an issue of FREEDOM. Have you ever even read Atlas Shrugged?

Last I checked, Ayn Rand wasn't ever a politician with the authority to write laws.  Ever remember what happened to the person who tried offering parts of the Columbia space shuttle wreckage on eBay?  Would getting penetrated by Bubba in prison be equivalent to getting penetrated by bullets in your view?

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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September 02, 2011, 06:24:48 PM
 #88

If a friend lends you a 100-dollar-bill, the physical process of him giving it to you is not reversible. Yet you give it back, unless you are an anti-social asshole.
That's a verbal contract with the explicit obligation to return the money.

Anyone who says "tough luck" or "coders fault" here, should go back to the jungle or maybe in jail. But probably even there, some decency exists.
This post? Here on the same forums where there are multiple pyramid schemes, ponzi schemes, scammers, admitted real estate fraudsters, and a BTC loan-bank that can't even get its customers to pay back their loans?

Really?  Huh

Last I checked, Ayn Rand wasn't ever a politician with the authority to write laws.  Ever remember what happened to the person who tried offering parts of the Columbia space shuttle wreckage on eBay?  Would getting penetrated by Bubba in prison be equivalent to getting penetrated by bullets in your view?

I've been reading these forums since before mtgox hit $30/btc, and RAND IS LAW here.
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September 02, 2011, 06:26:38 PM
 #89

Waking up to find 512 btc in your account =/= stealing/thieving.
He sold those Bitcoins shortly thereafter. So yes, it is stealing.

Transactions aren't reversible by design - those Bitcoins are now his.

You can't have it both ways people - you cannot have a system with 'no chargebacks' but call the lack of a receiving party to return mistakenly sent funds 'theft'.

Any and all rsposibility, if any at this point, falls on the programmer who coded this, not the person who received the funds.

This is a stupid way to think: "Oh, this grandma dropped her purse and it landed in mine. Well tought luck, it's her fault and now my money.", "This guy didn't lock his door, well, his fault, I can walk in and take his stuff, that's the physical world".

Of course we can have it both ways: on the technical side, a transaction is final. But it can well be reversed socially by making a new transanction to give it back.

If a friend lends you a 100-dollar-bill, the physical process of him giving it to you is not reversible. Yet you give it back, unless you are an anti-social asshole.

If someone accidentially give you a 100-dollar-bill, you give it back, unless you are some anti-social asshole.

Anyone who says "tough luck" or "coders fault" here, should go back to the jungle or maybe in jail. But probably even there, some decency exists.

This is sad. What has become of this once awesome community?

If someone drops a $50 bill on the street and I come along after they are gone and pick it up, it is mine. It is not stolen. It is lost. I am not liable for the other person losing their $50.
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September 02, 2011, 06:27:30 PM
 #90

@casascius, of course you are correct here. It's amazing how many ridiculous misconceptions about law most people have and how sure are they about own infallibility.

Note to self: never ever talk about law on forums (except consumeractiongroup.co.uk and likes), wrestling with pigs is not a good idea.


The law of kids is finders keepers, losers weepers for everything....what a PITA it must be to find out there is theft by disposition/conversion and minors are not exempt.Another problem for the kids is the law of finders keepers never existed for non treasures (http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/services/233/hisfind.html).

sliderider
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September 02, 2011, 06:34:07 PM
 #91

@casascius, of course you are correct here. It's amazing how many ridiculous misconceptions about law most people have and how sure are they about own infallibility.

Note to self: never ever talk about law on forums (except consumeractiongroup.co.uk and likes), wrestling with pigs is not a good idea.


The law of kids is finders keepers, losers weepers for everything....what a PITA it must be to find out there is theft by disposition/conversion and minors are not exempt.Another problem for the kids is the law of finders keepers never existed for non treasures (http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/services/233/hisfind.html).



We live in a society where the burden of proof is on the accuser. The loser of the item must prove that it is his. It is not the burden of the finder to prove that it isn't. In the absence of proof, the person who loses the item also loses the case. In this case the block chain proves the ownership of the bitcoins to be whoever is in possession at the moment.
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September 02, 2011, 06:36:17 PM
 #92

@casascius, of course you are correct here. It's amazing how many ridiculous misconceptions about law most people have and how sure are they about own infallibility.

Note to self: never ever talk about law on forums (except consumeractiongroup.co.uk and likes), wrestling with pigs is not a good idea.


The law of kids is finders keepers, losers weepers for everything....what a PITA it must be to find out there is theft by disposition/conversion and minors are not exempt.Another problem for the kids is the law of finders keepers never existed for non treasures (http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/services/233/hisfind.html).



Bitcoin=treasure therefore finders keepers applies.
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September 02, 2011, 06:38:39 PM
 #93

First it has no value, now it's a treasure?

greyhawk
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September 02, 2011, 06:39:48 PM
 #94

First it has no value, now it's a treasure?

Well, it's mined. Like gold. And diamonds.
Vladimir
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September 02, 2011, 06:41:43 PM
 #95

it's pointless arguing with people who are illogical

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sliderider
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September 02, 2011, 06:42:11 PM
 #96

First it has no value, now it's a treasure?

Who said it had no value? I never said that. The value is whatever the high bid price is on the exchanges. It most certainly has a value.
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September 02, 2011, 06:42:28 PM
 #97


He has no intention of returning the bitcoins.  He believes that he has no obligation to do so either legal or moral.

This failure was completely my fault and will not happen again.

And this mess has a link with the fact i still dont have  my 500 euros wire transfer on my intersango account, after your support has said to me i will have them on my account the 31st?
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September 02, 2011, 06:43:05 PM
 #98

I would definitely give the BTC back, but only after refusing and forcing the "exchange" to cry publicly about their own gross incompetence for a while.  Just giving it back lets them off the hook too easily.  Not knowing what the fuck you're doing while handling other people's money should have repercussions.
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September 02, 2011, 06:43:48 PM
 #99

From the OP, someone defending the receiver of the btc.

Quote
[04:53] <@Geebus> Not to split hairs, but Bitcoins are not a recognized currency in any country, and therefore hold no monetary value... I digress though.

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September 02, 2011, 06:44:15 PM
 #100

If someone drops a $50 bill on the street and I come along after they are gone and pick it up, it is mine. It is not stolen. It is lost. I am not liable for the other person losing their $50.

What? Really? You'd do that? You'd not be like: "hey, you lost 50 bucks".

Man, look up Karma, you poor soul.

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