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Author Topic: Exchange accidentally sent 512 bitcoins after coding error  (Read 32356 times)
Sief
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September 02, 2011, 11:09:25 PM
 #181

Hey Ben, did you get that 511BTC donation I sent you?

This is not a bitcoin address; do not send anything to it: 112sNU2PA3odvzvFvZtbu1tR2pr88ssrpk
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bitlane
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September 02, 2011, 11:09:37 PM
 #182

Quote
So called "expert witness" testimony has little value when the either the plaintiff or the defendant provides the "expert". ....
As opposed to the Lunch Lady providing them ?

I feel as though I stand overshadowed by the mental prowess of a 100+yr old schollar - I am truly humbled  Roll Eyes

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September 02, 2011, 11:10:17 PM
 #183

So called "expert witness" testimony has little value when the either the plaintiff or the defendant provides the "expert". They could be getting paid to testify in which case they will say whatever the person paying them wants them to say.

kid, go see some court hearing related movies or something.


All a competent attorney has to do is ask them if they are being paid to appear in court and that will cast doubt in the minds of any jury. Not only have I seen movies, I've served on juries. How about you? And I'm no kid. I'm probably old enough to be your father.  

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/v_to_z/witnesses_expenses_and_allowances/

Yea different country, I know, but it is the same everywhere, more or less. There is a horde of professional expert witnesses, who make living by being an expert witness for hire. Daddy.

I have not served on juries, but I won lawsuits by writing one paragraph of text.

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September 02, 2011, 11:11:57 PM
 #184

I'd just give them back because... well, I wasn't raised by shithead parents.  Ben Davis's behavior is reflective of parental failure.

THIS SPOT FOR RENT* | GPG ID: 4880D85C | 1% Escrow | 8% IPO/ICO Escrow services Temporarily Closed | Bitcointalk is the ONLY place where I use this name (No Skype/IRC/YIM/AIM/etc) | 13CsmTqGNwvFXb7tD9yFvJcEYCDTB8wQTS | Beware of these SCAM sites! | *Sponsored Link
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September 02, 2011, 11:17:22 PM
 #185

I'd just give them back because... well, I wasn't raised by shithead parents.  Ben Davis's behavior is reflective of parental failure.

LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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September 02, 2011, 11:18:54 PM
 #186

eh, its just monopoly money. I'd keep it.

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September 02, 2011, 11:21:55 PM
 #187

I'm curious about something.  A hypothetical situation.  If Ben was asleep while the coins were being sent to his wallet, which was stored in an encrypted file on his computer, and when he woke up, he couldn't remember the keys for decrypting that wallet file, would he still owe the sender the bitcoins?

Are you saying he could say he didnt get the money? Not in the bitcoin social contract. He couldnt complain about that in the normal course of business(as in 'hey I didnt get the bitcoins I paid for from buying bitcoins because I cant remember the keys to my wallet') and neither can he complain about it now. It all goes to the social contract that he voluntarily accepted. Had he notified the owner before, and said he didnt have his keys, then that would be on the owner. Can you imagine the owner saying he didnt get bitcoins from BenDavis on a sale because the owner forgot his keys?
bitlane
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September 02, 2011, 11:27:52 PM
 #188

What goes around, comes around...
Isn't there enough proof to boot this Scammer's Ass out of here for good ?

Does this community really need people who screw over those who strive to make BTC better by atleast offering services ?

Other than scamming 511 BTC, what has Ben Davis done for Bitcoin ?

How many developers will situations like THIS attract to the Bitcoin world ?

casascius
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September 02, 2011, 11:28:47 PM
 #189

If I were in Ben's shoes, even if I were a complete shithead, I would give them back for practical reasons.  So it doesn't cost me more down the road.

If six months down the road BTC becomes worth $100, this could become a $50,000 case rather than a $5,000 one.  Seriously!  At $5,000 it's questionable whether to bother with a lawyer in another jurisdiction.  At $50k, it's a no-brainer, a lawyer will certainly get involved.

When you deprive somebody of their property and convert it to your own use, you're liable for the damages you cause them.  If the BTC you took appreciate tenfold, that definitely counts as damages as well.  You as the thief / converter / etc. run the risk of being found liable for the dollar value of the BTC today or the dollar value of BTC when this finally catches up with you, whichever ends up greater.  That's just sort of the way things like this work out.

hopefully, Ben, you are either totally anonymous, or completely broke and forever unable to pay a large judgment against you.  That's about the only way you're going to be able to keep the 511 BTC that isn't yours.  Since phantomcircuit seems to say he knows who you are... I suppose I'm less worked up over this, cause I feel pretty good that this little forum thread isn't going to be the end of this for you.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
casascius
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September 02, 2011, 11:30:54 PM
 #190

I'm curious about something.  A hypothetical situation.  If Ben was asleep while the coins were being sent to his wallet, which was stored in an encrypted file on his computer, and when he woke up, he couldn't remember the keys for decrypting that wallet file, would he still owe the sender the bitcoins?

Are you saying he could say he didnt get the money? Not in the bitcoin social contract. He couldnt complain about that in the normal course of business(as in 'hey I didnt get the bitcoins I paid for from buying bitcoins because I cant remember the keys to my wallet') and neither can he complain about it now. It all goes to the social contract that he voluntarily accepted. Had he notified the owner before, and said he didnt have his keys, then that would be on the owner. Can you imagine the owner saying he didnt get bitcoins from BenDavis on a sale because the owner forgot his keys?

The fact that he took the bitcoins and acknowledges their receipt and professes his right to keep them, he's a little late for that.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
rennex
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September 02, 2011, 11:33:29 PM
 #191

When you join the bitcoin system you agree that spends are permanent and non-refundable. You essentially agree that any spends made from your account in error are all on you. It's like if you go to work for a company that requires a confidentiality agreement and then you go to their competitor and tell them all you know about how the other company does business and they find out about it and sue you. You can't claim 1st Amendment, freedom of speech as a defense because you signed away that right when you took the job and put your name on the confidentiality agreement.
This thread is already too long, but I just gotta respond to that. I think you have that comparison backwards. I know I haven't signed any contract regarding bitcoin. In your example case, the transfer of information to the competitor is irreversible, like bitcoin transactions are irreversible. That employer can't do anything to make the competitor un-know the secrets, so they might try to force them not to take advantage of the information by utilizing laws. Laws that are meant to keep some fairness in society, not to undo things that are impossible to undo. Then your stance would be comparable to "you can't claim NDA, that information was transfered and there's nothing that can be done about it".

Cash changing hands is also permanent and non-fundable, but that doesn't mean that if a huge wad of cash falls into your lap, you can't get in legal trouble if you don't give it back when the rightful owner shows up reasonably soon...
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September 02, 2011, 11:35:22 PM
 #192

I'm curious about something.  A hypothetical situation.  If Ben was asleep while the coins were being sent to his wallet, which was stored in an encrypted file on his computer, and when he woke up, he couldn't remember the keys for decrypting that wallet file, would he still owe the sender the bitcoins?

I would say no.

In this case, I would argue that he never had possession, and thus never had an opportunity to return them to the rightful owner.  By statute, and by common sense, in this case the theft wasn't the reception of the coins, but the willful failure to return them.

On the other hand, if they ever moved in the future, I would expect the defendant to end up back in court for theft, and possibly perjury.  No problem with the statute of limitations, because again, the crime happens when the defendant has an opportunity to return them, but fails to do so.

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joepie91
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September 02, 2011, 11:37:19 PM
 #193

I would have sent them back.  I also would never do business with someone I knew wouldn't.

But that's just me.  I've turned in wallets full of fiat cash to lost & found before, as well.

(edit)  I should have mentioned that it was also monumentally stupid to put code into live production without thorough testing.  That probably goes without saying, but I'm saying it anyway.  Seriously, guys, who does that?  Especially on a site that's dealing with a quarter million dollars or more worth of electronic funds...
The final stage of testing is using in production.

There is not a single testing stage that is as intensive as the actual use in production, and even if you have thoroughly tested, things can and WILL go wrong sometimes. The difference is that in this case, it's public in a forum thread, while in the case of a (fiat currency) bank, noone ever hears about it.

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September 02, 2011, 11:42:39 PM
 #194

LOL this thread is hilarious, Its funny to read all of the posts of people trying to strong arm this guy into returning the BTC.  Tongue

I'm curious at wich exchange did this happen? I didn't see it mentioned yet.

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DLowDAOG
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September 02, 2011, 11:46:58 PM
 #195

LOL this thread is hilarious, Its funny to read all of the posts of people trying to strong arm this guy into returning the BTC.  Tongue

I'm curious at wich exchange did this happen? I didn't see it mentioned yet.

intersango ... they are the ones with the shitty code.

And I know right?!  Strongarm is funny...  trying to scare.  WRONG!!!!!!!!!!  No one is getting scared.
casascius
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September 02, 2011, 11:49:24 PM
 #196

I'm curious about something.  A hypothetical situation.  If Ben was asleep while the coins were being sent to his wallet, which was stored in an encrypted file on his computer, and when he woke up, he couldn't remember the keys for decrypting that wallet file, would he still owe the sender the bitcoins?

I would say no.

In this case, I would argue that he never had possession, and thus never had an opportunity to return them to the rightful owner.  By statute, and by common sense, in this case the theft wasn't the reception of the coins, but the willful failure to return them.

On the other hand, if they ever moved in the future, I would expect the defendant to end up back in court for theft, and possibly perjury.  No problem with the statute of limitations, because again, the crime happens when the defendant has an opportunity to return them, but fails to do so.

It's called conversion (look it up on Wikipedia).  He probably can't be sent to jail for it, but he can be sued and be found liable for damages, attorney's fees, and (if he can't return the BTC themselves and must reimburse in USD), damages can include any appreciation of the BTC.  All he needs is an attorney to file a lawsuit.

Phantomcircuit, I would suggest you call his local police and file a police report, simply get a case number, make it clear that you simply want to file a report to document your complaint that this guy acknowledges having your property and is willfully depriving you of it and converting it for his own use.  Whether you actually call a lawyer is up to you, but if you decide not to now and significant BTC price appreciation makes you change your mind later, you'll be glad you filed this report.  Even if you do not live in the US, I am pretty sure you have standing to sue in a court in his local jurisdiction.

(My fingers crossed: hopefully an attorney who understands Bitcoin would take an interest in such a case, because it has the potential to result in a court affirming that Bitcoins have value - something that would be super good for Bitcoin)

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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September 02, 2011, 11:54:20 PM
 #197

Can you imagine the owner saying he didnt get bitcoins from BenDavis on a sale because the owner forgot his keys?

If you give me an address and make a deal with me that if I send money to it, you'll send me some widgets, and I provably put money in the address, then no, I don't care if you have the keys or not.  We have a deal and I held up my side, so you're in the wrong if you claim you didn't get your money.

Here's an address I don't have the keys to: 1KZ2Niypef5FZdycifLoofPZi7r1dC5QYf
If you can't control yourself and you accidentally deposit a bunch of money there, I hope you don't try to take me to court.
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September 03, 2011, 12:07:55 AM
 #198

What goes around, comes around...
Isn't there enough proof to boot this Scammer's Ass out of here for good ?

Does this community really need people who screw over those who strive to make BTC better by atleast offering services ?

Other than scamming 511 BTC, what has Ben Davis done for Bitcoin ?

How many developers will situations like THIS attract to the Bitcoin world ?

Whoa now, there is far from enough information for me to take a side here, but how exactly did he 'scam' the exchange out of these coins? You drop the S-bomb twice without merit. Semantics matter, even if your mtv and justin-bieber fried brain doesn't think so.

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September 03, 2011, 12:10:55 AM
 #199

I'm curious about something.  A hypothetical situation.  If Ben was asleep while the coins were being sent to his wallet, which was stored in an encrypted file on his computer, and when he woke up, he couldn't remember the keys for decrypting that wallet file, would he still owe the sender the bitcoins?

I would say no.

In this case, I would argue that he never had possession, and thus never had an opportunity to return them to the rightful owner.  By statute, and by common sense, in this case the theft wasn't the reception of the coins, but the willful failure to return them.

On the other hand, if they ever moved in the future, I would expect the defendant to end up back in court for theft, and possibly perjury.  No problem with the statute of limitations, because again, the crime happens when the defendant has an opportunity to return them, but fails to do so.

It's called conversion (look it up on Wikipedia).  He probably can't be sent to jail for it, but he can be sued and be found liable for damages, attorney's fees, and (if he can't return the BTC themselves and must reimburse in USD), damages can include any appreciation of the BTC.  All he needs is an attorney to file a lawsuit.

Phantomcircuit, I would suggest you call his local police and file a police report, simply get a case number, make it clear that you simply want to file a report to document your complaint that this guy acknowledges having your property and is willfully depriving you of it and converting it for his own use.  Whether you actually call a lawyer is up to you, but if you decide not to now and significant BTC price appreciation makes you change your mind later, you'll be glad you filed this report.  Even if you do not live in the US, I am pretty sure you have standing to sue in a court in his local jurisdiction.

(My fingers crossed: hopefully an attorney who understands Bitcoin would take an interest in such a case, because it has the potential to result in a court affirming that Bitcoins have value - something that would be super good for Bitcoin)

What makes you think the two are located in the same country?

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September 03, 2011, 12:15:59 AM
 #200

Also, anyone who thinks that a court will set precedent with this is retarded...in would open the doors for a veritable onslaught of e-currencies that the court system is completely unprepared to tackle. 'I'm gonna sue you for stealing my WoW gold and never delivering my +69 dragoncock sword". It's not gonna happen. One quick google of this clusterfuck and any judge will slap it off his desk as fast as they can.

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