[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[alz]

Pointless unwanted spam... Smiley

this thread is for Darkcoin related discussion, take it somewhere else please

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[alz]

For the first time ever, this week I have detected a sense of inevitability surrounding the prospect of Scottish independence.

If the UK isn't gone by the end of this month it's certainly holed below the waterline.

The argument has been comprehensively won. M Thatcher broke it up, we're just putting it out of its misery.

What has this got to do with DRK ?

Everything.

Great stuff! Now we just need to get rid of the Welsh, and Yorkshire!  

Lol!

how about the Cornish as well?  Not too keen on the UK down there either as I understand it.......

[georgem]

strange, today I run into a strange problem when I start the darkcoin wallet.

A few hours ago I added a 4TB harddisk to my computer. A new drive, as additional volume.
The darkcoin wallet and blockchain are on other volumes on the same computer, ...

But when I start the darkcoin wallet, I recieve a warning as described here (for bitcoin):
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=232343.0

Warning: Please check that the computer's date and time...

But my date and time is accurate. Sep 2, 2014.

Has anyone else experienced a similar error before?
Wallet works perfectly though, I sent some DRK to it an hour ago, and no problem.
It's just that I keep receiving a warning popup whenever I start darkcoin-qt

EDIT: Oops, forget it, I was one hour in the future, .... 

[coins101]

For the first time ever, this week I have detected a sense of inevitability surrounding the prospect of Scottish independence.

If the UK isn't gone by the end of this month it's certainly holed below the waterline.

The argument has been comprehensively won. M Thatcher broke it up, we're just putting it out of its misery.

What has this got to do with DRK ?

Everything.

Great stuff! Now we just need to get rid of the Welsh, and Yorkshire!  

Lol!

how about the Cornish as well?  Not too keen on the UK down there either as I understand it.......

All these new places I'm just learning exist outside of London.

Thanks.

[Propulsion]

This could be a distinguishing feature to create a moat (In the Warren Buffett sense) A perceptual moat and also a physical moat of certitude, if you connect through this you kids can no longer be exposed to pornography while utilizing the web system that supports the information used for daily business, such as goods and payments Think about a kid who looks up a toy online and gets directed to a sex toy with sexual popups or something like this, all of a sudden this would be avoided and this could be used as a selling point too.

Creating this would require a designated blacklist. It should be the end user's responsibility to create one for their own personal computers than to require a mandatory one on all users.

Eventually people will connect to whichever Internet they want to depending on what they want to do.

Exactly. Even if it was decided to impose censorship on the network, there would always be a way around it. Once again, it's better to let the end user decide on what content get's displayed to them.

we are open to compromise as long as the fundamentals of freedom we believe in stay true.

Once information becomes hard to obtain regardless of what it is, your freedom of information becomes moot.

We understand this could seem like a favouritism towards other kinds of industries, however we are not making a judgment on the specifics of any businesses

You are making a judgement by trying to purge adult entertainment industries from the get go. Personally, I like adult entertainment; it's natural.

Now do i prevent my own kids from watching porn? Absolutely! Yet that is done with my own internal home network not a global ban.

TLDR;

Basically Rando, while the idea is noble, it shouldn't be a requirement on a global basis. End users should take their own precautions on what type of content they and or others are exposed to.

[RenegadeMan]

You can not censor the networks; it's impossible. It would be better to have all traffic going through the MN's encrypted with no logging whatsoever by anyone. So even if someone is visiting a site/service that is untasteful, the MN operator would have no idea that it was used as such and also have plausible deniability of any connections outgoing from their exit node.

@Rando censor porn? You must be David Cameron. That's a slippery slope. First porn, then "terrorists", finally anything the state doesn't agree with. Terrible idea mate.

Hi Propulsion,

''you must be David Cameron''  That really got me laughing hahaha, thanks I needed that, its been a challenging morning and I'm really interested with what is happening in Scotland too

I promise I understand what you are saying even if I don't necessarily fully agree that deciding a specific vessel is not for a certain purpose is censure. It will be open source right? So what is to stop people from creating the same thing for pornography? And to have a few copies of that too... This could be a distinguishing feature to create a moat (In the Warren Buffett sense) A perceptual moat and also a physical moat of certitude, if you connect through this you kids can no longer be exposed to pornography while utilizing the web system that supports the information used for daily business, such as goods and payments Think about a kid who looks up a toy online and gets directed to a sex toy with sexual popups or something like this, all of a sudden this would be avoided and this could be used as a selling point too.

How are they censured? I would argue that such an idea wouldn't be about censure, its about organization of society which is still necessary in a decentralized society, you are most likely very conscious of this working on Darkcoin. Eventually people will connect to whichever Internet they want to depending on what they want to do. I could be wrong, but what am I wrong about? I believe there is so much potential in having Darkcoin become the world's currency but I also believe that there is a responsibility to do it right too, a responsibility to step up and say you know what, this isn't only about money, its about sustainability, we decided that we would do what was necessary to gain the people's trust and maintain it. We are dedicated to sustainable trust and cooperation between the people of the world.

 The governments have expressed their concerns so we will address those concerns, we are open to compromise as long as the fundamentals of freedom we believe in stay true. We understand that the government currently have a large say in these things and until things change for the better we are willing to compromise by defining the parameters of our net so that the beneficial changes that this technology can bring to the world are slowly introduced and spread to the people of the world in the most smooth and effective way possible while ensuring a strict standard for ensuring that peoples trust is maintained.... We understand this could seem like a favouritism towards other kinds of industries, however we are not making a judgment on the specifics of any businesses, we are just be conscious of the best way to proceed with such novel ideas in a manner that is transparent and respected by the population and taking into account the realities on the field.

Its a logical opinion Propulsion, its up to you guys...

r-ando....bump....(my response from two pages back). Like propulsion says, it's noble and all but you're seriously not understanding what this is about:

"r-ando I'm sure no one here would want to discourage your upbeat nature and enthusiasm (the world needs that) but I agree with cyanez, you seem to seriously have hold of the wrong end of the stick about what "DarkTor" will be for and what privacy/anonymity truly means. It's not an opportunity to "rid the world of that disgusting pornography" (my phrase I just penned but unfortunately the nature of your posts and the concentration on pornography are indicating you have a strong distaste for it and and moral desire to see it banned/removed/voted off so "rid the world of that disgusting pornography" is how you're sounding). Your suggestions along the lines of "well there's already the normal Internet for pornography so if we don't have it on the DarkTor, the government will at least strike DarkTor off the list as a place where paedophiles go" is such an unbelievably naive view I barely know how to try to describe why that is and help you realise that.

I think you've completely and utterly misunderstood what this concept is all about. "DarkTor" (or whatever it will be called) will be designed to be completely free, open and devoid of restriction. That means it needs to carry everything and anything without any form of censorship or collective voting. It needs to be "free speech" at its ultimate and enable humans to freely publish, view and have access to anything and everything. Anything less than this and it's a controlled system that no longer assures freedom. I know you'll be thinking "but what about child pornography?" Well to tack onto cyanez's freeway analogy above, we wouldn't think about closing down a section of road when it was revealed that some child pornographers were travelling on it with contraband child pornography in their vehicles would we? That would be ridiculous. Law enforcement needs to use other means to pursue and catch such criminals. Likewise we wouldn't consider banning cars for the same reason just because these same child pornographers used cars.

The DarkTor is to enable humans to operate without overarching monitoring and control by governments and big business. It HAS TO fundamentally be completely private otherwise the core essence of what this is about starts collapsing. Your concepts of voting for content are technically ridiculously cumbersome and socially, a complex disaster where, even with the best crypto signing techniques, all sorts of problems could be introduced to give some types of content (and people publishing it) an edge over other types. It would be unworkable in the extreme and people would simply develop all sorts of mechanisms to get around it. Without even going into the complexities of why it wouldn't work, if there was a voting system, someone would then have to vote on child pornography and by potentially having that image displayed on their device in order to cast a vote, they've effectively "downloaded" it and thereby committed a crime. To even think you could have a voting system is just fraught with so many technical and legal issues it doesn't warrant any further discussion.

I think you need to go do some study on libertarian thought around why the state is such a danger to human progress. I think you're missing much fundamental understanding about what this whole realm and DarkCoin's about and what the potential DarkTor would also be for."

[coins101]

Coins101 did you end up selling the car or investment property?

Doing a deal on the property. But it all takes so long. DRK will be $100 before I get done.

I did have it up for over 600k DRK. Now its like half that because the price has moved. Its all fucked up. I need to get trolling for the next few weeks.

Sell DRK, its a scam.

(WTS investment property for DRK, PM)

[AlexGR]

As far as darktor goes, I think it is perfectly reasonable to eliminate child pornography. If anyone has a host on darktor that has cp, I hope it will not be allowed. I believe it is ok to take a moral stand on issues and not hide from them under the freedom of speech/ well if we ban x then y,z, and all of alpha and half of that is up for discussion. No. Take a fucking stand. Child pornography hurts innocent people. Scars them. FOR LIFE. Don't equate the freedom one chooses to purchase drugs, sell images of their own bodies, etc., to the forceful filming of 4-8 yearolds, or 15 month olds, in sexual situations.

Why don't we completely eliminate the moral problems of MN owners by encrypting all data transferred and stored, so that MN owners don't what they transfer or what they have in storage or what others are accessing etc etc?

[AlexGR]

Hey! I've come across a few ardent Monero supporters the other day and we've gotten in this argument about whose technology for anonymous transactions is more advanced, DRK or XMR. What arguments do we have to shut them up?  

The obfuscating technology of ring signatures is superior in terms of anonymity compared to coinjoin-based solution. However it is impractical and doesn't scale, therefore rendering the cryptonote-based coins as something like proof-of-concept, rather than usable coins that can experience wide adoption.

Also note that superiority of ring-signatures does not automatically translate to something like NSA-proof level of anonymity. Both DRK and Cryptonote can be practically anonymous for any third private party that watches the transactions on the blockchain but both can be vulnerable to NSA-tracking. If you are an individual using either DRK or Monero for example, coupled with good IP obfuscation and a high-level mixing, nobody will find your transaction. The NSA though, might.

This means that on a practical level, the technical superiority of ring signatures cannot translate into a market advantage, as both coins are anonymous as far as third-private-parties are concerned, but they both are vulnerable to NSA-level resources (where monitoring networks and even hardware devices is a reality).

If DRKTor -or whatever it's named- is a good enough alternative compared to I2P or Tor, then DRK might become the only NSA-proof anonymous coin, as it will have covered the IP obfuscation in a sufficient manner that I2P or Tor hasn't. The fact that the IP obfuscation nodes cannot be sockpuppeted without significant cost, is quite a plus. However it will require a much greater degree of decentralization where Masternodes are installed outside "big" data centers known to cooperate with government agencies.

[alz]

As far as darktor goes, I think it is perfectly reasonable to eliminate child pornography. If anyone has a host on darktor that has cp, I hope it will not be allowed. I believe it is ok to take a moral stand on issues and not hide from them under the freedom of speech/ well if we ban x then y,z, and all of alpha and half of that is up for discussion. No. Take a fucking stand. Child pornography hurts innocent people. Scars them. FOR LIFE. Don't equate the freedom one chooses to purchase drugs, sell images of their own bodies, etc., to the forceful filming of 4-8 yearolds, or 15 month olds, in sexual situations.

Why don't we completely eliminate the moral problems of MN owners by encrypting all data transferred and stored, so that MN owners don't what they transfer or what they have in storage or what others are accessing etc etc?

There are no moral or legal problems with the current system as the MN owners have no way of gaining any info about the actual transactions that their MNs process.
the same would apply if the hypothetical darktor layer were added in the future.

[georgem]

You are making a judgement by trying to purge adult entertainment industries from the get go. Personally, I like adult entertainment; it's natural.

+1.

All those people who want to gradually take our liberties away under the phoney pretense that they want to protect society from the "evils of the world" are in fact the single most dangerous menace to human liberty.
In all human history moralists and puritans always tried to control the population by imposing insane moral rules on us. They want to tell you what to eat, what to drink, what to enjoy, who to marry, how to raise your children, etc... it's about control, and nothing else. Especially puritans are the worst of the worst, because they literally hate it when you enjoy your life too much.  

They are trying to manipulate us into feeling guilty or ashamed of things that are totally natural and have always been part of our lifes.

So let's just say NO to them.

We don't restrict our freedom to watch porn just because there is some child porn out there. How can a sane person even mention those two things in the same sentence?
We shouldn't let government spy on us, just because some of us could be terrorists. Terrorist is a bullshit term anyway. The american revolutionaries of 1776 were in fact terrorists in the eyes of the king of england. So... what gives?
We shouldn't believe government when it points to some foreigners and tells us: these people are your enemy, we must destroy them.
Because war is the health of the state, government ALWAYS wants to wage war against someone, because war is big business.

So let's just say NO to them.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

[coins101]

As far as darktor goes, I think it is perfectly reasonable to eliminate child pornography. If anyone has a host on darktor that has cp, I hope it will not be allowed. I believe it is ok to take a moral stand on issues and not hide from them under the freedom of speech/ well if we ban x then y,z, and all of alpha and half of that is up for discussion. No. Take a fucking stand. Child pornography hurts innocent people. Scars them. FOR LIFE. Don't equate the freedom one chooses to purchase drugs, sell images of their own bodies, etc., to the forceful filming of 4-8 yearolds, or 15 month olds, in sexual situations.

Why don't we completely eliminate the moral problems of MN owners by encrypting all data transferred and stored, so that MN owners don't what they transfer or what they have in storage or what others are accessing etc etc?

This is good. But what if it just makes it easier to store trojans and the like on the network?

[Propulsion]

You are making a judgement by trying to purge adult entertainment industries from the get go. Personally, I like adult entertainment; it's natural.

+1.

All those people who want to gradually take our liberties away under the phoney pretense that they want to protect society from the "evils of the world" are in fact the single most dangerous menace to human liberty.
In all human history moralists and puritans always tried to control the population by imposing insane moral rules on us. They want to tell you what to eat, what to drink, what to enjoy, who to marry, how to raise your children, etc... it's about control, and nothing else. Especially puritans are the worst of the worst, because they literally hate it when you enjoy your life too much.  

They are trying to manipulate us into feeling guilty or ashamed of things that are totally natural and have always been part of our lifes.

So let's just say NO to them.

We don't restrict our freedom to watch porn just because there is some child porn out there. How can a sane person even mention those two things in the same sentence?
We shouldn't let government spy on us, just because some of us could be terrorists. Terrorist is a bullshit term anyway. The american revolutionaries of 1776 were in fact terrorists in the eyes of the king of england. So... what gives?
We shouldn't believe government when it points to some foreigners and tells us: these people are your enemy, we must destroy them.
Because war is the health of the state, government ALWAYS wants to wage war against someone, because war is big business.

So let's just say NO to them.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

Well said Darkcoin gif creator.

Seriously though, if you'd like to discuss moral obligations or censorship there is an entire forum for it here. https://darkcointalk.org/forums/darkcoin-tor-network.56/
Please make a topic Rando. I'd be more than happy to discuss this with you.

[Propulsion]

As far as darktor goes, I think it is perfectly reasonable to eliminate child pornography. If anyone has a host on darktor that has cp, I hope it will not be allowed. I believe it is ok to take a moral stand on issues and not hide from them under the freedom of speech/ well if we ban x then y,z, and all of alpha and half of that is up for discussion. No. Take a fucking stand. Child pornography hurts innocent people. Scars them. FOR LIFE. Don't equate the freedom one chooses to purchase drugs, sell images of their own bodies, etc., to the forceful filming of 4-8 yearolds, or 15 month olds, in sexual situations.

Why don't we completely eliminate the moral problems of MN owners by encrypting all data transferred and stored, so that MN owners don't what they transfer or what they have in storage or what others are accessing etc etc?

This is good. But what if it just makes it easier to store trojans and the like on the network?

Doesn't work like that. It would be sending the information encrypted but once it reaches the end user the information would become plain text. Just like HTTPS.

[RenegadeMan]

You are making a judgement by trying to purge adult entertainment industries from the get go. Personally, I like adult entertainment; it's natural.

+1.

All those people who want to gradually take our liberties away under the phoney pretense that they want to protect society from the "evils of the world" are in fact the single most dangerous menace to human liberty.
In all human history moralists and puritans always tried to control the population by imposing insane moral rules on us. They want to tell you what to eat, what to drink, what to enjoy, who to marry, how to raise your children, etc... it's about control, and nothing else. Especially puritans are the worst of the worst, because they literally hate it when you enjoy your life too much.  

They are trying to manipulate us into feeling guilty or ashamed of things that are totally natural and have always been part of our lifes.

So let's just say NO to them.

We don't restrict our freedom to watch porn just because there is some child porn out there. How can a sane person even mention those two things in the same sentence?
We shouldn't let government spy on us, just because some of us could be terrorists. Terrorist is a bullshit term anyway. The american revolutionaries of 1776 were in fact terrorists in the eyes of the king of england. So... what gives?
We shouldn't believe government when it points to some foreigners and tells us: these people are your enemy, we must destroy them.
Because war is the health of the state, government ALWAYS wants to wage war against someone, because war is big business.

So let's just say NO to them.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

+1

Nailed it georgem!

It's these concepts I'm trying to get r-ando to investigate because he's speaking a language that is the epitome of what DRK is NOT about. Thanks

[oblox]

Coins101 did you end up selling the car or investment property?

Doing a deal on the property. But it all takes so long. DRK will be $100 before I get done.

I did have it up for over 600k DRK. Now its like half that because the price has moved. Its all fucked up. I need to get trolling for the next few weeks.

Sell DRK, its a scam.

(WTS investment property for DRK, PM)

I remember seeing you post this before. That would make DRK quite centralized if you hold an additional 600k on top of your already large stash. Just some food for thought considering the 600k would be about 14% of the total existing supply.

[RenegadeMan]

Coins101 did you end up selling the car or investment property?

Doing a deal on the property. But it all takes so long. DRK will be $100 before I get done.

I did have it up for over 600k DRK. Now its like half that because the price has moved. Its all fucked up. I need to get trolling for the next few weeks.

Sell DRK, its a scam.

(WTS investment property for DRK, PM)

I remember seeing you post this before. That would make DRK quite centralized if you hold an additional 600k on top of your already large stash. Just some food for thought considering the 600k would be about 14% of the total existing supply.

He'd be "coins601K+". Ha!

[darkproton]

Look, I don't consider myself a threat to human existence because I would like there to be a way to censor child pornography. That is all. I would like the right to choose as much as all of you here what to view. The inherent problem is that these are victims who were not given any choice as to whether their images in acts they were coerced or forced should be 'shared'. Let's step back and realize that there will always be moral obligations to a society for it's members. Freedom does not equal safety. Whether it is doable to censor seems to be a problem and I understand it may not be possible. I do believe, that if censorship is possible, cp should be censored and at that the only thing. There are those here who complain about their rights and the rights of society et al, but what about the rights of the abused, in this case I mean the victims of cp? They have been violated by a sex act and then by images or video being 'shared'. Think about it.
[addendum]I am only talking about cp, child pornography. The kind that I hope no one hear has seen and thereby does not fully understand the cruelty involved[/addendum]

[toknormal]

ClearingHouse

[RenegadeMan]

Look, I don't consider myself a threat to human existence because I would like there to be a way to censor child pornography. That is all. I would like the right to choose as much as all of you here what to view. The inherent problem is that these are victims who were not given any choice as to whether their images in acts they were coerced or forced should be 'shared'. Let's step back and realize that there will always be moral obligations to a society for it's members. Freedom does not equal safety. Whether it is doable to censor seems to be a problem and I understand it may not be possible. I do believe, that if censorship is possible, cp should be censored and at that the only thing. There are those here who complain about their rights and the rights of society et al, but what about the rights of the abused, in this case I mean the victims of cp? They have been violated by a sex act and then by images or video being 'shared'. Think about it.

Darkproton I'm as appalled as you by cp and the whole reprehensibly evil "industry" it represents. Yes there are real victims of this very dark part of human nature and yes, there are hideously nasty people profiting from it too. I wouldn't think there'd be anyone on here that doesn't abhor what cp does to its victims.

However, the minute (the very second) we start down this track of "filtering" or "combing" content for any evidence of cp we're on the slippery slope and before you know it, caught in the cross fire of a million considerations. Like, photo of teenager in sexy pose where she looks 18 but turns out to be 15...is that cp? Or photo of some kids innocently playing at a nudist beach...they're nude which (in my view) is completely innocent but there are many many people that would consider that borderline cp....do we filter that? Or what about a young child fully clothed but with a strong sexually suggestive pose...is that cp? Do you see the mess you'd end up in here?

For all these reasons the MN network MUST be completely and utterly free of ANY interference as to what content is on there. It's not for DRK to be making sociological rulings on what is and isn't appropriate. It's a private anonymous network: end of story.