Minotaur26
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 Offline
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
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August 26, 2014, 06:13:48 PM |
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Now the thing we might be interested in is the probability of someone just tracing a transaction without any malicious masternode involved, then we can use Evan's numbers from this post: Does this diagram mean that with 1 round mixing for 2 users - coins are traceable (related to ours) with 50% chance?
So in simplified model, to make our coins 99% chance untraceable we need to mix it with at least 99 other Darkcoin's users? Is it correct?
If DS+ works as intended it means that there's an equal possibility that either party could own the prior money from the viewpoint of the blockchain after 1 round of mixing. Even then there's plausible deniability from future transactions. With more rounds of DS+ things get much harder to track, for example 8 rounds of DS+, there's 2^8 users with an equal likelihood of owning the prior money (256 possible users). With 3 participants per join, there's 3^8 users (6561). DS+ just removes the blockchain as being used as proof that any user did anything with absolute certainty, which is our goal. Now remember you can send already mixed coins for additional rounds of mixing, now remember that even with a single round of mixing, you are basically just guessing since there is no direct link, and also the mixing and the spending are done at completely different times so you cant do timing analysis and check if some address decreased the same amount of coins some other address increased, that just wouldn't work with Darksend+. So I think you are left just with guessing and with any anonymity approach you take guessing is always an option, so that means in my opinion Darksend+ is as good as it gets while keeping a practical solution. Like AlexGR said you could do 16 rounds divided in two 8 round iterations in fact you can do 32 rounds divided in 4 separate 8 round iterations, nothing stops you from doing this if you are that worried. Since people seem to like edge cases, lets say we do 32 rounds of mixing with 3 participants, using Evans logic above that would be 3^32, that means there would be a 0.0000000000000053965% chance of someone tracing a transaction. This is all above my pay grade, but that is how I understand it, maybe others can confirm. As well as I get it, To simplify, let’s look at 1 round DarkSend with 2 participants Before: A(Alice)=16DRK B(Bob)=17DRK After - denominated to new addresses: X1=10DRK (50% they are Alice’s or Bob’s) X2=10DRK (50% they are Alice’s or Bob’s) X3=5DRK (50% they are Alice’s or Bob’s) X4=5DRK (50% they are Alice’s or Bob’s) X5=1DRK (50% they are Alice’s or Bob’s) X6=1DRK (50% they are Alice’s or Bob’s) X7=1DRK (50% they are Alice’s or Bob’s) Looks like it is problem with future spendings - if Bob decide to spend all his DRK with 1 transaction: X2 + X4 + X6 + X7 = 17DRK -> sent to some new address Such transaction will tell us with 100% probability that: X2+X4+X6+X7 = Bob’s coins and X1+X3+5 = Alice’s coins  So if I am not wrong - not to harm probability - amount of your future spending most be lower than the total balance of any user you a mixing with. Hope that with lots of participants and rounds - this probability will go reasonable low. But with lost of participants and rounds and denominations DarkCoin will face another problem - huge Blockchain’s size. Hope this problems aren’t fatal and have some solution. Dude the system does exactly what is supposed to do, yes you could be paying with legos, anon coins or fiat, if there is only a couple of people involved it wont be hard to guess, but even then there is no direct link in the blockchain. But this is not related to Darkcoin any anon solution now or in the future depends on having an active ecosystem behind it where transactions are lost in the mist. |
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Transactions must be included in a block to be properly completed. When you send a transaction, it is broadcast to miners. Miners can then optionally include it in their next blocks. Miners will be more inclined to include your transaction if it has a higher transaction fee.
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darkproton
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August 26, 2014, 06:34:32 PM |
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shojayxt
Trust: 0: -0 / +0(0)
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Today at 05:53:36 PM
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I never liked the idea of putting people on ignore, until I tried it. Not sure what he's saying but I'm sure it has something to do with derp-derp not a troll derp- I am a truther! derp herpaderp - listen to me! |
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Lebubar
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August 26, 2014, 06:41:38 PM |
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shojayxt
Trust: 0: -0 / +0(0)
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I never liked the idea of putting people on ignore, until I tried it. Not sure what he's saying but I'm sure it has something to do with derp-derp not a troll derp- I am a truther! derp herpaderp - listen to me! Don't know too what exactly he's saying. but sure it's bulshit and another bulshit. |
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blajde
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Pre-sale - March 18
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August 26, 2014, 07:20:24 PM |
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I don't want to sound like a whiner, but I'm going to whine, LOL. I don't get it, why is lightcoin worth $5.50+ right now? What the heck? Why? And darkcoin in a hole... yah.... And I really wish I understood statistics so I could figure out what the chances of being found out are for 3, 5 and 8 rounds of darksend? Finally, I agree with the guys above. Auditing takes a long time if you do a thorough job of it, and we (the community) wanted a job well done. Kristov has a moral obligation to us, foremost and primarily. His coins are his to do with as he likes, including selling off asap if he thinks they're not up to snuff so he can cash in before he sends in his verdict. How else are we going to pay him? This makes his obligation to us, though he gives his report to our CEO, our CEO did not pay him, and shouldn't control his loyalty, we should. Now I have a crazy idea. What would happen if you could, along with denominating your coins as it is now, darksend them with a front end mixer like it was? Man, I'd think that would be incredibly messed up! How could anyone/thing follow the bread crumb trail then? Also, I think I glimpsed a question about the blockchain getting bigger. Yah, I think it'll probably be getting.... guessing.... 5% bigger/faster than a "normal" block chain (pulling out of my @$$, but...) But the thing is, we're planning to have masternodes serve up the blockchain for our users (also will still need to be on hand for miners) So eventually, users will only need to use a lightweight blockchain while the miners and masternodes will keep the ledger decentralized and in check. (and of course, anyone else who wishes to keep a copy). Also, stonehedge, anyone could at least study the way DS works, or get someone they trust to look into it and get at least the idea reviewed for themselves. True, you can't see if the code has flaws, but you can extensively test it in testnet (without any risks) and see how it performs. So I think your financial dude is a bit myopic and not seeing the big picture. We are also a small community here. We know whom we trust (really trust) and it's as good as we can get it. Yet, I'll bet my life, yes my life, that we as a community can figure out whom to trust better than any business out there in the "normal world". All pump and dumpers are scammers trying to bleed newbs. That's the only way money gets into the system for them to win. They always hurt crypto coins when they do that as well, all cryptos. But there are bad players everywhere, and I dare say the subject is easily written on every wall, all over the floors and on the ceilings, so anyone who gets burned in that game should have known better. Point being, we have all kinds here, yet as in the real world (outside cryptos) we, as a whole, can figure out what's what  I think you're on the right lines TanteStefana but the thing is that for us to succeed with DRK, we need to attract people who might not necessarily know what a code review or open source is or actually means. These are the kind of people who need to be able to see an easy to use service and not need to know about how masternodes work or understand what Kristov comes out with. These are the people who need a method of payment like Darkcoin and decide to use it. Unfortunately, these are the people most at risk of FUD in my opinion. As for my banker friend, as JGCMiner points out, he has probably missed an opportunity to get in relatively early and as you point out he is being a touch myopic but that is the way he has to be. He isn't your average joe DRK user, he wants to buy 20k or 30k DRK and sit on them for a few years. For him to invest a similar amount into a startup business (which is his second hobby, after driving up London property prices) he would need to see a code review by somebody who didn't have a vested interest in the success of the business. Myopic for sure but rest assured that my banker friend (MBF from now on!) misses plenty of opportunities and also makes plenty of bad investments too. He has his rules and sticks to them. One of his rules is that compliance is non negotiable. I noted a few people up thread saying companies pay for auditors to come in and always will. That is correct but this is slightly different in that the auditor is independent and being rewarded by the potential success of the product he is auditing. It is not the same as Evan saying here's $2k to come and do a code audit. This is the DRK community inadvertently saying please come and review our code and if its good, you will earn a lot more money than if its bad. This is not cool in the real world. I only really raised it as an issue on this thread because I'm not sure if people realise what it could look like to potential investors/service users who might consider getting involved with DRK when they hear of it but don't know who Eduffield is and don't know their masternodes and DRK community from their asses. Anyway, this current low price stability is reassuring and I'm just frustrated that I'm as invested as I possibly can be and not have a divorce on my hands  The code review will be of value to darkcoin and to the community but I doubt it is going to attract much outside attention. This will come after RC5 when Evan and his compadres launch their marketing machine into full swing. We're still testing a new service and we are privileged to be involved so early on. Last time I contributed on here I caused offence by insinuating that some people were liars because they were reporting lost funds and bugs on here but refusing to report them to bitcointalk or on Jira. Sorry if I have caused any offence by opening a discussion on the code review. S ometimes it is good to look at something that you have emotional and financial investment in with an independent with experience (like MBF). I was just reporting back on his thoughts. For what its worth, he loves the masternode concept and will keep an eye on things in the future. I think he has a DRK price ticker on his phone and google news alerts set up now when doge is up 25% you know crypto is still a play ground and action is around the corner.. I would like to see the statistics on how many got into crypto before the age of 20. It does make sense.. DRK will be repumped since it's the perfect candidate. When DRK actually gets repumped for real I say bye bye 50$wroom....eeeeYhhrR Crash moon thx bye. As statistics shows you are not succesful as a trader if you are not learning how to trade downtrend, Crypto is for making money - The Miners. Crypto is for supporting and being a part of a righteous future. I'm rich. I don't care. I will play for this amount, these mind sets are currently in majority hence they are sitting with the money. The money that entered one way leaves in another, with dynamic tempus which is. If you are not init for the fundamentals you are either in it for the money, or money and fundamentals. IF you are in it for the money you will do good. If you are init for the money and fundamentals - you are a weak hand; you will trade with your heart and will switch crytpo as a teenage girl gets crushes on gay boy bands. You do not know how to trade in a downtrend and always greed out at a loss. If you are init for the fundamentals simply put up your node and go meditate. |
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shojayxt
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 896
Merit: 1001
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August 26, 2014, 07:34:15 PM |
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I don't want to sound like a whiner, but I'm going to whine, LOL. I don't get it, why is lightcoin worth $5.50+ right now? What the heck? Why? And darkcoin in a hole... yah.... And I really wish I understood statistics so I could figure out what the chances of being found out are for 3, 5 and 8 rounds of darksend? Finally, I agree with the guys above. Auditing takes a long time if you do a thorough job of it, and we (the community) wanted a job well done. Kristov has a moral obligation to us, foremost and primarily. His coins are his to do with as he likes, including selling off asap if he thinks they're not up to snuff so he can cash in before he sends in his verdict. How else are we going to pay him? This makes his obligation to us, though he gives his report to our CEO, our CEO did not pay him, and shouldn't control his loyalty, we should. Now I have a crazy idea. What would happen if you could, along with denominating your coins as it is now, darksend them with a front end mixer like it was? Man, I'd think that would be incredibly messed up! How could anyone/thing follow the bread crumb trail then? Also, I think I glimpsed a question about the blockchain getting bigger. Yah, I think it'll probably be getting.... guessing.... 5% bigger/faster than a "normal" block chain (pulling out of my @$$, but...) But the thing is, we're planning to have masternodes serve up the blockchain for our users (also will still need to be on hand for miners) So eventually, users will only need to use a lightweight blockchain while the miners and masternodes will keep the ledger decentralized and in check. (and of course, anyone else who wishes to keep a copy). Also, stonehedge, anyone could at least study the way DS works, or get someone they trust to look into it and get at least the idea reviewed for themselves. True, you can't see if the code has flaws, but you can extensively test it in testnet (without any risks) and see how it performs. So I think your financial dude is a bit myopic and not seeing the big picture. We are also a small community here. We know whom we trust (really trust) and it's as good as we can get it. Yet, I'll bet my life, yes my life, that we as a community can figure out whom to trust better than any business out there in the "normal world". All pump and dumpers are scammers trying to bleed newbs. That's the only way money gets into the system for them to win. They always hurt crypto coins when they do that as well, all cryptos. But there are bad players everywhere, and I dare say the subject is easily written on every wall, all over the floors and on the ceilings, so anyone who gets burned in that game should have known better. Point being, we have all kinds here, yet as in the real world (outside cryptos) we, as a whole, can figure out what's what I think you're on the right lines TanteStefana but the thing is that for us to succeed with DRK, we need to attract people who might not necessarily know what a code review or open source is or actually means. These are the kind of people who need to be able to see an easy to use service and not need to know about how masternodes work or understand what Kristov comes out with. These are the people who need a method of payment like Darkcoin and decide to use it. Unfortunately, these are the people most at risk of FUD in my opinion. As for my banker friend, as JGCMiner points out, he has probably missed an opportunity to get in relatively early and as you point out he is being a touch myopic but that is the way he has to be. He isn't your average joe DRK user, he wants to buy 20k or 30k DRK and sit on them for a few years. For him to invest a similar amount into a startup business (which is his second hobby, after driving up London property prices) he would need to see a code review by somebody who didn't have a vested interest in the success of the business. Myopic for sure but rest assured that my banker friend (MBF from now on!) misses plenty of opportunities and also makes plenty of bad investments too. He has his rules and sticks to them. One of his rules is that compliance is non negotiable. I noted a few people up thread saying companies pay for auditors to come in and always will. That is correct but this is slightly different in that the auditor is independent and being rewarded by the potential success of the product he is auditing. It is not the same as Evan saying here's $2k to come and do a code audit. This is the DRK community inadvertently saying please come and review our code and if its good, you will earn a lot more money than if its bad. This is not cool in the real world. I only really raised it as an issue on this thread because I'm not sure if people realise what it could look like to potential investors/service users who might consider getting involved with DRK when they hear of it but don't know who Eduffield is and don't know their masternodes and DRK community from their asses. Anyway, this current low price stability is reassuring and I'm just frustrated that I'm as invested as I possibly can be and not have a divorce on my hands The code review will be of value to darkcoin and to the community but I doubt it is going to attract much outside attention. This will come after RC5 when Evan and his compadres launch their marketing machine into full swing. We're still testing a new service and we are privileged to be involved so early on. Last time I contributed on here I caused offence by insinuating that some people were liars because they were reporting lost funds and bugs on here but refusing to report them to bitcointalk or on Jira. Sorry if I have caused any offence by opening a discussion on the code review. S ometimes it is good to look at something that you have emotional and financial investment in with an independent with experience (like MBF). I was just reporting back on his thoughts. For what its worth, he loves the masternode concept and will keep an eye on things in the future. I think he has a DRK price ticker on his phone and google news alerts set up now when doge is up 25% you know crypto is still a play ground and action is around the corner.. I would like to see the statistics on how many got into crypto before the age of 20. It does make sense.. DRK will be repumped since it's the perfect candidate. When DRK actually gets repumped for real I say bye bye 50$wroom....eeeeYhhrR Crash moon thx bye. As statistics shows you are not succesful as a trader if you are not learning how to trade downtrend, Crypto is for making money - The Miners. Crypto is for supporting and being a part of a righteous future. I'm rich. I don't care. I will play for this amount, these mind sets are currently in majority hence they are sitting with the money. The money that entered one way leaves in another, with dynamic tempus which is. If you are not init for the fundamentals you are either in it for the money, or money and fundamentals. IF you are in it for the money you will do good. If you are init for the money and fundamentals - you are a weak hand; you will trade with your heart and will switch crytpo as a teenage girl gets crushes on gay boy bands. You do not know how to trade in a downtrend and always greed out at a loss. If you are init for the fundamentals simply put up your node and go meditate. Repumped? So you agree that drk is a pump and dump? |
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toknormal
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188
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August 26, 2014, 07:36:27 PM |
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The last time I used Digital ocean I was kicked off by them for breaching the terms and conditions - "Excessive use of resources". They locked down my account and servers. I couldn't even get in to my own servers. After pleading with them they allowed me 1 hour's access to get my stuff off and then shut me out for good. For a masternode it might be ok (I was mining Maxcoin) but I'd be careful with them. |
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luigi1111
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1105
Merit: 1000
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August 26, 2014, 07:45:05 PM |
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doge is up 25% you know crypto is still a play ground and action is around the corner.. I would like to see the statistics on how many got into crypto before the age of 20. It does make sense.. DRK will be repumped since it's the perfect candidate. When DRK actually gets repumped for real I say bye bye 50$wroom....eeeeYhhrR Crash moon thx bye. As statistics shows you are not succesful as a trader if you are not learning how to trade downtrend, Crypto is for making money - The Miners. Crypto is for supporting and being a part of a righteous future. I'm rich. I don't care. I will play for this amount, these mind sets are currently in majority hence they are sitting with the money. The money that entered one way leaves in another, with dynamic tempus which is. If you are not init for the fundamentals you are either in it for the money, or money and fundamentals. IF you are in it for the money you will do good. If you are init for the money and fundamentals - you are a weak hand; you will trade with your heart and will switch crytpo as a teenage girl gets crushes on gay boy bands. You do not know how to trade in a downtrend and always greed out at a loss. If you are init for the fundamentals simply put up your node and go meditate.
Repumped? So you agree that drk is a pump and dump? Most don't like to engage with you, but I would just like to point out: "DRK was pumped and dumped" != "DRK is a pump and dump [scheme]". The former obviously happened. The latter is (apparently) still being argued about. |
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salmion
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August 26, 2014, 07:47:17 PM |
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8 months? One hell of a scheme. Dark is here to stay.
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TsuyokuNaritai
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August 26, 2014, 08:04:17 PM |
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(English version: http://en.rsf.org/reporters-without-borders-and-25-04-2014,46196.html) Journalists are an excellent target, if we can get them on board they'll help get the word out.Most of what the adult public learns about the big wide world has been filtered through the mind of a journalist before they learn it. If journalists can come to see us as a positive for their profession, this is a very good thing. |
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Minotaur26
Legendary
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Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
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August 26, 2014, 08:10:46 PM |
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I just wanted to bump this, I know of many coins that would be making an announcement of things like this, here you can just go into Darkcoin's Jira, Evan updated today and that bug camosoul was having was fixed, I hope he sees this. The point is, I haven't seen anything even close to this level of transparency in the altcoin world, other communities are left to guess and wait for the next powerpoint or pdf flowchart. Or they make an announcement about getting an announcement later, and when it finally comes is just generic pr claims without any specifics of how things are going to be accomplish or in what timeframe. If you are part of those communities and you are reading this you know what I am talking about, please, ask more of your developers, we should all ask more and help the crypto scene evolve and be more professional, stop giving your money away so easy or inform yourself and invest in projects like Darkcoin. |
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thelonecrouton
Legendary
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Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
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August 26, 2014, 08:29:56 PM |
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I just wanted to bump this, I know of many coins that would be making an announcement of things like this, here you can just go into Darkcoin's Jira, Evan updated today and that bug camosoul was having was fixed, I hope he sees this. The point is, I haven't seen anything even close to this level of transparency in the altcoin world, other communities are left to guess and wait for the next powerpoint or pdf flowchart. Or they make an announcement about getting an announcement later, and when it finally comes is just generic pr claims without any specifics of how things are going to be accomplish or in what timeframe. If you are part of those communities and you are reading this you know what I am talking about, please, ask more of your developers, we should all ask more and help the crypto scene evolve and be more professional, stop giving your money away so easy or inform yourself and invest in projects like Darkcoin. Yep, BCT is awash with threads full of angry gamblers (investors implies some level of calculation and intelligence) complaining that all their money is gone, because they drank the snake oil. |
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thelonecrouton
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
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August 26, 2014, 09:02:55 PM |
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Current MN count: 791 |
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chaeplin
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August 26, 2014, 09:11:02 PM |
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~
Your assumption is based on 1 round of Darksend+ Use 2 rounds.  Evan Duffield added a comment - 3 hours ago
Added a basic screen to configure Darksend+ on the first boot. It's very basic, has no calculations, but it does give some estimates and should be enough for a user without any understanding of how DS+ works. Configuration beyond that can be done with existing more advanced options.
http://jira.darkcoin.qa/browse/DRK-17 |
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Freckleg
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August 26, 2014, 09:34:03 PM |
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~
Your assumption is based on 1 round of Darksend+ Use 2 rounds. Evan Duffield added a comment - 3 hours ago
Added a basic screen to configure Darksend+ on the first boot. It's very basic, has no calculations, but it does give some estimates and should be enough for a user without any understanding of how DS+ works. Configuration beyond that can be done with existing more advanced options.
http://jira.darkcoin.qa/browse/DRK-17Cool! From working tech, to tech working for users. Keeps getting better! This is going to be so huge it is unbelievable! |
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thelonecrouton
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
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August 26, 2014, 09:46:27 PM |
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~
Your assumption is based on 1 round of Darksend+ Use 2 rounds. Evan Duffield added a comment - 3 hours ago
Added a basic screen to configure Darksend+ on the first boot. It's very basic, has no calculations, but it does give some estimates and should be enough for a user without any understanding of how DS+ works. Configuration beyond that can be done with existing more advanced options.
http://jira.darkcoin.qa/browse/DRK-17   Other 'devs' develop shitty PDFs.  |
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oblox
Legendary
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Activity: 1442
Merit: 1018
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August 26, 2014, 09:57:19 PM |
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Can someone please indicate the costs to run 10 Master Nodes (based on a recommended hosting solution) and roughly the amount of time involved each week, or month, to manage them.
Many thanks.
After they are setup, it's pretty much set it and forget it unless there is a mandatory update. As for cost, about $5-$7/mo per MN. |
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patrolman
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August 26, 2014, 10:00:03 PM |
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~
Your assumption is based on 1 round of Darksend+ Use 2 rounds. Evan Duffield added a comment - 3 hours ago
Added a basic screen to configure Darksend+ on the first boot. It's very basic, has no calculations, but it does give some estimates and should be enough for a user without any understanding of how DS+ works. Configuration beyond that can be done with existing more advanced options.
http://jira.darkcoin.qa/browse/DRK-17This is definitely an improvement. I wonder if it's possible to offer some information on masternodes, perhaps by hovering over the word, or some sort of help symbol. After all, some new users will immediately be confronted by a new term and may not choose any of the options before finding out what "masternodes" means. |
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Drobek
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August 26, 2014, 10:04:40 PM |
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Can someone please indicate the costs to run 10 Master Nodes (based on a recommended hosting solution) and roughly the amount of time involved each week, or month, to manage them.
Many thanks.
It would cost about 5$ for one virtual machine per month so 50$ per month for 10 instances at vultr (vultr.com or if you want to get me a beer you can hit the ref link - http://www.vultr.com/?ref=6806130) You could get a slight discount at http://vultrcoupons.com/, I think the giveme10 code may give you a free 10$ credit but not 100% sure if it still works. The last time I checked they were cheaper than Amazon's EC2 and the machines are great with fast processors, ssds & great download and upload speed plus they offer free images as well. Another great thing is there are no contracts - you start whenever you want, you end whenever you want and you pay by hour. And no I do not work for them but I do like them... but hey, read the reviews On average you will spend about 15 minutes updating a node after the update is out.. at the moment I have to update the MN once or twice a month but you get faster the more often you do it |
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