[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[HammerHedd]

You didn't read a word, did you?

Of course I did, but I'm failing to see the practical difference between simply handing a disproportionately large amount of the coins to a select few controlling entities, and awarding them the coins after a (mostly) trivial amount of mining.  You can theorize about the altruistic and right-minded nature of the founders and early adopters (and I'm certainly not saying you're wrong), but those same arguments could just as easily support pre/instamined coins.  At the end of the day, they control a significantly larger amount of coins than the amount of work they put into mining them relative to those that come later, regardless of what they choose to do with them.  

I should note that I'm not begrudging them the right to do whatever the hell they want with their coin.  I've never understood the people that bitch and moan about premined coins, like it was their God-given right to a fair shake for a particular coin.  Maxcoin is a great recent example. Personally I just vote with my hash power and go elsewhere if I don't like a coin or its profitability is low.  I like Darkcoin and would probably buy into it if I weren't risk averse and tend to avoid speculation.   

I think I understand what you are saying, and from one perspective, yes, more coins were mined in the beginning. So, people who mined them in the beginning have a larger share at the moment. I look at it as a way to achieve some manageable number of initial coins without personally favoring anyone - if you were willing to mine (and knew about it, of course), you could share int he higher rate as well. I think that is the main difference between premining - in which a select group of people get more coins - and variable difficulty - in which anyone could get more coins. Yes, some people had an "advantage" by being early adopters. If you had bought bitcoins when they were about $1 each, where they were a little more than a year ago, you would have an advantage now.

Bottom line, IMHO, the variable difficulty awarded people who were willing to jump in and participate early without the dev playing favorites. Mathematics and initiative are the only two things that gave anyone an advantage with darkcoin.

[AlexGR]

You didn't read a word, did you?

Of course I did, but I'm failing to see the practical difference between simply handing a disproportionately large amount of the coins to a select few controlling entities, and awarding them the coins after a (mostly) trivial amount of mining.  You can theorize about the altruistic and right-minded nature of the founders and early adopters (and I'm certainly not saying you're wrong), but those same arguments could just as easily support pre/instamined coins.  At the end of the day, they control a significantly larger amount of coins than the amount of work they put into mining them relative to those that come later, regardless of what they choose to do with them.  

I should note that I'm not begrudging them the right to do whatever the hell they want with their coin.  I've never understood the people that bitch and moan about premined coins, like it was their God-given right to a fair shake for a particular coin.  Maxcoin is a great recent example. Personally I just vote with my hash power and go elsewhere if I don't like a coin or its profitability is low.  I like Darkcoin and would probably buy into it if I weren't risk averse and tend to avoid speculation.    

I've not been here since day one, nor do I have serious hardware to mine - I just mine with my 2 PCs. Having said that, I think there is a tremendous difference between premine/instamine and a launch which says: These are the rules, these are the launch dates, if you want come and mine - and everyone can do that. If some come with more hashrate than others they'll also get more coins.

Now if some people didn't mine it's ok but they can't say that this equates with coins being somehow given to someone. I mean if I were here from the start, for sure I would have taken more coins. I wasn't here, I didn't mine them, so tough luck. Same with bitcoin. I wasn't there in 2009* and thus I'm not a BTC millionaire buying 10.000 btc pizzas with cpu mining. Compared to the cpu mining rates of early bitcoin adopters and what people get today after having to buy ASIC monsters, these were like gods of mining / instaminers... But who says that? Everyone is like "oh man, I wish I was there to mine some".

Even so, when DRK hit the markets, even for someone who hadn't mined, they could get it for like 1/100th of what it now costs directly from the miners and in ample quantity like tens of thousands of DRK. Now, after this second chance, who's to blame again?


* What you said with: "At the end of the day, they control a significantly larger amount of coins than the amount of work they put into mining them relative to those that come later, regardless of what they choose to do with them" can be said for practically every coin that became successful later on, including btc, ltc, etc.

[AlexGR]

I would be very happy with 98% accepted shares.  My reject rate mining darkcoin is currently 4 to 5% (95% accepted).  The only coin ever been better than that for me is litecoin.

Cpu mining or gpu?

[Piranha771]

Hey, I just started my Miner and getting 1.7mh/s from my GPU, but it dosen't commit any shares.
This is what the log looks like.

Code:

[21:02:36] Probing for an alive pool
[21:02:36] No servers were found that could be used to get work from.
[21:02:36] Please check the details from the list below of the servers you have
input
[21:02:36] Most likely you have input the wrong URL, forgotten to add a port, or
 have not set up workers
[21:02:36] Pool: 0  URL: stratum+tcp://m.drk.yobapool.net:3333  User: xxxxx
.w1  Password: xxxxx
[21:02:36] Press any key to exit, or sgminer will try again in 15s.
[21:02:36] (null) difficulty changed to 0.003906
[21:02:46] Waiting for work to be available from pools.
[21:02:51] Network diff set to 225
[21:02:51] Work available from pools, resuming.

I detects when there are new block, but it dosen't seem to do anything.
Can somebody tell me whats wrong here?

Nevermind. The SPH-sgminer version is working for me

[drakoin]

• Block reward is controlled by moore's law: (11111 / (((Difficulty+51)/6) ^ 2))

Please help me to understand.
http://explorer.darkcoin.io/block/00000000000295e2ecbbeb3b69f1ff9aaf24d2aebaefd534cfd22857e668d0a1
Block 22067:
Difficulty: 57527.019
Generation: 22 + 0.004 total fees
11111 / (((Difficulty+51)/6) ^ 2  =
11111 / (((57527.019+51)/6) ^ 2 =
= 1.207 * 10 ^ -4
!= 22
So I understand the block reward formula in the wrong way. Please explain.
Also, as 22 is a whole number, there needs to be an INT() or round(__,0) somewhere
thanks :-)

The GPU formula is a bit different, we switched to it when they became available via blockchain folk. It's 2222222/(((x+2600)/9)^2)  and it's modeled to better represent the variance of difficulty that they bring to our mining pools. i.e, under CPUs a move from 1 to 10 difficulty was large, but under GPUs a move from 100 to 110 is nothing.

Thanks for the explanations. Very interesting approach to couple block reward and difficulty directly.


Yes, now I could calculate it. It's 22.3382606 though, not 22.

Where is the INT() ?


The formula got changed - please correct posting #1 of this thread.

And the block explorer is telling nonsense - Difficulty: 57527.019

[xorpheus]

I would be very happy with 98% accepted shares.  My reject rate mining darkcoin is currently 4 to 5% (95% accepted).  The only coin ever been better than that for me is litecoin.

Cpu mining or gpu?

GPU, but that shouldn't make any difference right?  Share rejection is about timing and network propagation delays, assuming your miner is working properly and all shares would have been valid had a new block not just been found somewhere else on the network.

[eduffield]

• Block reward is controlled by moore's law: (11111 / (((Difficulty+51)/6) ^ 2))

Please help me to understand.
http://explorer.darkcoin.io/block/00000000000295e2ecbbeb3b69f1ff9aaf24d2aebaefd534cfd22857e668d0a1
Block 22067:
Difficulty: 57527.019
Generation: 22 + 0.004 total fees
11111 / (((Difficulty+51)/6) ^ 2  =
11111 / (((57527.019+51)/6) ^ 2 =
= 1.207 * 10 ^ -4
!= 22
So I understand the block reward formula in the wrong way. Please explain.
Also, as 22 is a whole number, there needs to be an INT() or round(__,0) somewhere
thanks :-)

The GPU formula is a bit different, we switched to it when they became available via blockchain folk. It's 2222222/(((x+2600)/9)^2)  and it's modeled to better represent the variance of difficulty that they bring to our mining pools. i.e, under CPUs a move from 1 to 10 difficulty was large, but under GPUs a move from 100 to 110 is nothing.

Thanks for the explanations. Very interesting approach to couple block reward and difficulty directly.


Yes, now I could calculate it. It's 22.3382606 though, not 22.

Where is the INT() ?


The formula got changed - please correct posting #1 of this thread.

And the block explorer is telling nonsense - Difficulty: 57527.019

The variable is an INT it's calculated in. I'll look into the diff later, thanks.

[AlexGR]

I would be very happy with 98% accepted shares.  My reject rate mining darkcoin is currently 4 to 5% (95% accepted).  The only coin ever been better than that for me is litecoin.

Cpu mining or gpu?

GPU, but that shouldn't make any difference right?  Share rejection is about timing and network propagation delays, assuming your miner is working properly and all shares would have been valid had a new block not just been found somewhere else on the network.

It does make a difference. You are probably using too high an intensity on the miner which renders it less interactive. Thus it's wasting time on obsolete workload. Decrease your intensity and KH/s and get more money by actually submitting more relevant data.

The ultimate measure of success is not KH/s but rather how much A: difficulty per hour you have. The converted sgminer doesn't have A: but lower your hashrate until you hit <1% in rejects (unless you are losing insane amounts of kh/s).

I know you think that "but if I have 5% more hashrate then I won't care about the 5% rejects" but you are not only wasting processing time on those shares that were actually rejected, but also to those works which never solved the share and never sent it. When a change of block occurs you need the GPU to be interactive (lower intensity) in order to get instructions to change its workload to something else. If its taking like 3 seconds for the GPU to take the signal, you've wasted these 3 seconds processing outdated crap - whether you solve something and submit it as outdated share, or not solve it and move on to the next.

The high intensity & rejection problem is higher if you go to coins with block issuing in 1m or 30secs and less severe in coins like Lite or Dark with 2.5m.

[eizh]

So what's the rationale for this block reward system? (11111 / (((Difficulty+51)/6) ^ 2))

As I understand it, the TOTAL distribution per unit time will come crashing down as network hashrate goes up. Not to mention each miner is getting a tinier slice. That's rather discouraging.

Apart from Darksend, I think this is the best feature of the coin. All other altcoins become diluted if they doesn't become a instant success like Dogecoin.

So the early adopter edge becomes even more overwhelming? Nice way to kill a coin. An exchange medium is only worth something if others agree and also have a stake. We'll just end up a small group of hoarders waiting around for something to happen. Reminds me of QRK.

That is overstating things. Reading through the thread, it is abundantly clear that the devs and other early adopters believe in the coin and are not planning a massive dump.  

IMO this is a feature -- not a problem or a scam.  Basically, it allows for the devs to have a more fine control over how the coin is released into the market; and thus prevents a “mid-life” dump via multipools and whale miners that troubles many a coin once the price starts to rise.  As mentioned above, if a coin is super-popular from the beginning like Doge then there is no problem as it gets distributed to a wide range of miners.  Even if whales or whatnot show up later there is a big enough dedicated mining community that in effect prevents these entities from negatively effecting the market.  

On the other hand, coins that don't blow up from the beginning and slowly rise in price due to the efforts of the early adopters, inevitably get attacked by these whales/mutlipools -- and the diff increase alone never seems to be enough to prevent a ton of coins of entering the hands of the few.  When these coins get dumped... the market crashes.  The way Darkcoin is currently set up this cannot happen.  And yes, even though Darkcoin is multipool resistant – it is still vulnerable to whales (it was actually getting hammered before the diff /reward system was enhanced by KGW).

Now, I know it may seem unfair to latecomer miners and some trolls even went as far as trying to discourage people by calling this a instamine. But the thing is... the vast majority of coins have a high percentage owned by early adopters.  That is the reward they get for believing in the coin before anybody else.  Due to the diff/reward system Darkcoin might be a little more extreme, but as I just explained that system has a very important purpose.

Lastly, it is not like the devs are not willing to respond.  Take a look at the diff/reward chart below.  

The blue line is actually a hardfork that was put in place a couple of weeks ago to be ready for GPU miners (GPU client first released last week) so that reward wouldn't drop to zero once the hash power went through the roof.  

Tldr; This is a fair coin. The diff/reward is a feature that allows more fine control over how much coin is released into the market and thus prevents manipulation by whales who plan to dump.

Ah, okay, I didn't realize we were on a new equation because the first post hasn't been edited to reflect the change. I joined after GPU mining happened and the +51 in the denominator looked absurd and short-sighted to me considering diff is already over 200.

[MyFarm]

I meant transactions like 10.25636012 what happens to the .00636012 if you're only going down to two decimal places, and won't that make the .00636012 easy to track?

With that implementation there must be rounding to the lowest denomination, so the payment would be 10.25 or 10.256. I think the smallest denomination should be about a penny in value, so if the price rises we could add lower denominations.

If Darkcoin appreciates like we all hope it will, I'm guessing you will wish you went out a couple more decimal places early on.

[bigc1984]

Price is staying steady. It might appear like it has gone down slightly on Poloniex but it hasn't. Bitcoins value went up.

[Benchman]

Ok guys, pool.darkcoin.io locked my account for no reason. I tried to contact them twice via email but no response.

I dont care about account, but i have ~25 darkcoins there. That's 2 week mining for me!

So i need advice, how to contact, who is responsible?

Thanks.

[CHAOSiTEC]

Ok guys, pool.darkcoin.io locked my account for no reason. I tried to contact them twice via email but no response.

I dont care about account, but i have ~25 darkcoins there. That's 2 week mining for me!

So i need advice, how to contact, who is responsible?

Thanks.

give them time to respond is the first thing you need to do, the pool owner, is also the coin dev... so breathe easy :-)

[ress]

Just a quick word for the people worried of the reduced block reward: I have a 1.7 Mh/s scrypt mining rig. Mining DRK I get 6.5 Mh/s which will give me around 12 DRK, worth around 0.022 BTC. That's not bad at all! (I don't mine DRK to make BTC though. If I were, I would join the mindless drones at middlecoin.)

My point is: it's still very profitable to mine one of the most promising altcoins for a long time. Price will increase!

The only thing new followers has to worry about is that the darkcoin hard core fans will dump on them. And from what I've learned, that is VERY rare. Even though the coin is completely dead, most of them will hold most of their coins (stablecoin is a recent example). What you should be worried about is multipools, and as mentioned earlier darkcoin is 'multipool resistant' for now.

Cheer up and mine away  

[xorpheus]

I would be very happy with 98% accepted shares.  My reject rate mining darkcoin is currently 4 to 5% (95% accepted).  The only coin ever been better than that for me is litecoin.

Cpu mining or gpu?

GPU, but that shouldn't make any difference right?  Share rejection is about timing and network propagation delays, assuming your miner is working properly and all shares would have been valid had a new block not just been found somewhere else on the network.

It does make a difference. You are probably using too high an intensity on the miner which renders it less interactive. Thus it's wasting time on obsolete workload. Decrease your intensity and KH/s and get more money by actually submitting more relevant data.

The ultimate measure of success is not KH/s but rather how much A: difficulty per hour you have. The converted sgminer doesn't have A: but lower your hashrate until you hit <1% in rejects (unless you are losing insane amounts of kh/s).

I know you think that "but if I have 5% more hashrate then I won't care about the 5% rejects" but you are not only wasting processing time on those shares that were actually rejected, but also to those works which never solved the share and never sent it. When a change of block occurs you need the GPU to be interactive (lower intensity) in order to get instructions to change its workload to something else. If its taking like 3 seconds for the GPU to take the signal, you've wasted these 3 seconds processing outdated crap - whether you solve something and submit it as outdated share, or not solve it and move on to the next.

The high intensity & rejection problem is higher if you go to coins with block issuing in 1m or 30secs and less severe in coins like Lite or Dark with 2.5m.

Never assume you know more than whom you are talking to  Okay, yes CPU vs GPU makes a difference if you don't know how to tune a GPU.  My reject rates are due to my location, probably should have added that.

[eduffield]

Ok guys, pool.darkcoin.io locked my account for no reason. I tried to contact them twice via email but no response.

I dont care about account, but i have ~25 darkcoins there. That's 2 week mining for me!

So i need advice, how to contact, who is responsible?

Thanks.

That's my pool, shoot me a PM with your user info and I'll unlock it.

[Acidyo]

Ok guys, pool.darkcoin.io locked my account for no reason. I tried to contact them twice via email but no response.

I dont care about account, but i have ~25 darkcoins there. That's 2 week mining for me!

So i need advice, how to contact, who is responsible?

Thanks.

That's my pool, shoot me a PM with your user info and I'll unlock it.

Just out of curiosity, how much darkcoins do you make /day running one of the big pools?

I've tried to get my linux friend to start mining pools with me but he insists that it's not worth it.

I'm pretty sure it is if you are there early and for the right coin.

[xorpheus]

Price is staying steady. It might appear like it has gone down slightly on Poloniex but it hasn't. Bitcoins value went up.

So often I wish there was a source of alt coin charts that show the value in something more stable and meaningful than bitcoin, like USD or oil or gold.  I know they are traded for bitcoin mostly but I constantly have to mentally compensate for what bitcoin itself is doing.

[AlexGR]

I would be very happy with 98% accepted shares.  My reject rate mining darkcoin is currently 4 to 5% (95% accepted).  The only coin ever been better than that for me is litecoin.

Cpu mining or gpu?

GPU, but that shouldn't make any difference right?  Share rejection is about timing and network propagation delays, assuming your miner is working properly and all shares would have been valid had a new block not just been found somewhere else on the network.

It does make a difference. You are probably using too high an intensity on the miner which renders it less interactive. Thus it's wasting time on obsolete workload. Decrease your intensity and KH/s and get more money by actually submitting more relevant data.

The ultimate measure of success is not KH/s but rather how much A: difficulty per hour you have. The converted sgminer doesn't have A: but lower your hashrate until you hit <1% in rejects (unless you are losing insane amounts of kh/s).

I know you think that "but if I have 5% more hashrate then I won't care about the 5% rejects" but you are not only wasting processing time on those shares that were actually rejected, but also to those works which never solved the share and never sent it. When a change of block occurs you need the GPU to be interactive (lower intensity) in order to get instructions to change its workload to something else. If its taking like 3 seconds for the GPU to take the signal, you've wasted these 3 seconds processing outdated crap - whether you solve something and submit it as outdated share, or not solve it and move on to the next.

The high intensity & rejection problem is higher if you go to coins with block issuing in 1m or 30secs and less severe in coins like Lite or Dark with 2.5m.

Never assume you know more than whom you are talking to  Okay, yes CPU vs GPU makes a difference if you don't know how to tune a GPU.  My reject rates are due to my location, probably should have added that.

Yeah I don't like to presume things but I'm doing arguing-counterarguing myself for saving time on discussion....

Personally I really, really, really doubt it has to do with location. It affects for sure, but only if your connection is lagging in terms of seconds. Otherwise, even if you are connected from the most remote part of the planet you'll still have 300-400ms ping times which is not enough to raise stales to 5%. I have 0.2s ping times and I'm like at 0.5% reject rate. When I emulate further delay by increasing bandwidth load in my adsl line, I don't get significantly more. So latency is clearly a lesser issue.

Run a cpuminer for a test and check its stales. If it's the same percentage after a day, you are right. If not, there's something wrong with GPU settings.

[MyFarm]

Awful lot of selling going on right now