[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[eizh]

I think more useful would be the ability to also send small, twitter-sized messages instead of just transactions via darksend. Imagine that you could combine a transaction with a message or something like that. Hash the characters together and send it like a transaction, and all of a sudden, you have a really well encrypted, anonymous message system that overlays on an existing network.

This compromises anonymity (unless the message is utterly generic, in which case there's no reason to send it). You could argue that it's one person voluntarily compromising his/her own anonymity but because of the way DarkSend works, they're chipping away at the anonymity of everyone else involved in the mixing.

I don't think you get it, the message would be encrypted with the coin or address or something, so that when  the receiver gets the coin, they can see who it came from and why or whatever short message you want to send, a purchase order reminder, etc...

Certainly the person receiving the message should know why the money arrived, just not the rest of the world!

Oh, I see. Hmm.. so how would the implementation work? As far as I understand, DarkSend is not just a trick -- the transactions really do get mixed up in the intermediate pool before being split up to be sent to the receivers. So any message must also get lost if the coins are fungible, right?

[1714720346]

1714720346

[eizh]

Yeah, I'm a cheap date... after posting that I just transferred 2.5 btc into Cryptsy. Prepare for a bump in a few confirms, i'm taking this fucker to 15000

Aw man, and here I am waiting for my BTC delivery again.

Oh well, I'm just gonna keep buying daily. High, low, doesn't matter. It'll all look like noise in a year or two.

[AlexGR]

won't sending multiple transactions to your self bloat the blockchain?

Are you talking about denominate? It's just one transaction and it takes your whole wallet and converts the inputs into DarkSend compatible inputs. Say for example you have 123DRK, it would create ONE transaction that allowed you to DarkSend 9 times. Then you would need to run it again when you ran out of compatible inputs.

Can that be turned into a button or something?  I think it's ... well, more frightening than anything, for a "normal" person to issue commands in the debug console.  Also, they'd have to remember the word (I've forgotten it, LOL, had to do a -help and go through the list)  a warning could come up if they no longer have their funds properly denominated, and it can just say, please push the denominate button etc...

+1... Everything that is not automated, is a "coin weakness" that a clone can use to improve upon.

This can be used in a number of ways. For example:

If DarkSend is implemented but it's "hard to use" a clone can come up and make it "easy to use".
If DarkSend is the only layer of anonymity, a clone can come up and say "we offer both DarkSend and IP obfuscation"
If DarkSend works only by the client being online, a clone can come up and say "we fixed the offline functionality, the user can issue the command and close the client or experience a power shutdown - knowing that the money will be transferred safely".

...if you want to be the leading anonymous cryptocurrency, you must already incorporate the improvements that others will be willing to make, in order to eliminate their "market" from the get go. Because, ultimately, a shitclone is as good as the answer to the question of "what is it that you provide that the others do not?"

[watuba]

won't sending multiple transactions to your self bloat the blockchain?

Are you talking about denominate? It's just one transaction and it takes your whole wallet and converts the inputs into DarkSend compatible inputs. Say for example you have 123DRK, it would create ONE transaction that allowed you to DarkSend 9 times. Then you would need to run it again when you ran out of compatible inputs.

Can that be turned into a button or something?  I think it's ... well, more frightening than anything, for a "normal" person to issue commands in the debug console.  Also, they'd have to remember the word (I've forgotten it, LOL, had to do a -help and go through the list)  a warning could come up if they no longer have their funds properly denominated, and it can just say, please push the denominate button etc...

+1... Everything that is not automated, is a "coin weakness" that a clone can use to improve upon.

For example:

If DarkSend is implemented but it's "hard to use" a clone can come up and make it "easy to use".
If DarkSend is the only layer of anonymity, a clone can come up and say "we offer both DarkSend and IP obfuscation"
If DarkSend works only by the client being online, a clone can come up and say "we fixed the offline functionality, the user can issue the command and close the client or experience a power shutdown - knowing that the money will be transferred safely".

...if you want to be the leading anonymous cryptocurrency, you must already incorporate the improvements that others will be willing to make, in order to eliminate their "market" from the get go. Because, ultimately, a shitclone is as good as the answer to the question of "what is it that you provide that the others do not?"

I assume in the public non-beta version, you'll just check the box for darksend(or all transactions will be dark), and it'll automatically denominate and send for you?

[AlexGR]

won't sending multiple transactions to your self bloat the blockchain?

Are you talking about denominate? It's just one transaction and it takes your whole wallet and converts the inputs into DarkSend compatible inputs. Say for example you have 123DRK, it would create ONE transaction that allowed you to DarkSend 9 times. Then you would need to run it again when you ran out of compatible inputs.

Can that be turned into a button or something?  I think it's ... well, more frightening than anything, for a "normal" person to issue commands in the debug console.  Also, they'd have to remember the word (I've forgotten it, LOL, had to do a -help and go through the list)  a warning could come up if they no longer have their funds properly denominated, and it can just say, please push the denominate button etc...

+1... Everything that is not automated, is a "coin weakness" that a clone can use to improve upon.

For example:

If DarkSend is implemented but it's "hard to use" a clone can come up and make it "easy to use".
If DarkSend is the only layer of anonymity, a clone can come up and say "we offer both DarkSend and IP obfuscation"
If DarkSend works only by the client being online, a clone can come up and say "we fixed the offline functionality, the user can issue the command and close the client or experience a power shutdown - knowing that the money will be transferred safely".

...if you want to be the leading anonymous cryptocurrency, you must already incorporate the improvements that others will be willing to make, in order to eliminate their "market" from the get go. Because, ultimately, a shitclone is as good as the answer to the question of "what is it that you provide that the others do not?"

I assume in the public non-beta version, you'll just check the box for darksend(or all transactions will be dark), and it'll automatically denominate and send for you?

Denominate is a new function, so I think it's not already assumed "active" with the checkbox enabled. The released version could probably be finalized as you say.

[eizh]

won't sending multiple transactions to your self bloat the blockchain?

Are you talking about denominate? It's just one transaction and it takes your whole wallet and converts the inputs into DarkSend compatible inputs. Say for example you have 123DRK, it would create ONE transaction that allowed you to DarkSend 9 times. Then you would need to run it again when you ran out of compatible inputs.

Can that be turned into a button or something?  I think it's ... well, more frightening than anything, for a "normal" person to issue commands in the debug console.  Also, they'd have to remember the word (I've forgotten it, LOL, had to do a -help and go through the list)  a warning could come up if they no longer have their funds properly denominated, and it can just say, please push the denominate button etc...

+1... Everything that is not automated, is a "coin weakness" that a clone can use to improve upon.

This can be used in a number of ways. For example:

If DarkSend is implemented but it's "hard to use" a clone can come up and make it "easy to use".
If DarkSend is the only layer of anonymity, a clone can come up and say "we offer both DarkSend and IP obfuscation"
If DarkSend works only by the client being online, a clone can come up and say "we fixed the offline functionality, the user can issue the command and close the client or experience a power shutdown - knowing that the money will be transferred safely".

...if you want to be the leading anonymous cryptocurrency, you must already incorporate the improvements that others will be willing to make, in order to eliminate their "market" from the get go. Because, ultimately, a shitclone is as good as the answer to the question of "what is it that you provide that the others do not?"

This is spot on. There isn't a "good enough". The privacy aspect needs to be taken as far as possible.

[DieCommieScum]

Alright, I just dug deep and bought it up to 0.00147500

I'm 5btc deep in this bitch, not including what I've invested in projects... DO YOUR PART!

[chompyZ]

On the another note, Eduffield are you still planning to attend the New York conference?   Didn't quite get a clear picture on what your intention was due to some changes.  

No, I was struggling to figure out how to do that with some family stuff that came up. Plus they downsized it to a couple hundred seats and it was really expensive to get there and the tickets are really expensive ($200) so I'm not sure how much impact it would have actually have had. I'd much rather speak at another conference, maybe one in Cali.

Since you won't be attending the convention you could do a video presentation explaining Darksend, put it on youtube and link/post it to other DarkCoin related sites.  Same content that you would have presented at the convention.  



Or maybe a live online Q&A

Excellent idea!  ideas!

+10000
I love the live Q&A idea!
If we can organize this on Reddit, it would be awesome imho.
Excellent exposure to the exact audience we looking for.

[fusecavator]

won't sending multiple transactions to your self bloat the blockchain?

Are you talking about denominate? It's just one transaction and it takes your whole wallet and converts the inputs into DarkSend compatible inputs. Say for example you have 123DRK, it would create ONE transaction that allowed you to DarkSend 9 times. Then you would need to run it again when you ran out of compatible inputs.

Couldn't this result in darksend transactions being exposed? If someone denominates, darksends, and then denominates again at a later time, the transaction for the second denominate will likely include both the change address for the darksend, and addresses used in the first denominate. This would link the change address to the rest of the wallet, and since there is likely to be only one corresponding output in the darksend, the darksent portion could be identified.

Even if that couldn't be done, denominating the whole wallet together allows anyone who knows one receiving address to identify most if not all of the other receiving addresses. It seems to me treating each receiving address as separate instead of operating on the whole wallet would be a safer, although more annoying, choice.

[chompyZ]

Official fundraiser for Darkcoin marketing & branding

Since Darkcoin was 0% premined, we will be doing this the old fashioned way, with a fundraiser. Many people in the community have expressed an interest in pushing our marketing effort along. We wanted to make sure the time was right, while Evan sorted out the kinks in the Darksend code. But we are nearly ready to show Darkcoin and Darksend to the world, so let's get this moving.

I will release a list of bounties for marketing & branding in the next day or so when I have a bit of spare time. For now, you may donate to the official fundraising wallet (anonymously if you like!). You can also PM me with your donation details and I'll keep some accounting, if only for the sake of making sure your donation is accounted for and spent appropriately.

As always, you are a fantastic community and we appreciate your support!

Fundraising wallet: Xc8xGSP7FwWGPQpgw298z7NYdA8xJK8ooh

1. Sent 84 drk [2 x the answer to everything]
May the force be with their marketing activity.

2. I think the idea of a fundraiser is great, BUT from my experience it also encourages people to send some coins, sit back as viewers, and simply wait for someone to propel something. This is what i felt when Litecoin did its fundraising a year ago, and it felt very bad to sit and wait for someone to do something.

I believe, in parallel to the organized campaign above, we should ALL declare that each of us is hereafter committed to doing one thing, whatever he/she chooses, to progress the coin.
One will decide to make a video for youtube. another will at his free time write something on their blog. a third might make a list of relevant bloggers and post it here. Another can send emails, and another can declare that he/she will bring 10 new users to darkcoin, family, friends, etc.
Everything is progress, as long as it's not just sitting back and waiting... or looking at the price stagnation all day.
imho, if each and every one of us does just one thing for this coin, it will move way faster than any "organized" campaign.
I am going to write a one-pager for darkcoin. Like an executive summary, for bloggers, journalists, etc..

Who else will commit to do something?

[chompyZ]

Official fundraiser for Darkcoin marketing & branding

Since Darkcoin was 0% premined, we will be doing this the old fashioned way, with a fundraiser. Many people in the community have expressed an interest in pushing our marketing effort along. We wanted to make sure the time was right, while Evan sorted out the kinks in the Darksend code. But we are nearly ready to show Darkcoin and Darksend to the world, so let's get this moving.

I will release a list of bounties for marketing & branding in the next day or so when I have a bit of spare time. For now, you may donate to the official fundraising wallet (anonymously if you like!). You can also PM me with your donation details and I'll keep some accounting, if only for the sake of making sure your donation is accounted for and spent appropriately.

As always, you are a fantastic community and we appreciate your support!

Fundraising wallet: Xc8xGSP7FwWGPQpgw298z7NYdA8xJK8ooh

1. Sent 84 drk [2 x the answer to everything]
May the force be with their marketing activity.

2. I think the idea of a fundraiser is great, BUT from my experience it also encourages people to send some coins, sit back as viewers, and simply wait for someone to propel something. This is what i felt when Litecoin did its fundraising a year ago, and it felt very bad to sit and wait for someone to do something.

I believe, in parallel to the organized campaign above, we should ALL declare that each of us is hereafter committed to doing one thing, whatever he/she chooses, to progress the coin.
One will decide to make a video for youtube. another will at his free time write something on their blog. a third might make a list of relevant bloggers and post it here. Another can send emails, and another can declare that he/she will bring 10 new users to darkcoin, family, friends, etc.
Everything is progress, as long as it's not just sitting back and waiting... or looking at the price stagnation all day.
imho, if each and every one of us does just one thing for this coin, it will move way faster than any "organized" campaign.
I am going to write a one-pager for darkcoin. Like an executive summary, for bloggers, journalists, etc..

Who else will commit to do something?

Send 90 eventually   
May the force be with them.

[matt608]

Official fundraiser for Darkcoin marketing & branding

Since Darkcoin was 0% premined, we will be doing this the old fashioned way, with a fundraiser. Many people in the community have expressed an interest in pushing our marketing effort along. We wanted to make sure the time was right, while Evan sorted out the kinks in the Darksend code. But we are nearly ready to show Darkcoin and Darksend to the world, so let's get this moving.

I will release a list of bounties for marketing & branding in the next day or so when I have a bit of spare time. For now, you may donate to the official fundraising wallet (anonymously if you like!). You can also PM me with your donation details and I'll keep some accounting, if only for the sake of making sure your donation is accounted for and spent appropriately.

As always, you are a fantastic community and we appreciate your support!

Fundraising wallet: Xc8xGSP7FwWGPQpgw298z7NYdA8xJK8ooh

Sent 50 DRK!

[CHAOSiTEC]

Official fundraiser for Darkcoin marketing & branding

Since Darkcoin was 0% premined, we will be doing this the old fashioned way, with a fundraiser. Many people in the community have expressed an interest in pushing our marketing effort along. We wanted to make sure the time was right, while Evan sorted out the kinks in the Darksend code. But we are nearly ready to show Darkcoin and Darksend to the world, so let's get this moving.

I will release a list of bounties for marketing & branding in the next day or so when I have a bit of spare time. For now, you may donate to the official fundraising wallet (anonymously if you like!). You can also PM me with your donation details and I'll keep some accounting, if only for the sake of making sure your donation is accounted for and spent appropriately.

As always, you are a fantastic community and we appreciate your support!

Fundraising wallet: Xc8xGSP7FwWGPQpgw298z7NYdA8xJK8ooh

1. Sent 84 drk [2 x the answer to everything]
May the force be with their marketing activity.

2. I think the idea of a fundraiser is great, BUT from my experience it also encourages people to send some coins, sit back as viewers, and simply wait for someone to propel something. This is what i felt when Litecoin did its fundraising a year ago, and it felt very bad to sit and wait for someone to do something.

I believe, in parallel to the organized campaign above, we should ALL declare that each of us is hereafter committed to doing one thing, whatever he/she chooses, to progress the coin.
One will decide to make a video for youtube. another will at his free time write something on their blog. a third might make a list of relevant bloggers and post it here. Another can send emails, and another can declare that he/she will bring 10 new users to darkcoin, family, friends, etc.
Everything is progress, as long as it's not just sitting back and waiting... or looking at the price stagnation all day.
imho, if each and every one of us does just one thing for this coin, it will move way faster than any "organized" campaign.
I am going to write a one-pager for darkcoin. Like an executive summary, for bloggers, journalists, etc..

Who else will commit to do something?

Send 90 eventually   
May the force be with them.

Official fundraiser for Darkcoin marketing & branding

Since Darkcoin was 0% premined, we will be doing this the old fashioned way, with a fundraiser. Many people in the community have expressed an interest in pushing our marketing effort along. We wanted to make sure the time was right, while Evan sorted out the kinks in the Darksend code. But we are nearly ready to show Darkcoin and Darksend to the world, so let's get this moving.

I will release a list of bounties for marketing & branding in the next day or so when I have a bit of spare time. For now, you may donate to the official fundraising wallet (anonymously if you like!). You can also PM me with your donation details and I'll keep some accounting, if only for the sake of making sure your donation is accounted for and spent appropriately.

As always, you are a fantastic community and we appreciate your support!

Fundraising wallet: Xc8xGSP7FwWGPQpgw298z7NYdA8xJK8ooh

hmm, i have an idea, how bout making the darkcoin foundation, and getting it official, that also shows commitment to darkcoin as a whole, and at the same time, we can do stuff, that now only seems like half official..

hell, we could even make a logo for sites that support the foundation by donations..

and we could start coordinating what needs to be done etc..

thoughts?

[coins101]

Official fundraiser for Darkcoin marketing & branding

Since Darkcoin was 0% premined, we will be doing this the old fashioned way, with a fundraiser. Many people in the community have expressed an interest in pushing our marketing effort along. We wanted to make sure the time was right, while Evan sorted out the kinks in the Darksend code. But we are nearly ready to show Darkcoin and Darksend to the world, so let's get this moving.

I will release a list of bounties for marketing & branding in the next day or so when I have a bit of spare time. For now, you may donate to the official fundraising wallet (anonymously if you like!). You can also PM me with your donation details and I'll keep some accounting, if only for the sake of making sure your donation is accounted for and spent appropriately.

As always, you are a fantastic community and we appreciate your support!

Fundraising wallet: Xc8xGSP7FwWGPQpgw298z7NYdA8xJK8ooh

Sent 50 DRK!

Sent 50 DRK.

Sent without condition, but it would be great if we can try to use messages to keep the bad actors away and point people to using DarkCoin for personal privacy reasons - legitimate reasons to use DarkCoin = mainstream which is where the growth potential is.

[chompyZ]

hmm, i have an idea, how bout making the darkcoin foundation, and getting it official, that also shows commitment to darkcoin as a whole, and at the same time, we can do stuff, that now only seems like half official..

hell, we could even make a logo for sites that support the foundation by donations..

and we could start coordinating what needs to be done etc..

thoughts?

Actually, many are talking about the future use of a blockchain as means for incorporating companies. Why not be the first - incorporate the Darkcoin Foundation in such a manner?

I think this will:
a) be in line with the right for privacy and anonymity agenda.
b) reduce any potential regulatory pressure from whoever is part of the foundation
c) reduce 'politics' within the foundation, as is the current case with the bitcoin foundation

[LimLims]

1. Sent 84 drk [2 x the answer to everything]
May the force be with their marketing activity.

2. I think the idea of a fundraiser is great, BUT from my experience it also encourages people to send some coins, sit back as viewers, and simply wait for someone to propel something. This is what i felt when Litecoin did its fundraising a year ago, and it felt very bad to sit and wait for someone to do something.

I believe, in parallel to the organized campaign above, we should ALL declare that each of us is hereafter committed to doing one thing, whatever he/she chooses, to progress the coin.
One will decide to make a video for youtube. another will at his free time write something on their blog. a third might make a list of relevant bloggers and post it here. Another can send emails, and another can declare that he/she will bring 10 new users to darkcoin, family, friends, etc.
Everything is progress, as long as it's not just sitting back and waiting... or looking at the price stagnation all day.
imho, if each and every one of us does just one thing for this coin, it will move way faster than any "organized" campaign.
I am going to write a one-pager for darkcoin. Like an executive summary, for bloggers, journalists, etc..

Who else will commit to do something?

The funds will go towards bounties that the community can fulfil. I think this is a good model for community involvement, and for letting everyone contribute where their skills lie.

Feel free to suggest bounties.

[tungfa]

won't sending multiple transactions to your self bloat the blockchain?

Are you talking about denominate? It's just one transaction and it takes your whole wallet and converts the inputs into DarkSend compatible inputs. Say for example you have 123DRK, it would create ONE transaction that allowed you to DarkSend 9 times. Then you would need to run it again when you ran out of compatible inputs.

Can that be turned into a button or something?  I think it's ... well, more frightening than anything, for a "normal" person to issue commands in the debug console.  Also, they'd have to remember the word (I've forgotten it, LOL, had to do a -help and go through the list)  a warning could come up if they no longer have their funds properly denominated, and it can just say, please push the denominate button etc...

+1... Everything that is not automated, is a "coin weakness" that a clone can use to improve upon.

This can be used in a number of ways. For example:

If DarkSend is implemented but it's "hard to use" a clone can come up and make it "easy to use".
If DarkSend is the only layer of anonymity, a clone can come up and say "we offer both DarkSend and IP obfuscation"
If DarkSend works only by the client being online, a clone can come up and say "we fixed the offline functionality, the user can issue the command and close the client or experience a power shutdown - knowing that the money will be transferred safely".

...if you want to be the leading anonymous cryptocurrency, you must already incorporate the improvements that others will be willing to make, in order to eliminate their "market" from the get go. Because, ultimately, a shitclone is as good as the answer to the question of "what is it that you provide that the others do not?"

This is spot on. There isn't a "good enough". The privacy aspect needs to be taken as far as possible.

+ 1

[matthewh3]

DRK has two big issues that I see:

(1) Because the power draw is only 60% of scrypt, large GPU farms that mine altcoins and dump them for BTC/fiat have an incentive to target DRK. More profit even at price parity due to lower electricity costs. This will keep market supply high perpetually and hence keep the price low.

(2) The legions of unremarkable clone-coins will implement DarkSend once it's open-sourced. See how zero-talent "devs" are copy-pasting Vertcoin's anti-ASIC adaptive N algorithm.

For both (1) and (2) the solution is greater adoption. In the case of (1) it reduces these quasi-commercial dumpers to a smaller proportion of the market. In the case of (2), it allows DRK to achieve escape velocity and get to a point where a competing clone coin can't catch up due to lacking the network effect.

So I see "marketing" as crucial, even in the short-term. In any case, DarkSend should probably be kept closed-source before hitting at least Bter and BTC38 (not that I'm in any position to advise devs). Call it an extended mandatory beta or something.

I agree, well said.

Personally, I don't think DarkSend should ever be open sourced. All it will result in are a ton of junk coins implementing it, and basically a ton of coins piggybacking on the dev's code here. Yes, if adoption was greater, then perhaps it'd make sense to open source. But to me, adoption means something like being able to be used for actual purchases somewhere.

So if DarkCoin turned into Bitcoin, sure, consider open source. But that sort of adoption would take years. Instead, if it was me, perhaps a verified 3rd party could look at the code for safety types of reasons every so often, rather than just release all of the code for free.

If the code is released, I expect the coin to drop in price ... a lot.

At this point I absolutely agree.  We have no brand awareness and as my favorite saying goes... " never forsake the real for the ideal!"   DarkCoins world needs to be tightly branded and every kink work out.  It would be suicidal to release anything until this coin is burned into peoples mind as the "NAME" in crypto security.

No Cryptoanarchist worth their salt would put their privacy and security in trust of any software that was closed-source.  You just don't get the idea why opensource software is so much more secure than anything closed-source.  

I think we should first get DarkSend working properly, release a stable binary version, then we'll find a few researchers/software developers to do an audit of the code. This way we can build a community and establish ourselves so we'll have the network to support the coin after DarkSend is open-sourced.

You "cryptoanarchists" are over doing it with wantinbg everything to be open soucre, I agree that Darkcoin should be Closed Source until it has a huge user base like Bitcoin does, then you can open source, if the devs open source Darkxoin before that, this coin will become.overlooked and useless as others mimic Darksend.

Bitcoin only succeeded and had such strong grass-roots support from the very start.  As it was always 100% opensource from day one.  If Darkcoin thinks it can only succeed by going closed-source.  Then I for one will lose all confidence in the coin and will look for an alternative privacy aware coin to support.  They want to try and stay ahead of the game by leading innovation.  Not by trying to hide the source from newbies.  The software will be cracked on day one anyway by hackers and if they want to clone it they will still anyway.  Does the Darkcoin dev team really have the funds and time for a very a lengthy and expensive patent trial.  So nothing will be gained by using the closed source model but a lot of trust will be lost.

[peteycamey]

mining this coin seems to be awfully unprofitable and also the diff is the 2nd highest after doge.

cant seem to figure out why.

[megges]

Official fundraiser for Darkcoin marketing & branding

Since Darkcoin was 0% premined, we will be doing this the old fashioned way, with a fundraiser. Many people in the community have expressed an interest in pushing our marketing effort along. We wanted to make sure the time was right, while Evan sorted out the kinks in the Darksend code. But we are nearly ready to show Darkcoin and Darksend to the world, so let's get this moving.

I will release a list of bounties for marketing & branding in the next day or so when I have a bit of spare time. For now, you may donate to the official fundraising wallet (anonymously if you like!). You can also PM me with your donation details and I'll keep some accounting, if only for the sake of making sure your donation is accounted for and spent appropriately.

As always, you are a fantastic community and we appreciate your support!

Fundraising wallet: Xc8xGSP7FwWGPQpgw298z7NYdA8xJK8ooh

would be nice to see it on the starting post!

-> 99.9 sent

(also a direct link to the blockexplorer wouldn't do a harm: http://explorer.darkcoin.io/address/Xc8xGSP7FwWGPQpgw298z7NYdA8xJK8ooh )