[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[wozzek23]

what are u talking about? this scenario seems completely unrealistic..
if there would be that much master nodes, any boost in demand would rise the price very quick which leads to people selling their nodes to cover the volatility.
if there would be just 1 drk left on the market due to huge demand, the price would already be at a million dollars..
nobody would run master nodes at that prices, too many of them, too less reward, too much volatility in crypto

My scenarios are hypothetical and stretched. I was trying to make a point using hyperbole. But do not underestimate the power of mathematics. Perhaps one month is not enough for my worries but ponder this yet again:

"As of today, 27.57% of ALL Darkcoins in circulation are already locked in Masternodes. On November 12th, less than a month ago, that percentage was 24.57% so the # of locked in coins outpaces the overall coins supply quite rapidly. [3% or for 40% on an annual basis] With the price as it is and the pace of MN growth we could see 50% off ALL coins being locked in Masternodes in less than six, perhaps four months."

What that means is that the Darkcoins are VANISHING from the circulation, on a daily basis. (from 24.57% locked in MN to 27.57% of all coins locked in MN in less than a month). On November 12th, these 24.57%, the Darkcoin price was 0.00672433 BTC. So 3% of all the coins were gone (from circulation) but the price went down. It is not such a big stretch to think this trend may continue until we come to the totally unrealistic scenarios I describe...

[oblox]

what are u talking about? this scenario seems completely unrealistic..
if there would be that much master nodes, any boost in demand would rise the price very quick which leads to people selling their nodes to cover the volatility.
if there would be just 1 drk left on the market due to huge demand, the price would already be at a million dollars..
nobody would run master nodes at that prices, too many of them, too less reward, too much volatility in crypto

My scenarios are hypothetical and stretched. I was trying to make a point using hyperbole. But do not underestimate the power of mathematics. Perhaps one month is not enough for my worries but ponder this yet again:

"As of today, 27.57% of ALL Darkcoins in circulation are already locked in Masternodes. On November 12th, less than a month ago, that percentage was 24.57% so the # of locked in coins outpaces the overall coins supply quite rapidly. [3% or for 40% on an annual basis] With the price as it is and the pace of MN growth we could see 50% off ALL coins being locked in Masternodes in less than six, perhaps four months."

What that means is that the Darkcoins are VANISHING from the circulation, on a daily basis. (from 24.57% locked in MN to 27.57% of all coins locked in MN in less than a month). On November 12th, these 24.57%, the Darkcoin price was 0.00672433 BTC. So 3% of all the coins were gone (from circulation) but the price went down. It is not such a big stretch to think this trend may continue until we come to the totally unrealistic scenarios I describe...

Again, they aren't "vanishing". They aren't going anywhere other than being set aside generating revenue. At a drop of a hat, they can come back into circulation at any moment if the price is attractive enough to sell. You are solving a problem that doesn't exist.

[wozzek23]

Not even one single coin is "locked up" in masternodes. I can spend any or all of the coins in my masternodes just as simply as you can spend the coins in your own wallet. I load up the wallet file (it's a cold wallet, as is prudent) and I spend the money. Easy peasy.

Now if I spend those DRKs, my MN will go offline. But it takes exactly 30 seconds to spend the money that's "tied up" in my masternodes.

Sure, you're correct, but if I'd continue with my hyperbolas I could say that all of us could sell our MN coins and kill the network. Another "problem". But I get your point.

You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

I hope you're right. It feels you might be. What you and ddink7 say makes a lot of sense. I am not 100% at ease yet   and will come back with the same "problem" once the "locked in" coins in MNs cross 50% of the overall supply.

As far as today, I am very happy with you guys - I love listening to the people smarter than myself. Thank you all, truly.

[superplus]

As Sir Crouton would say, and Satoshi too (Sir Crouton is now part of crypto royalty), you just move the decimal point to suit circulation needs.

That's how 21 million bitcoins can underpin the global financial system. OR; how ~21m Darkcoins can underpin the global gov paper system

Thanks to all of you guys - qwizzie, strix, oblox (to Tao: all is fine) - for you contributions, I only do not want to quote everyone and hijack the board entirely  

OK, but if you "move the decimal point" you have increased the coins supply 10x. Remember the community's reaction when Evan suggested (in fact it was leaked) a coin merge a while ago? The "merger" would've been funded by Darkcoins. Evan even had a brilliant idea of decreasing the number of circulated coins so, at the end, the number of coins would stay the same. The community went berserk over what would've been, I think about 4% or so, for sure less than 10% (temporary) increase of the total number of coins.

I am not aware of that decimal point move idea, but it would resemble the fiat world in which with a flicker of pen (or an enter on a keyboard) you "create" 10 times more coins thusly defying the very core idea of a "finite number" and you're in a totally new ballgame whose rules do not exist yet. (who would "authorize" such increase? Ben Bernake or that new creature at the FED or "our equivalent" of it?)

By doing this you're taking the power out of mathematics - again, the very core of Bitcon / Darkcoin advantages - and give it back to the people, us, poor carbon based, sub-lunar, corruptible creatures...

nobody would move the decimal point,
the decimal place could be increased if needed..

in general there is no dollar to penny comparison, there are no atomic units there are units with 8 positions after decimal point

[coins101]

Tea cup?

 

 

[oblox]

Total Masternodes: 1358 = 1358 actives + 0 inactives (Last refresh: Tue Dec 09 2014 19:12:37)
Estimated daily payout for an active node (blocks with MN payments last 24h: 100%): 0.58 DRK/day (Last Refreshed: Tue Dec 09 2014 19:12:42)

OMG what is going on? Are the top 10 wallets moving funds to masternodes?

I follow various Darkcoin related statistics data for my fun and this is the ONLY one I do not like. (aside the price that I don't get why is still as low as $2.25 or something). I raised the question, of coins being locked in the Masternode, wondering (hypothetically) what would happen if ALL the coins are locked out? Many a member told me it is too early to worry about it, and that pure economics would not allow any problems with it but I wonder / worry about LIQUIDITY!

Again, hypothetically, if only us - Darkcoin supporters - would buy the coins and at the end have ALL of them locked in MN, the value of one DRK could be a one million dollars for all I care, but who would buy the coin for a million? No one, I guarantee you. So, I might sell that one coin for a $1.00 (one dollar) in order to find a greedy buyer outside the community. And voila!, all the coins just lost 99.999999% of their value.

I don't buy an argument that scarcity would increase the price for the price itself is NOT, could NOT and SHOULD not be the only consideration.

I am currently at 28% loss with my Darkcoin investment. But I've also made 350% - in the last 30 days - on shorting Russian ruble on FOREX. (I'm sorry, our Russian friends, I hate to see how the Financial Crime Cartel is destroying your economy, but I could not let free money go away)  So, if I cared ONLY about the price / profit, I'd convert all my coins into a more profitable investment (at least on the short run) and forget about freedom, privacy, anonymity, cheap remittance of currency that is currently at 12% for fiat garbage, according to the World Bank (a $540 Billion market) and all sort of incredible benefits e-Cash (Darkcoin) could provide to the people all over the world. But if this cash sits in my MN or in my wallet and does nothing else but provide me, and only me, with a coin or two "reward", and the Network with some security, damn... something indeed might be wrong.

Ponder this: as of today, 27.57% of ALL Darkcoins in circulation are already locked in Masternodes. On November 12th, less than a month ago, that percentage was 24.57% so the # of locked in coins outpaces the overall coins supply quite rapidly. [3% or for 40% on an annual basis] With the price as it is and the pace of MN growth we could see 50% off ALL coins being locked in Masternodes in less than six, perhaps four months.

This simply CAN'T be good! I defy anyone to explain me how the currency out the circulation is going to be beneficial for our future users?

It's a digital coin being able to be split into decimals. Each "whole" coin has 10,000,000 units and there will certainly be more than just 1 coin worth in circulation. That's plenty of liquidity. If you only look at it from the viewpoint of whole coins, then sure, there is a problem, but it's a non issue in something that could be split out even more decimals. It IS economics: supply and demand. As reward for masternodes increase, demand for masternodes increase. As the price per coin increases, some existing holders will sell some of their stash until an equilibrium is formed.

correction : 100,000,000 duffs = 1 DRK

Good catch. Further reiterates that there would be plenty of liquidity. This argument is probably one of the stupidest ones I have seen on here thus far.

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

Total Masternodes: 1358 = 1358 actives + 0 inactives (Last refresh: Tue Dec 09 2014 19:12:37)
Estimated daily payout for an active node (blocks with MN payments last 24h: 100%): 0.58 DRK/day (Last Refreshed: Tue Dec 09 2014 19:12:42)

OMG what is going on? Are the top 10 wallets moving funds to masternodes?

I follow various Darkcoin related statistics data for my fun and this is the ONLY one I do not like. (aside the price that I don't get why is still as low as $2.25 or something). I raised the question, of coins being locked in the Masternode, wondering (hypothetically) what would happen if ALL the coins are locked out? Many a member told me it is too early to worry about it, and that pure economics would not allow any problems with it but I wonder / worry about LIQUIDITY!

Again, hypothetically, if only us - Darkcoin supporters - would buy the coins and at the end have ALL of them locked in MN, the value of one DRK could be a one million dollars for all I care, but who would buy the coin for a million? No one, I guarantee you. So, I might sell that one coin for a $1.00 (one dollar) in order to find a greedy buyer outside the community. And voila!, all the coins just lost 99.999999% of their value.

I don't buy an argument that scarcity would increase the price for the price itself is NOT, could NOT and SHOULD not be the only consideration.

I am currently at 28% loss with my Darkcoin investment. But I've also made 350% - in the last 30 days - on shorting Russian ruble on FOREX. (I'm sorry, our Russian friends, I hate to see how the Financial Crime Cartel is destroying your economy, but I could not let free money go away)  So, if I cared ONLY about the price / profit, I'd convert all my coins into a more profitable investment (at least on the short run) and forget about freedom, privacy, anonymity, cheap remittance of currency that is currently at 12% for fiat garbage, according to the World Bank (a $540 Billion market) and all sort of incredible benefits e-Cash (Darkcoin) could provide to the people all over the world. But if this cash sits in my MN or in my wallet and does nothing else but provide me, and only me, with a coin or two "reward", and the Network with some security, damn... something indeed might be wrong.

Ponder this: as of today, 27.57% of ALL Darkcoins in circulation are already locked in Masternodes. On November 12th, less than a month ago, that percentage was 24.57% so the # of locked in coins outpaces the overall coins supply quite rapidly. [3% or for 40% on an annual basis] With the price as it is and the pace of MN growth we could see 50% off ALL coins being locked in Masternodes in less than six, perhaps four months.

This simply CAN'T be good! I defy anyone to explain me how the currency out the circulation is going to be beneficial for our future users?

It's a digital coin being able to be split into decimals. Each "whole" coin has 10,000,000 units and there will certainly be more than just 1 coin worth in circulation. That's plenty of liquidity. If you only look at it from the viewpoint of whole coins, then sure, there is a problem, but it's a non issue in something that could be split out even more decimals. It IS economics: supply and demand. As reward for masternodes increase, demand for masternodes increase. As the price per coin increases, some existing holders will sell some of their stash until an equilibrium is formed.

correction : 100,000,000 duffs = 1 DRK

Good catch. Further reiterates that there would be plenty of liquidity. This argument is probably one of the stupidest ones I have seen on here thus far.

And is it also possible, although highly unlikely to be needed, of adding more decimal places in the future?

[superplus]

what are u talking about? this scenario seems completely unrealistic..
if there would be that much master nodes, any boost in demand would rise the price very quick which leads to people selling their nodes to cover the volatility.
if there would be just 1 drk left on the market due to huge demand, the price would already be at a million dollars..
nobody would run master nodes at that prices, too many of them, too less reward, too much volatility in crypto

My scenarios are hypothetical and stretched. I was trying to make a point using hyperbole. But do not underestimate the power of mathematics. Perhaps one month is not enough for my worries but ponder this yet again:

"As of today, 27.57% of ALL Darkcoins in circulation are already locked in Masternodes. On November 12th, less than a month ago, that percentage was 24.57% so the # of locked in coins outpaces the overall coins supply quite rapidly. [3% or for 40% on an annual basis] With the price as it is and the pace of MN growth we could see 50% off ALL coins being locked in Masternodes in less than six, perhaps four months."

What that means is that the Darkcoins are VANISHING from the circulation, on a daily basis. (from 24.57% locked in MN to 27.57% of all coins locked in MN in less than a month). On November 12th, these 24.57%, the Darkcoin price was 0.00672433 BTC. So 3% of all the coins were gone (from circulation) but the price went down. It is not such a big stretch to think this trend may continue until we come to the totally unrealistic scenarios I describe...

your assumption is entirely wrong, this trend can't progress until we are in your scenario..
its impossible to extrapolate that small information from the last month. thats not how markets behave

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

Total Masternodes: 1358 = 1358 actives + 0 inactives (Last refresh: Tue Dec 09 2014 19:12:37)
Estimated daily payout for an active node (blocks with MN payments last 24h: 100%): 0.58 DRK/day (Last Refreshed: Tue Dec 09 2014 19:12:42)

OMG what is going on? Are the top 10 wallets moving funds to masternodes?

I follow various Darkcoin related statistics data for my fun and this is the ONLY one I do not like. (aside the price that I don't get why is still as low as $2.25 or something). I raised the question, of coins being locked in the Masternode, wondering (hypothetically) what would happen if ALL the coins are locked out? Many a member told me it is too early to worry about it, and that pure economics would not allow any problems with it but I wonder / worry about LIQUIDITY!

Again, hypothetically, if only us - Darkcoin supporters - would buy the coins and at the end have ALL of them locked in MN, the value of one DRK could be a one million dollars for all I care, but who would buy the coin for a million? No one, I guarantee you. So, I might sell that one coin for a $1.00 (one dollar) in order to find a greedy buyer outside the community. And voila!, all the coins just lost 99.999999% of their value.

I don't buy an argument that scarcity would increase the price for the price itself is NOT, could NOT and SHOULD not be the only consideration.

I am currently at 28% loss with my Darkcoin investment. But I've also made 350% - in the last 30 days - on shorting Russian ruble on FOREX. (I'm sorry, our Russian friends, I hate to see how the Financial Crime Cartel is destroying your economy, but I could not let free money go away)  So, if I cared ONLY about the price / profit, I'd convert all my coins into a more profitable investment (at least on the short run) and forget about freedom, privacy, anonymity, cheap remittance of currency that is currently at 12% for fiat garbage, according to the World Bank (a $540 Billion market) and all sort of incredible benefits e-Cash (Darkcoin) could provide to the people all over the world. But if this cash sits in my MN or in my wallet and does nothing else but provide me, and only me, with a coin or two "reward", and the Network with some security, damn... something indeed might be wrong.

Ponder this: as of today, 27.57% of ALL Darkcoins in circulation are already locked in Masternodes. On November 12th, less than a month ago, that percentage was 24.57% so the # of locked in coins outpaces the overall coins supply quite rapidly. [3% or for 40% on an annual basis] With the price as it is and the pace of MN growth we could see 50% off ALL coins being locked in Masternodes in less than six, perhaps four months.

This simply CAN'T be good! I defy anyone to explain me how the currency out the circulation is going to be beneficial for our future users?

It's a digital coin being able to be split into decimals. Each "whole" coin has 10,000,000 units and there will certainly be more than just 1 coin worth in circulation. That's plenty of liquidity. If you only look at it from the viewpoint of whole coins, then sure, there is a problem, but it's a non issue in something that could be split out even more decimals. It IS economics: supply and demand. As reward for masternodes increase, demand for masternodes increase. As the price per coin increases, some existing holders will sell some of their stash until an equilibrium is formed.

correction :100,000,000 duffs = 1 DRK

https://twitter.com/taoofsatoshi/status/542411751976079360

[wozzek23]

what are u talking about? this scenario seems completely unrealistic..
if there would be that much master nodes, any boost in demand would rise the price very quick which leads to people selling their nodes to cover the volatility.
if there would be just 1 drk left on the market due to huge demand, the price would already be at a million dollars..
nobody would run master nodes at that prices, too many of them, too less reward, too much volatility in crypto

My scenarios are hypothetical and stretched. I was trying to make a point using hyperbole. But do not underestimate the power of mathematics. Perhaps one month is not enough for my worries but ponder this yet again:

"As of today, 27.57% of ALL Darkcoins in circulation are already locked in Masternodes. On November 12th, less than a month ago, that percentage was 24.57% so the # of locked in coins outpaces the overall coins supply quite rapidly. [3% or for 40% on an annual basis] With the price as it is and the pace of MN growth we could see 50% off ALL coins being locked in Masternodes in less than six, perhaps four months."

What that means is that the Darkcoins are VANISHING from the circulation, on a daily basis. (from 24.57% locked in MN to 27.57% of all coins locked in MN in less than a month). On November 12th, these 24.57%, the Darkcoin price was 0.00672433 BTC. So 3% of all the coins were gone (from circulation) but the price went down. It is not such a big stretch to think this trend may continue until we come to the totally unrealistic scenarios I describe...

your assumption is entirely wrong, this trend can't progress until we are in your scenario..
its impossible to extrapolate that small information from the last month. thats not how markets behave

Come on. Darkcoin is not even one year old. 1 month sample is about 10% of its lifespan. 3% trend within a month could be an abbreviation but it is NOT totally insignificant sample. Funnily enough, as we were talking here, this is what has happened:

-- 230 new coins created (4,929,367 total);
-- 18 new Masternodes established (1377 total);

The ratio I talk about went from 27.5707492% to 27.93462122% (0.36387202%) so in few hours we'd be at 28% of all coins in Masternodes. I may be entirely wrong as much as mu assumption, but it is fun to think about stuff I do not fully understand.

[Taylor05]

Total Masternodes: 1358 = 1358 actives + 0 inactives (Last refresh: Tue Dec 09 2014 19:12:37)
Estimated daily payout for an active node (blocks with MN payments last 24h: 100%): 0.58 DRK/day (Last Refreshed: Tue Dec 09 2014 19:12:42)

OMG what is going on? Are the top 10 wallets moving funds to masternodes?

I follow various Darkcoin related statistics data for my fun and this is the ONLY one I do not like. (aside the price that I don't get why is still as low as $2.25 or something). I raised the question, of coins being locked in the Masternode, wondering (hypothetically) what would happen if ALL the coins are locked out? Many a member told me it is too early to worry about it, and that pure economics would not allow any problems with it but I wonder / worry about LIQUIDITY!

Again, hypothetically, if only us - Darkcoin supporters - would buy the coins and at the end have ALL of them locked in MN, the value of one DRK could be a one million dollars for all I care, but who would buy the coin for a million? No one, I guarantee you. So, I might sell that one coin for a $1.00 (one dollar) in order to find a greedy buyer outside the community. And voila!, all the coins just lost 99.999999% of their value.

I don't buy an argument that scarcity would increase the price for the price itself is NOT, could NOT and SHOULD not be the only consideration.

I am currently at 28% loss with my Darkcoin investment. But I've also made 350% - in the last 30 days - on shorting Russian ruble on FOREX. (I'm sorry, our Russian friends, I hate to see how the Financial Crime Cartel is destroying your economy, but I could not let free money go away)  So, if I cared ONLY about the price / profit, I'd convert all my coins into a more profitable investment (at least on the short run) and forget about freedom, privacy, anonymity, cheap remittance of currency that is currently at 12% for fiat garbage, according to the World Bank (a $540 Billion market) and all sort of incredible benefits e-Cash (Darkcoin) could provide to the people all over the world. But if this cash sits in my MN or in my wallet and does nothing else but provide me, and only me, with a coin or two "reward", and the Network with some security, damn... something indeed might be wrong.

Ponder this: as of today, 27.57% of ALL Darkcoins in circulation are already locked in Masternodes. On November 12th, less than a month ago, that percentage was 24.57% so the # of locked in coins outpaces the overall coins supply quite rapidly. [3% or for 40% on an annual basis] With the price as it is and the pace of MN growth we could see 50% off ALL coins being locked in Masternodes in less than six, perhaps four months.

This simply CAN'T be good! I defy anyone to explain me how the currency out the circulation is going to be beneficial for our future users?

Not to harp on this comment more than anyone already has, but I think something additional to bear in mind... Remember that we are constantly generating new coins from mining and at some point the benefit to owning a MN decreases as the number of MNs increases. The math works out like this...

November 12th... total coins in circulation = ~4,850,000 * (1 - 24.57%) = 3,658,355 in "free" circulation
Right now ......... total coins in circulation = 4,929,372 * (1 - 27.57%) = 3,570,344 in "free" circulation

That means that a measly 88k coins were removed (net of those created) from circulation (currently this is only 1.8% of all coins... hardly something to panic over). Add to that we should be reaching an equilibrium number of MN owners now that we have clear visibility that we will eventually be receiving 60% rewards at some distant point in the future. This means that going forward, this should lead to a net increase in the number of DRK in "free" circulation as new coins are generated by miners. If the number of MNs increased this very moment to 4,929 (effectively wiping out almost all coins in circulation), ROI at the current 30% payout ratio would be a paltry 6.4% per year. The price of a coin would also likely be astronomical. I don't know about you, but Darkcoin requires a lot more than a 6.4% ROI for the high level of risk category of investment. I for one would bail out my coins if the ROI ever dropped below 15% or so. Of course, by the time any of this would happen, even more coins will be in existence, making the ROI in any "all coins invested in MNs" situation even lower than that 6.4% figure, making your scenario even more improbable. This is a non-issue that corrects itself through the constant generation of coins.

[Minotaur26]

This whole argument is silly. All coins are always on free circulation, masternode operators only have an incentive to hold their coins as they earn income from providing a service. Nothing is on "hold" it continues to be a free market, they can sell or move the coins freely at any time.  Masternode count is more an indication of sentiment and support for the coin, the price will rise on true adoption as more businesses accept DRK and for that we need to continue development and reach out pro actively to businesses to close partnerships and integrations, masternodes are not directly related to that.

Masternode count is directly related to network security protecting the network from sybil attacks, thats it. Indirectly they gauge investor sentiment as a rise or a drop on the masternode count  could indicate a long vs short investment positions. Can we move onto something more constructive?

Edit: Like I said the fact that people hold masternodes is only a good indication of their intention of staying in a long position with DRK. We get transparency into what people are thinking but nothing prevents them from selling for their own reasons at any time if their view changes or the price is right for them.

[wozzek23]

It's a digital coin being able to be split into decimals. Each "whole" coin has 10,000,000 units and there will certainly be more than just 1 coin worth in circulation. That's plenty of liquidity. If you only look at it from the viewpoint of whole coins, then sure, there is a problem, but it's a non issue in something that could be split out even more decimals. It IS economics: supply and demand. As reward for masternodes increase, demand for masternodes increase. As the price per coin increases, some existing holders will sell some of their stash until an equilibrium is formed.

correction : 100,000,000 duffs = 1 DRK

Good catch. Further reiterates that there would be plenty of liquidity. This argument is probably one of the stupidest ones I have seen on here thus far.

Hoping I am not as stupid as "my argument" seems to be, I have to go back to this discussion a bit for I like to ponder the issue I do not fully get - I lack your ease in coming to conclusions about someone or someone's argument's stupidity; it takes me some time before I call something "stupid" - unless I don't have a preconceived notion about the topic. I try really hard to find my own blind spot. So let me try to help you see your own. (blind spot, that is)  Again, I speak hypothetically trying to shade some light on the issue (or a "non-issue") as I see it.

You seem to think the issue I raised (the number of all coins in MNs vs. total circulation went from 24% to 27% in a month and one day the ratio could be 99% or 100%, if the trend continues) is resolved by the fact 1 coin has 100,000,000 duffs and therefore that the FRACTION of the currency union "reiterates that there would be plenty of liquidity". This does not make much sense.

The very idea of liquidity is "degree to which an asset or security can be bought or sold in the market without affecting the asset's price," and should we end up having only "duffs" and no "coins" left (they are all in Masternodes) the "duffs" would now have to follow market economics as well. "It IS economics: supply and demand," you wrote or quoted, right? So now we have the "duffs" and no "coins" so the duff is being used, sold and bought and as such its price could go up or down dramatically precisely because there is no liquidity (Darkcoins) left and with it, the asset (Darkcoin) value.

You're sweeping the problem (granted, it could be a "non problem, I don' know, that why I think about it) under the duffs. This may be your blind spot, I have no clue, still looking for my own.

[oblox]

Well, considering the breakout of available 1000 coin blocks wouldn't allow for maxing out the masternodes coupled with the monthly increase in masternode payout percentages, I don't foresee returns being THAT low. Even so, 6.4% for sitting on your ass and effectively doing nothing in an already low rate environment aint too shabby. Granted, if you don't believe in DRK, you probably aren't going to be running a masternode for long periods of time anyway.

[oblox]

It's a digital coin being able to be split into decimals. Each "whole" coin has 10,000,000 units and there will certainly be more than just 1 coin worth in circulation. That's plenty of liquidity. If you only look at it from the viewpoint of whole coins, then sure, there is a problem, but it's a non issue in something that could be split out even more decimals. It IS economics: supply and demand. As reward for masternodes increase, demand for masternodes increase. As the price per coin increases, some existing holders will sell some of their stash until an equilibrium is formed.

correction : 100,000,000 duffs = 1 DRK

Good catch. Further reiterates that there would be plenty of liquidity. This argument is probably one of the stupidest ones I have seen on here thus far.

Hoping I am not as stupid as "my argument" seems to be, I have to go back to this discussion a bit for I like to ponder the issue I do not fully get - I lack your ease in coming to conclusions about someone or someone's argument's stupidity; it takes me some time before I call something "stupid" - unless I don't have a preconceived notion about the topic. I try really hard to find my own blind spot. So let me try to help you see your own. (blind spot, that is)  Again, I speak hypothetically trying to shade some light on the issue (or a "non-issue") as I see it.

You seem to think the issue I raised (the number of all coins in MNs vs. total circulation went from 24% to 27% in a month and one day the ratio could be 99% or 100%, if the trend continues) is resolved by the fact 1 coin has 100,000,000 duffs and therefore that the FRACTION of the currency union "reiterates that there would be plenty of liquidity". This does not make much sense.

The very idea of liquidity is "degree to which an asset or security can be bought or sold in the market without affecting the asset's price," and should we end up having only "duffs" and no "coins" left (they are all in Masternodes) the "duffs" would now have to follow market economics as well. "It IS economics: supply and demand," you wrote or quoted, right? So now we have the "duffs" and no "coins" so the duff is being used, sold and bought and as such its price could go up or down dramatically precisely because there is no liquidity (Darkcoins) left and with it, the asset (Darkcoin) value.

You're sweeping the problem (granted, it could be a "non problem, I don' know, that why I think about it) under the duffs. This may be your blind spot, I have no clue, still looking for my own.

The moment things start pricing in duffs is the moment that people no longer transact on a regular basis in whole coins, quarter coins, etc, etc. At that point, the volume would reflect duffs being the new standard measure of volume. Do you actually believe that the moment things are priced in duffs that people are going to be hawking whole darkcoins left and right, seriously? Again, it's a stupid fucking argument. I, for one, have said my peace. I will not further answer a question that has already been answered in its entirety and represents a scenario that is as likely as me growing a third testicle.

[RenegadeMan]

what are u talking about? this scenario seems completely unrealistic..
if there would be that much master nodes, any boost in demand would rise the price very quick which leads to people selling their nodes to cover the volatility.
if there would be just 1 drk left on the market due to huge demand, the price would already be at a million dollars..
nobody would run master nodes at that prices, too many of them, too less reward, too much volatility in crypto

My scenarios are hypothetical and stretched. I was trying to make a point using hyperbole. But do not underestimate the power of mathematics. Perhaps one month is not enough for my worries but ponder this yet again:

"As of today, 27.57% of ALL Darkcoins in circulation are already locked in Masternodes. On November 12th, less than a month ago, that percentage was 24.57% so the # of locked in coins outpaces the overall coins supply quite rapidly. [3% or for 40% on an annual basis] With the price as it is and the pace of MN growth we could see 50% off ALL coins being locked in Masternodes in less than six, perhaps four months."

What that means is that the Darkcoins are VANISHING from the circulation, on a daily basis. (from 24.57% locked in MN to 27.57% of all coins locked in MN in less than a month). On November 12th, these 24.57%, the Darkcoin price was 0.00672433 BTC. So 3% of all the coins were gone (from circulation) but the price went down. It is not such a big stretch to think this trend may continue until we come to the totally unrealistic scenarios I describe...

your assumption is entirely wrong, this trend can't progress until we are in your scenario..
its impossible to extrapolate that small information from the last month. thats not how markets behave

Come on. Darkcoin is not even one year old. 1 month sample is about 10% of its lifespan. 3% trend within a month could be an abbreviation but it is NOT totally insignificant sample. Funnily enough, as we were talking here, this is what has happened:

-- 230 new coins created (4,929,367 total);
-- 18 new Masternodes established (1377 total);

The ratio I talk about went from 27.5707492% to 27.93462122% (0.36387202%) so in few hours we'd be at 28% of all coins in Masternodes. I may be entirely wrong as much as mu assumption, but it is fun to think about stuff I do not fully understand.

I've read every post and response on this. I can understand your concern wozzek23 but I do think you're failing to comprehend some of the key aspects of Darkcoin's economic architecture. You're speaking and hypothesising from the basis of a notion that coins are "rapidly disappearing" because of their use in MN's. As has been pointed out, they're not "locked up", they're simply reserved for the MN they're associated with. They can be removed from that situation and in back in circulation within seconds, so in essence they've never been taken out of circulation. There's a balance between people selling their DRK for gain and people holding their DRK for potential greater gain and/or MN income. The various pressures/forces involved keep things in relative order. When adoptions starts approaching something more akin to prime time, we'll see the MN numbers rise and fall as people make their own interpretations of risk/reward. I think the economic architecture is pretty sound.

I think you're also getting strung up on whole amounts of DRK versus DRK divided down into it's 8 decimal places. As per Tao's tweet just now, Darkcoin will eventually consist of a total of 21,000,000,000,000,000 units. That's really how it needs to be looked at. Liquidity will be fine because any single DRK is in fact 100,000,000 duffs and there are coins being added every day through the mining process.

It's an important discussion though and I think it was good you've raised it.

[balu]

Anyone has a working start-many setup? I cannot get mine to work. It says not capable masternode on all mns. I offer a 10 drk bounty for the help (if we can get my mns to work).

I'm past all basic troubleshooting, yet I cannot find why it's not working. :/

[innergy]

Total Masternodes: 1375 = 1375 actives + 0 inactives (Last refresh: Tue Dec 09 2014 11:11:06 PM)
Estimated daily payout for an active node (blocks with MN payments last 24h: 100%): 0.62 DRK/day (Last Refreshed: Tue Dec 09 2014 11:11:06 PM)

 

[ddink7]

Not even one single coin is "locked up" in masternodes. I can spend any or all of the coins in my masternodes just as simply as you can spend the coins in your own wallet. I load up the wallet file (it's a cold wallet, as is prudent) and I spend the money. Easy peasy.

Now if I spend those DRKs, my MN will go offline. But it takes exactly 30 seconds to spend the money that's "tied up" in my masternodes.

Sure, you're correct, but if I'd continue with my hyperbolas I could say that all of us could sell our MN coins and kill the network. Another "problem". But I get your point.

You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

How does that differ from any asset class? Satoshi could sell all his BTC and kill the network. Central bankers could sell all their gold and kill the market. China could sell all its dollars and kill the economy. We could nuke China back to the stone age if they tried.

There are a lot of hyperbolic scenarios one could come up with...

[Taylor05]

Well, considering the breakout of available 1000 coin blocks wouldn't allow for maxing out the masternodes coupled with the monthly increase in masternode payout percentages, I don't foresee returns being THAT low. Even so, 6.4% for sitting on your ass and effectively doing nothing in an already low rate environment aint too shabby. Granted, if you don't believe in DRK, you probably aren't going to be running a masternode for long periods of time anyway.

Don't forget that the 6.4% doesn't yet include any expenses, either. At $5/mo for hosting, you can shave off a couple more % (depending on what the price of one DRK is).