[NEM] NEM -New Economy Movement - No Envy Movement - Updates+Discussion thread

[dwma]

Here's an idea.

Set a new rule for the remaining shares. The rule restricts everyone but buyers who's registration date is sometime before the announcement of the coin, maybe several months before?.. and restrict the buyers to full members. Then lower the share price to a price maybe half of the current value or so. Allow buyins of multiple shares, but cap it at a small amount. This will bring in a different pool of investors. It should help fill up the spots quicker while also spreading the buyers. Thoughts?

This is idiotic.   Did you not read what NEM is supposed to be about ?  How can you claim an open coin that tries to be fair when you need an old account on 1 specific forum on the internet ?

It wouldn't spread the buyers, it does the opposite.  Hellllo?

It is so amazing how No Envy becomes Most Envy.  Like people complaining about taxes feeding the poor.  These people are first in line to get free government handouts.  They just hate the idea of someone else getting them.  I look at this thread a few times a day hoping for interesting discussion.  No.  What I see are more halfbaked ideas worrying about sock puppets having multiple accounts.  Instead of ideas to help coin grow etc, we get people worried about what others have.  All with the coin originally named "No Envy Movement".  Can't make this stuff up.

[Fatih87SK]

Maybe a picture of each stakeholder with the transaction ID written on a paper in his hand is enough.

This will set the fraudsters get to work =)

And if you announce it like we want a picture over a week from now. With a newspaper on that exact date.

They will only have 1 day to collect people who wants to be on a picture  

They can still fraud. Bit it will decrease it from 50 multiple accounts to 5-10 I think.

[patmast3r]

Let's assume 100% PON. So anyone can just install a client, setup a node and start forging even without initial stake/investment.
Why would you hold on to your stake if there is no difference in the gain.

It's not about forger's profit. It's about secure system. In Nxt u need coins to generate block, more coins = more chances. It makes front-attack expensive: attacker'll need biggest part of coins to write buggy chain that still'd be most diff. one (all honest chains'll be forks in this case).

If u replace PoS with PoN in start, low amount of nodes'll make network extremly vulnerable. I'm not sure even with later replacement, cos node-based attack always'll be cheaper than $/bruteforce-based attack (buy coins to generate buggy chain or crack Curve to do the same or to kill project). Should we sacriface attack cost gap for "fairness" (equal node-based forging)? I'm almost sure, that correct answer is "NO".

That's actually a good point. I was all about making forging more fair but it's really about keeping the network secure. Now I'm totally for a smaller amount of PON. Maybe 30% ?

[patmast3r]

@The whole fraudster and multi account topic.

Koreem and I are already sweeping through the regsitration pages (Koreem has done way more I just started yestersay) and already found some multi-accs. I'm gessing utopian is also looking. The more the merrier so if you have time go ahead and check the blockchains.

If you do it remember that you have to check the history of an address as well. The multi accs I found were only discovered because I checked where the used addresses were funded from in the first place.

As I understand it the current plan is to collect all the intell until fundraising is over and then publicly discuss the cases and refund them if they have more than 10 stakes.

I myself believe that 10 is actually a lot and we should start at 5 but let's hear some thoughts.

[j23a]

@The whole fraudster and multi account topic.

Koreem and I are already sweeping through the regsitration pages (Koreem has done way more I just started yestersay) and already found some multi-accs. I'm gessing utopian is also looking. The more the merrier so if you have time go ahead and check the blockchains.

If you do it remember that you have to check the history of an address as well. The multi accs I found were only discovered because I checked where the used addresses were funded from in the first place.

As I understand it the current plan is to collect all the intell until fundraising is over and then publicly discuss the cases and refund them if they have more than 10 stakes.

I myself believe that 10 is actually a lot and we should start at 5 but let's hear some thoughts.

What about for the people who gave NXTs to who friends and family who never heard of Cryptocurrencies? For example I gave NXTs to my aunt, and a friend in England. They gave me money for them and I helped them through the process? I also have extensive Facebook conversation helping my England friend out. There still have to be cases like that because as simple as the whole thing is for me, it's virtually impossible for people who are less tech savvy. Many people dismiss me when I tell them about them, but I'm very motivated to help the few that trust me.

[jnada]

Guys , sorry for completely newbie question - would you explain PoN abbreviation? and how it works in two sentences?

many thanks

or at least give some reference link - as I couldn't find anything here.

[dwma]

Guys , sorry for completely newbie question - would you explain PoN abbreviation? and how it works in two sentences?

many thanks

or at least give some reference link - as I couldn't find anything here.

proof of network.  like proof of stake, but it is proof of network.  I don't think the idea is used anywhere because it is likely quite flawed.  People who don't understand virtualization etc think that having different instances of a server add to security. Security can't rely on such things obviously. 

[patmast3r]

@The whole fraudster and multi account topic.

Koreem and I are already sweeping through the regsitration pages (Koreem has done way more I just started yestersay) and already found some multi-accs. I'm gessing utopian is also looking. The more the merrier so if you have time go ahead and check the blockchains.

If you do it remember that you have to check the history of an address as well. The multi accs I found were only discovered because I checked where the used addresses were funded from in the first place.

As I understand it the current plan is to collect all the intell until fundraising is over and then publicly discuss the cases and refund them if they have more than 10 stakes.

I myself believe that 10 is actually a lot and we should start at 5 but let's hear some thoughts.

What about for the people who gave NXTs to who friends and family who never heard of Cryptocurrencies? For example I gave NXTs to my aunt, and a friend in England. They gave me money for them and I helped them through the process? I also have extensive Facebook conversation helping my England friend out. There still have to be cases like that because as simple as the whole thing is for me, it's virtually impossible for people who are less tech savvy. Many people dismiss me when I tell them about them, but I'm very motivated to help the few that trust me.

Well that's probably why it's going to be public and everyone can make his case. If you helped a few friends it'll be fine. There'll prol be a bit of time between the transactions as well.

[NorrisK]

It's nice to see that even with the prices starting to become quite significant, there is still a high amount of interest!

Really looking forward to this release!

[Gaman]

@The whole fraudster and multi account topic.

Koreem and I are already sweeping through the regsitration pages (Koreem has done way more I just started yestersay) and already found some multi-accs. I'm gessing utopian is also looking. The more the merrier so if you have time go ahead and check the blockchains.

If you do it remember that you have to check the history of an address as well. The multi accs I found were only discovered because I checked where the used addresses were funded from in the first place.

As I understand it the current plan is to collect all the intell until fundraising is over and then publicly discuss the cases and refund them if they have more than 10 stakes.

I myself believe that 10 is actually a lot and we should start at 5 but let's hear some thoughts.

What about for the people who gave NXTs to who friends and family who never heard of Cryptocurrencies? For example I gave NXTs to my aunt, and a friend in England. They gave me money for them and I helped them through the process? I also have extensive Facebook conversation helping my England friend out. There still have to be cases like that because as simple as the whole thing is for me, it's virtually impossible for people who are less tech savvy. Many people dismiss me when I tell them about them, but I'm very motivated to help the few that trust me.

I think we are opening a can of worms here.  

If we are going to question everything, why not question the first 20 pages where you can just paste  interested and you get a stake.  How do we prove there is no multi accounter there?

Or how do we weed out the multi-accters in the thread 1 where you can just fund via the exchange?

In my view, what is happening here is we are doing selective persecution.  We are persecuting the late comers vs those early ones when it seems like free-for-all.

Is it because we are already in the thread 1, so we don't want as much people to come in and so, we are starting to persecute those that are in thread 2? (I am registered in thread 1, one of the early few)

Let us focus instead on getting the source code up!  Or our investment will all go to waste.  This is becoming a MOST ENVY MOVEMENT.

Just my two cents.

[patmast3r]

@The whole fraudster and multi account topic.

Koreem and I are already sweeping through the regsitration pages (Koreem has done way more I just started yestersay) and already found some multi-accs. I'm gessing utopian is also looking. The more the merrier so if you have time go ahead and check the blockchains.

If you do it remember that you have to check the history of an address as well. The multi accs I found were only discovered because I checked where the used addresses were funded from in the first place.

As I understand it the current plan is to collect all the intell until fundraising is over and then publicly discuss the cases and refund them if they have more than 10 stakes.

I myself believe that 10 is actually a lot and we should start at 5 but let's hear some thoughts.

What about for the people who gave NXTs to who friends and family who never heard of Cryptocurrencies? For example I gave NXTs to my aunt, and a friend in England. They gave me money for them and I helped them through the process? I also have extensive Facebook conversation helping my England friend out. There still have to be cases like that because as simple as the whole thing is for me, it's virtually impossible for people who are less tech savvy. Many people dismiss me when I tell them about them, but I'm very motivated to help the few that trust me.

I think we are opening a can of worms here.  

If we are going to question everything, why not question the first 20 pages where you can just paste  interested and you get a stake.  How do we prove there is no multi accounter there?

Or how do we weed out the multi-accters in the thread 1 where you can just fund via the exchange?

In my view, what is happening here is we are doing selective persecution.  We are persecuting the late comers vs those early ones when it seems like free-for-all.

Is it because we are already in the thread 1, so we don't want as much people to come in and so, we are starting to persecute those that are in thread 2? (I am registered in thread 1, one of the early few)

Let us focus instead on getting the source code up!  Or our investment will all go to waste.  This is becoming a MOST ENVY MOVEMENT.

Just my two cents.

The prople working on the code are focusing on coding - that's totally unrelated.
I think it's good to show that we are willing to put in some time and effort to make it as fair as possible. Of course it's never going to be a 100% fair but it'll be as fair as possible.

[Gaman]

@The whole fraudster and multi account topic.

Koreem and I are already sweeping through the regsitration pages (Koreem has done way more I just started yestersay) and already found some multi-accs. I'm gessing utopian is also looking. The more the merrier so if you have time go ahead and check the blockchains.

If you do it remember that you have to check the history of an address as well. The multi accs I found were only discovered because I checked where the used addresses were funded from in the first place.

As I understand it the current plan is to collect all the intell until fundraising is over and then publicly discuss the cases and refund them if they have more than 10 stakes.

I myself believe that 10 is actually a lot and we should start at 5 but let's hear some thoughts.

What about for the people who gave NXTs to who friends and family who never heard of Cryptocurrencies? For example I gave NXTs to my aunt, and a friend in England. They gave me money for them and I helped them through the process? I also have extensive Facebook conversation helping my England friend out. There still have to be cases like that because as simple as the whole thing is for me, it's virtually impossible for people who are less tech savvy. Many people dismiss me when I tell them about them, but I'm very motivated to help the few that trust me.

I think we are opening a can of worms here.  

If we are going to question everything, why not question the first 20 pages where you can just paste  interested and you get a stake.  How do we prove there is no multi accounter there?

Or how do we weed out the multi-accters in the thread 1 where you can just fund via the exchange?

In my view, what is happening here is we are doing selective persecution.  We are persecuting the late comers vs those early ones when it seems like free-for-all.

Is it because we are already in the thread 1, so we don't want as much people to come in and so, we are starting to persecute those that are in thread 2? (I am registered in thread 1, one of the early few)

Let us focus instead on getting the source code up!  Or our investment will all go to waste.  This is becoming a MOST ENVY MOVEMENT.

Just my two cents.

The prople working on the code are focusing on coding - that's totally unrelated.
I think it's good to show that we are willing to put in some time and effort to make it as fair as possible. Of course it's never going to be a 100% fair but it'll be as fair as possible.

I am not saying coding is related to the mult-accter.  Like the previous posts on P-O-N, I am saying we should focus instead on a healthy discussion on the mechanics of the coin so that the source code could be up soon.

Well, I don't see the fairness in applying rules retroactively to thread 2 stakes when these rules are impossible to check for thread 1 stakes.

If you want fairness, I suggest we start the registration all over again, and make sure everyone submits a valid ID and passport photo.  

[patmast3r]

@The whole fraudster and multi account topic.

Koreem and I are already sweeping through the regsitration pages (Koreem has done way more I just started yestersay) and already found some multi-accs. I'm gessing utopian is also looking. The more the merrier so if you have time go ahead and check the blockchains.

If you do it remember that you have to check the history of an address as well. The multi accs I found were only discovered because I checked where the used addresses were funded from in the first place.

As I understand it the current plan is to collect all the intell until fundraising is over and then publicly discuss the cases and refund them if they have more than 10 stakes.

I myself believe that 10 is actually a lot and we should start at 5 but let's hear some thoughts.

What about for the people who gave NXTs to who friends and family who never heard of Cryptocurrencies? For example I gave NXTs to my aunt, and a friend in England. They gave me money for them and I helped them through the process? I also have extensive Facebook conversation helping my England friend out. There still have to be cases like that because as simple as the whole thing is for me, it's virtually impossible for people who are less tech savvy. Many people dismiss me when I tell them about them, but I'm very motivated to help the few that trust me.

I think we are opening a can of worms here.  

If we are going to question everything, why not question the first 20 pages where you can just paste  interested and you get a stake.  How do we prove there is no multi accounter there?

Or how do we weed out the multi-accters in the thread 1 where you can just fund via the exchange?

In my view, what is happening here is we are doing selective persecution.  We are persecuting the late comers vs those early ones when it seems like free-for-all.

Is it because we are already in the thread 1, so we don't want as much people to come in and so, we are starting to persecute those that are in thread 2? (I am registered in thread 1, one of the early few)

Let us focus instead on getting the source code up!  Or our investment will all go to waste.  This is becoming a MOST ENVY MOVEMENT.

Just my two cents.

The prople working on the code are focusing on coding - that's totally unrelated.
I think it's good to show that we are willing to put in some time and effort to make it as fair as possible. Of course it's never going to be a 100% fair but it'll be as fair as possible.

I am not saying coding is related to the mult-accter.  Like the previous posts on P-O-N, I am saying we should focus instead on a healthy discussion on the mechanics of the coin so that the source code could be up soon.

Well, I don't see the fairness in applying rules retroactively to thread 2 stakes when these rules are impossible to check for thread 1 stakes.

If you want fairness, I suggest we start the registration all over again, and make sure everyone submits a valid ID and passport photo.  

We're not applying anything retroactively.

I agree that this thread should be focused on mechanics and stuff so let's drop the topic right here

Have we agreed on a balance between POS and PON yet ?
Has jaguar stated his opinion on this ?

[okaynow]

Somebody keeps pushing the NXT price down. It's really annoying. It's annoying. 

It is called a
market opportunity.
Buy now, that is cheap. Would you rather wait for .001 to double your stake?

[xax515]

@The whole fraudster and multi account topic.

Koreem and I are already sweeping through the regsitration pages (Koreem has done way more I just started yestersay) and already found some multi-accs. I'm gessing utopian is also looking. The more the merrier so if you have time go ahead and check the blockchains.

If you do it remember that you have to check the history of an address as well. The multi accs I found were only discovered because I checked where the used addresses were funded from in the first place.

As I understand it the current plan is to collect all the intell until fundraising is over and then publicly discuss the cases and refund them if they have more than 10 stakes.

I myself believe that 10 is actually a lot and we should start at 5 but let's hear some thoughts.

What about for the people who gave NXTs to who friends and family who never heard of Cryptocurrencies? For example I gave NXTs to my aunt, and a friend in England. They gave me money for them and I helped them through the process? I also have extensive Facebook conversation helping my England friend out. There still have to be cases like that because as simple as the whole thing is for me, it's virtually impossible for people who are less tech savvy. Many people dismiss me when I tell them about them, but I'm very motivated to help the few that trust me.

I think we are opening a can of worms here.  

If we are going to question everything, why not question the first 20 pages where you can just paste  interested and you get a stake.  How do we prove there is no multi accounter there?

Or how do we weed out the multi-accters in the thread 1 where you can just fund via the exchange?

In my view, what is happening here is we are doing selective persecution.  We are persecuting the late comers vs those early ones when it seems like free-for-all.

Is it because we are already in the thread 1, so we don't want as much people to come in and so, we are starting to persecute those that are in thread 2? (I am registered in thread 1, one of the early few)

Let us focus instead on getting the source code up!  Or our investment will all go to waste.  This is becoming a MOST ENVY MOVEMENT.

Just my two cents.

You're absolutely right, who invested early, going against the last, without contributing anything to NEM.


It can create a war with that, sad.

NEM is given time to invest, that's a lot in money matters.

[templebar]

Somebody keeps pushing the NXT price down. It's really annoying. It's annoying. 

It is called a
market opportunity.
Buy now, that is cheap. Would you rather wait for .001 to double your stake?

I think the big stake holders has finally undesrtood that NXT is going nowhere and is starting to dump their coins.
Its a good time for NEM to take the next step, with a big announcement/beta code release.

Come on devs, show us something, if anything is happening in the background.

[patmast3r]

Somebody keeps pushing the NXT price down. It's really annoying. It's annoying. 

It is called a
market opportunity.
Buy now, that is cheap. Would you rather wait for .001 to double your stake?

I think the big stake holders has finally undesrtood that NXT is going nowhere and is starting to dump their coins.

IMHO that's BS but who knows.

[xax515]

Somebody keeps pushing the NXT price down. It's really annoying. It's annoying.  

It is called a
market opportunity.
Buy now, that is cheap. Would you rather wait for .001 to double your stake?

I think the big stake holders has finally undesrtood that NXT is going nowhere and is starting to dump their coins.

IMHO that's BS but who knows.

Other as PANAMA0001,  another hustler more.

NXT to achieved stability, you can't deceive Us!

You'll have to buy expensive as many of us.

[dwma]

I think we are opening a can of worms here.  

If we are going to question everything, why not question the first 20 pages where you can just paste  interested and you get a stake.  How do we prove there is no multi accounter there?

Or how do we weed out the multi-accters in the thread 1 where you can just fund via the exchange?

In my view, what is happening here is we are doing selective persecution.  We are persecuting the late comers vs those early ones when it seems like free-for-all.

Is it because we are already in the thread 1, so we don't want as much people to come in and so, we are starting to persecute those that are in thread 2? (I am registered in thread 1, one of the early few)

Let us focus instead on getting the source code up!  Or our investment will all go to waste.  This is becoming a MOST ENVY MOVEMENT.

Just my two cents.

Yes, well said.  The first pages people had to do nothing.  Anyone who had multiple accounts could sign them all up and now they are not being questioned.  These are the guys who showed the least dedication.  They invested nothing so they care not if it fails.  Unfortunately some people are not able to read bitcointalk.org constantly so they had to invest money instead.

This place is pump and dump central.  There must had been lots of guys with multiple accounts ready to go.  So all the shady dudes who invested nothing but the labor for 1 login (to post) are able to have unlimited stakes at beginning.  This witchhunt will do little.  I think rules have been laid down and are adequate.  Anyone spending 4 hours just to make first post to then pay for stake seems fairly dedicated to me.  Yet we ignore guys who did nothing but post under their already existing multiaccounts.

I think if you guys found someone who had 50 stakes or something then yes you should refund stakes.  However I am not sure how you do this outside the rules.  It is either taint analysis or IP checking.   How far do you go with taint analysis ? Then you start accusing people.  Pretty much definition of a witchhunt.

Instead you could be productive.  Figure out how to make this coin succeed.  Make scammers work for their stakes, but just don't spend too much time going on about this.  

I hope you guys doing all this extra work get dev stakes.

[patmast3r]

So to show you guys how serious the multiacc problem could be:

Someone as Strapp369 postet this on page 53 in thread 2: https://blockchain.info/tx/b173b2fdbb70360f4c486759ff8cf8f0126e212338c0c6d4c34d3505e2ad551f

Adress was funded by: 1LSUUKuKhjK7FCCaZhWogGFAfgWTef9fRR which you can see here: https://blockchain.info/de/address/1KvQu4tPuuEEWU8rNkn3YYjYV5tvV74CRJ You can also see that here happend another buy in.

The same adress has also funded: 1GZ5MBbAPmi2oinWH5VFEasjz8hzLgxzXV as seen here https://blockchain.info/de/address/1GZ5MBbAPmi2oinWH5VFEasjz8hzLgxzXV <-- also shows a second buy in.

 
1LSUUKuKhjK7FCCaZhWogGFAfgWTef9fRR was funded by 13aNtLcTrsopYPWWA1eGwn9qcKi2J5Bxjw which you can see here: https://blockchain.info/de/tx/51efab3e990ea8bea7c8e69e02d8ddeebb801541ef903be785164e01d8c1a4e7

That same adress has also funded numerous other addresses that where used to buy stakes as seen here (and more following the trail):

https://blockchain.info/de/address/13aNtLcTrsopYPWWA1eGwn9qcKi2J5Bxjw

which leads to these other hashes: http://pastebin.com/kiVPi2t2 (not complete because I'm out of time)

That means one of three things:

1) I'm reading those things wrong or missunderstood something (plz tell me if it's the case)

2) It's an exchange like btc-e or whatever that connects all these accounts

3) That dude has 50+ stakes.

If 3 is the case I think that needs action don't you ?