Eligius: 0% Fee BTC, 105% PPS NMC, No registration, CPPSRB

[cronuss]

I am trying to change my minimum payout, but when I try I get "signature fails!"

I am setting it above the minimum as well.

What is the deal?

My Eligius - 2014-06-24 21:17:11 UTC - Minimum_Payout_BTC=0.01049

Signature fails!

[baddw]

Don't think so. AFAIK the transfer of the complete URL is already encrypted.

The other way someone could take a guess at which address was yours was if they knew what hashrate you were hashing at. If that were the case then they could merely visit http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/topcontributors.php and work out which one was yours.

That's easy to defeat.  Use more than one address!

M

Back pay rises as sqrt(n) / n, so for 2 addresses it rises twice as fast.

How's that?  My understanding is that back pay (which I'm assuming you're using to refer to either the shelving of shares, or the payment of previously shelved shares -- if you're referring to something else here, please clarify) simply goes on a share-by-share basis and has nothing to do with which account a share is under.  If I submit 1000 shares under Account A, and 500 of them are shelved, that's the same as submitting 500 shares (250 shelved) under Account B and 500 shares (250 shelved) under Account C.  The order in which the shares go into the system is the only thing that matters.  Assuming that hashpower is equally divided between Accounts B and C, and thus they are both submitting shares with approximately the same frequency, I don't see how one's overall payout would be affected by splitting up in this way.  (Aside from the payment queue, which of course is managed on an account-by-account basis.)

[baddw]

I am trying to change my minimum payout, but when I try I get "signature fails!"

I am setting it above the minimum as well.

What is the deal?

My Eligius - 2014-06-24 21:17:11 UTC - Minimum_Payout_BTC=0.01049

Signature fails!

Are you using your Bitcoin wallet / private key to sign the message?

[cronuss]

I am trying to change my minimum payout, but when I try I get "signature fails!"

I am setting it above the minimum as well.

What is the deal?

My Eligius - 2014-06-24 21:17:11 UTC - Minimum_Payout_BTC=0.01049

Signature fails!

Are you using your Bitcoin wallet / private key to sign the message?

Why on earth would I give some website the private key to my wallet? Is that what they are asking for?

I assume there is another way to change a simple account setting other than giving them the keys to do whatever they want with my money.

It is bad enough that I can't even change my account name from the original address I signed up with... (or can I?)

[ProfMac]

Don't think so. AFAIK the transfer of the complete URL is already encrypted.

The other way someone could take a guess at which address was yours was if they knew what hashrate you were hashing at. If that were the case then they could merely visit http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/topcontributors.php and work out which one was yours.

That's easy to defeat.  Use more than one address!

M

Back pay rises as sqrt(n) / n, so for 2 addresses it rises twice as fast.

How's that?  My understanding is that back pay (which I'm assuming you're using to refer to either the shelving of shares, or the payment of previously shelved shares -- if you're referring to something else here, please clarify) simply goes on a share-by-share basis and has nothing to do with which account a share is under.  If I submit 1000 shares under Account A, and 500 of them are shelved, that's the same as submitting 500 shares (250 shelved) under Account B and 500 shares (250 shelved) under Account C.  The order in which the shares go into the system is the only thing that matters.  Assuming that hashpower is equally divided between Accounts B and C, and thus they are both submitting shares with approximately the same frequency, I don't see how one's overall payout would be affected by splitting up in this way.  (Aside from the payment queue, which of course is managed on an account-by-account basis.)

There was an analysis and also a simulation a few weeks back.  The conclusion seemed to be the sqrt(n) / n growth in time.  If you split the account in two, that would be 2 * ( sqrt(n/2) / (n/2) ).  

[ProfMac]

I am trying to change my minimum payout, but when I try I get "signature fails!"

I am setting it above the minimum as well.

What is the deal?

My Eligius - 2014-06-24 21:17:11 UTC - Minimum_Payout_BTC=0.01049

Signature fails!

Are you using your Bitcoin wallet / private key to sign the message?

Why on earth would I give some website the private key to my wallet? Is that what they are asking for?

I assume there is another way to change a simple account setting other than giving them the keys to do whatever they want with my money.

It is bad enough that I can't even change my account name from the original address I signed up with... (or can I?)

Can you show the signature for that message?

[cronuss]

I am trying to change my minimum payout, but when I try I get "signature fails!"

I am setting it above the minimum as well.

What is the deal?

My Eligius - 2014-06-24 21:17:11 UTC - Minimum_Payout_BTC=0.01049

Signature fails!

Are you using your Bitcoin wallet / private key to sign the message?

Why on earth would I give some website the private key to my wallet? Is that what they are asking for?

I assume there is another way to change a simple account setting other than giving them the keys to do whatever they want with my money.

It is bad enough that I can't even change my account name from the original address I signed up with... (or can I?)

Can you show the signature for that message?

When I make the changes, below it says:


Message to Sign with 1LiFoQaaqALUT2u4cUCPDrGHtSw4H6N4NC:
My Eligius - 2014-06-24 21:31:04 UTC - Minimum_Payout_BTC=0.01048576

There are then two text fields, one with the above string, and one empty with "Signature:" above it.

Am I missing something completely obvious in how this works?

[taipo]

That's easy to defeat.  Use more than one address!

M

Yes, that would make it very difficult. But it would all depends I suppose on the situation.

If its just accessing ones web stats from work for example, then an SSL cert would protect your public key / wallet address from being discovered as long as you at least emptied the browser cache correctly on the work computer and kept your hashrate a secret. However if someone is 'stealth mining' at work, or in any location/country where mining is prohibited....then an SSL certificate on the stats page will not save them from their miners being discovered.

Even if a stealth miner were able to run their miners through TOR, an end to end timing attack would quickly expose which accounts on Eligius belonged to the stealth miner ( albeit a rather unlikely example ).

[canford]

I am trying to change my minimum payout, but when I try I get "signature fails!"

I am setting it above the minimum as well.

What is the deal?

My Eligius - 2014-06-24 21:17:11 UTC - Minimum_Payout_BTC=0.01049

Signature fails!

Are you using your Bitcoin wallet / private key to sign the message?

Why on earth would I give some website the private key to my wallet? Is that what they are asking for?

I assume there is another way to change a simple account setting other than giving them the keys to do whatever they want with my money.

It is bad enough that I can't even change my account name from the original address I signed up with... (or can I?)

Can you show the signature for that message?

When I make the changes, below it says:


Message to Sign with 1LiFoQaaqALUT2u4cUCPDrGHtSw4H6N4NC:
My Eligius - 2014-06-24 21:31:04 UTC - Minimum_Payout_BTC=0.01048576

There are then two text fields, one with the above string, and one empty with "Signature:" above it.

Am I missing something completely obvious in how this works?

You need to sign the message with the private key associated with that address.  This proves you control the address and thus Eligius should allow you to make the change.  Signing a message does not in any way give your private key away, it just proves you have access to it.  I sign my Eligius messages using MultiBit.

[cronuss]

I didn't realize I had to use client software to sign it.

Got it now.

[baddw]

Don't think so. AFAIK the transfer of the complete URL is already encrypted.

The other way someone could take a guess at which address was yours was if they knew what hashrate you were hashing at. If that were the case then they could merely visit http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/topcontributors.php and work out which one was yours.

That's easy to defeat.  Use more than one address!

M

Back pay rises as sqrt(n) / n, so for 2 addresses it rises twice as fast.

How's that?  My understanding is that back pay (which I'm assuming you're using to refer to either the shelving of shares, or the payment of previously shelved shares -- if you're referring to something else here, please clarify) simply goes on a share-by-share basis and has nothing to do with which account a share is under.  If I submit 1000 shares under Account A, and 500 of them are shelved, that's the same as submitting 500 shares (250 shelved) under Account B and 500 shares (250 shelved) under Account C.  The order in which the shares go into the system is the only thing that matters.  Assuming that hashpower is equally divided between Accounts B and C, and thus they are both submitting shares with approximately the same frequency, I don't see how one's overall payout would be affected by splitting up in this way.  (Aside from the payment queue, which of course is managed on an account-by-account basis.)

There was an analysis and also a simulation a few weeks back.  The conclusion seemed to be the sqrt(n) / n growth in time.  If you split the account in two, that would be 2 * ( sqrt(n/2) / (n/2) ).  

Are you talking about this?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=441465.msg6740270;topicseen#msg6740270

I'm not sure that I buy that the shelved shares increase by sqrt(N), and I don't think anybody should put much credence into a result that has no documentation.  Good pool luck decreases shelved shares, and bad pool luck (whether natural or due to attacks such as block withholding -- which, my gut is telling me, has not been completely eliminated from Eligius) increases shelved shares.  Orphan blocks increase shelved shares, but that is a predictable percentage.  Over the long run (assuming that luck normalizes over the long run, as it should), shelved shares should be directly proportional to N.

In particular, I think that this 2*(sqrt(n/2)/(n/2)) result shows that the correct calculation for increase in shelved shares for a given account could not possibly be proportional to sqrt(N)/N.  We have reached a result that is nonsensical by simple logic; proof by contradiction. 

To work through the logic again: Take a given account A, and mentally split its hashrate into two: B and C.  Look at each individual share submitted by A to the pool, and assign each share randomly to B or to C, given equal weighting.  Any given share will either be shelved or paid out.  This is true whether the share is credited to A, B, or C.  In this case, A = B+C exactly, and this applies to both Shelved(B+C) as well as Paid(B+C).  There is no reason for Shelved(B+C)>Shelved(A) or for Paid(B+C)<Paid(A); there is no mechanism by which proportional payout to smaller accounts would be diminished in any way, or else the pool would be grossly unfair to small miners.

[baddw]

It is bad enough that I can't even change my account name from the original address I signed up with... (or can I?)

The rest of your questions have been answered, so here's the answer for this one:

To change the account name / address, simply change it in your mining configuration, i.e. the "username" that you are using to mine.  Say you are mining with bfgminer; if you are mining to address ABCDG, i.e. your bfgminer commandline looks something like "bfgminer blahblah -O ABCDG", and you want to mine instead to address HIJKL, simply change it to "bfgminer blahblah -O HIJKL".  Simple as that.  ABCDG will still receive whatever payments were owed to it (after some delay, depending on how much BTC is owed and whether it has hit its threshold), but all new shares will be credited and paid out to HIJKL.  You can change your mining address at any time.

With Eligius, you never "sign up" with any username.  You simply submit shares under whatever address you want to be paid out to.  You could theoretically change your mining address every day, or every hour.  The pool doesn't keep track, nor does it care.  You will still have to sign a new message with the new address if you want to set NMC payouts or the payout threshold.

[Hektur]

It is bad enough that I can't even change my account name from the original address I signed up with... (or can I?)

The rest of your questions have been answered, so here's the answer for this one:

To change the account name / address, simply change it in your mining configuration, i.e. the "username" that you are using to mine.  Say you are mining with bfgminer; if you are mining to address ABCDG, i.e. your bfgminer commandline looks something like "bfgminer blahblah -O ABCDG", and you want to mine instead to address HIJKL, simply change it to "bfgminer blahblah -O HIJKL".  Simple as that.  ABCDG will still receive whatever payments were owed to it (after some delay, depending on how much BTC is owed and whether it has hit its threshold), but all new shares will be credited and paid out to HIJKL.  You can change your mining address at any time.

With Eligius, you never "sign up" with any username.  You simply submit shares under whatever address you want to be paid out to.  You could theoretically change your mining address every day, or every hour.  The pool doesn't keep track, nor does it care.  You will still have to sign a new message with the new address if you want to set NMC payouts or the payout threshold.

But any bitcoins you have on your old account wallet address, will remain there or be merged back into the pool's resources if they are low enough.  Neither you or support can transfer any remaining balance from the old account wallet address to the new one.  This is per the Eligius FAQ.

[baddw]

It is bad enough that I can't even change my account name from the original address I signed up with... (or can I?)

The rest of your questions have been answered, so here's the answer for this one:

To change the account name / address, simply change it in your mining configuration, i.e. the "username" that you are using to mine.  Say you are mining with bfgminer; if you are mining to address ABCDG, i.e. your bfgminer commandline looks something like "bfgminer blahblah -O ABCDG", and you want to mine instead to address HIJKL, simply change it to "bfgminer blahblah -O HIJKL".  Simple as that.  ABCDG will still receive whatever payments were owed to it (after some delay, depending on how much BTC is owed and whether it has hit its threshold), but all new shares will be credited and paid out to HIJKL.  You can change your mining address at any time.

With Eligius, you never "sign up" with any username.  You simply submit shares under whatever address you want to be paid out to.  You could theoretically change your mining address every day, or every hour.  The pool doesn't keep track, nor does it care.  You will still have to sign a new message with the new address if you want to set NMC payouts or the payout threshold.

But any bitcoins you have on your old account wallet address, will remain there or be merged back into the pool's resources if they are low enough.  Neither you or support can transfer any remaining balance from the old account wallet address to the new one.  This is per the Eligius FAQ.

1) The FAQ is somewhat outdated; 2) I can't find what you're talking about, and in no standard case will Eligius ever keep miners' funds (although I think they did withhold payouts to *known* Mt.Gox addresses when Gox shut down); 3) The FAQ also contains this: "Miners who stop mining and have zero new earnings for seven days will also enter the payout queue regardless of their balance."  (I know this part to be true.)  Once you stop mining with your first address, your balance will be paid out to you, entering the standard payment queue after 7 days of no mining activity.

Not being able to transfer funds from one account to another (or change payout address) is a security feature, not a bug.  This is how other pools get coins stolen from their miners.  (Account/Password gets hacked, hacker logs in and changes payout address.)  Eligius doesn't rely on any kind of login, email, or password in order to send payouts.  The settings (payout minimum threshold, NMC payout address, etc.) rely on standard (extremely strong) Bitcoin signatures to prove that the actual owner of the mining address is changing the settings.  It is decentralized (in that there is no central data store to hack in order to alter payouts) , very private (Eligius never has a password or email address for any miner), and extremely secure (signing a message with a Bitcoin private key is way stronger than most passwords).

[fubly]

Hi wizkid057,

can you explain me why my reward for an block drops from 0.017xx to now 0.00758752 ??

25 BTC / 7,000,0000 = 3,57142857142857E-006 * 5000 Gh/s = 0.0178571429

but not 0.00758752  = +- 2,124 Gh/s.

My 3 hour avg = 4,919.00 Gh/s and my 12 hour avg. = 4,707.00

Also I did not received any NMC. And yes I have an valid NMC wallet.

Thx for reply

[Hektur]

It is bad enough that I can't even change my account name from the original address I signed up with... (or can I?)

The rest of your questions have been answered, so here's the answer for this one:

To change the account name / address, simply change it in your mining configuration, i.e. the "username" that you are using to mine.  Say you are mining with bfgminer; if you are mining to address ABCDG, i.e. your bfgminer commandline looks something like "bfgminer blahblah -O ABCDG", and you want to mine instead to address HIJKL, simply change it to "bfgminer blahblah -O HIJKL".  Simple as that.  ABCDG will still receive whatever payments were owed to it (after some delay, depending on how much BTC is owed and whether it has hit its threshold), but all new shares will be credited and paid out to HIJKL.  You can change your mining address at any time.

With Eligius, you never "sign up" with any username.  You simply submit shares under whatever address you want to be paid out to.  You could theoretically change your mining address every day, or every hour.  The pool doesn't keep track, nor does it care.  You will still have to sign a new message with the new address if you want to set NMC payouts or the payout threshold.

But any bitcoins you have on your old account wallet address, will remain there or be merged back into the pool's resources if they are low enough.  Neither you or support can transfer any remaining balance from the old account wallet address to the new one.  This is per the Eligius FAQ.

1) The FAQ is somewhat outdated; 2) I can't find what you're talking about, and in no standard case will Eligius ever keep miners' funds (although I think they did withhold payouts to *known* Mt.Gox addresses when Gox shut down); 3) The FAQ also contains this: "Miners who stop mining and have zero new earnings for seven days will also enter the payout queue regardless of their balance."  (I know this part to be true.)  Once you stop mining with your first address, your balance will be paid out to you, entering the standard payment queue after 7 days of no mining activity.

Not being able to transfer funds from one account to another (or change payout address) is a security feature, not a bug.  This is how other pools get coins stolen from their miners.  (Account/Password gets hacked, hacker logs in and changes payout address.)  Eligius doesn't rely on any kind of login, email, or password in order to send payouts.  The settings (payout minimum threshold, NMC payout address, etc.) rely on standard (extremely strong) Bitcoin signatures to prove that the actual owner of the mining address is changing the settings.  It is decentralized (in that there is no central data store to hack in order to alter payouts) , very private (Eligius never has a password or email address for any miner), and extremely secure (signing a message with a Bitcoin private key is way stronger than most passwords).

I've changed pools before and when I returned to Eligius to check my stats, I've received messages before that said something like "you need to mine to a certain amount of btc within 1 month and so many days to enter the payment queue (when my account was showing .000XXXX amount) or your reward will be returned to the pool".  I saw this message when I first started out mining and was trying out various pools and again when I returned after having to have my entire house rewired (non-mining issue resulting from the previous owner who thought he was an electrician and screwed things up so bad that even I couldn't figure out what they did).

Yes, the FAQ's are a bit out of date but I have yet to see any pool that changes them to keep up with any made changes that were made.

[fubly]

 

What happens with the pool? After every block my reward drops, but why?

[baddw]

What happens with the pool? After every block my reward drops, but why?

Your actual award is "As of last block:".  It went up from 0.1977789BTC to 0.21367375BTC.  The "Estimated Change:" is based on what would happen if the pool found a block at that very moment.  In the 1st pic, the round has been going for 01:19:26.  You have submitted a lot of shares in that time, so you would get .00884507 BTC if the pool found a block at that very moment.  In the 2nd pic, the round has been going for 00:29:57.  At that point, you have only submitted roughly 3/8 of the shares that you submitted at the time that you took the screenshot of the previous block.  (30 minutes vs. 80 minutes)

The system is based on Proportional Payment System.  Your "Estimated Change" goes down to 0 with each new round, and goes up as you submit shares.  (Except for taking into account unpaid / shelved shares from recent blocks -- then your Estimated Change might be greater than 0 when a new round starts.)  Your overall Shares Rewarded is at 98.75%, which is pretty high, so you don't have very many shelved shares to pay out.

Every round, while the round has >100% luck, for every 10 minutes of hashes your "Estimated Change" should be a little more than +.001 BTC.  Once the round drops below 100% luck, this number will decrease.

[fubly]

does it mean, when the round is over and I submit the first share and this share founds one block, that no one other will get an reward
on the pool for this one block?

And 98,75 % rewarded shares, does it mean that the rest 1,25 is for eligius pool admin, or what? When I count my shares I deliver 99,5 % valid shares, on my cgminer I have set the flag "do not submit stealth shares".

Thx for your reply and have a nice day.

thx

Edit: As longer a round take, as higher is my reward, is this also normal?

[baddw]

does it mean, when the round is over and I submit the first share and this share founds one block, that no one other will get an reward
on the pool for this one block?

No.  Every share that you submit gets the same reward, no matter if it finds a block or not.  If a new round starts, and you find a block immediately and submit it as the first share submitted in the round, you get the same reward you would get for any other share.  This would be a very lucky round, and a lot of shelved shares would be paid out from previous rounds.

And 98,75 % rewarded shares, does it mean that the rest 1,25 is for eligius pool admin, or what? When I count my shares I deliver 99,5 % valid shares, on my cgminer I have set the flag "do not submit stealth shares".

98.75% rewarded shares means the other 1.25% is shelved.  They might be paid out some day if the pool gets very lucky.  The pool does not keep any shares for itself.  Around 2% unpaid shares would be typical due to orphan blocks.  (Most other pools don't even show you this number!)

Edit: As longer a round take, as higher is my reward, is this also normal?

Yes.  Eligius has the payment system called CPPSRB, Capped Pay Per Share with Recent Backpay.  The core of this is "Pay Per Share" or PPS.  Under a strict PPS system, every share that you submit to the pool gets the same payment.  It is not possible for you to get more or less payment per share than the proportional amount.  CPPSRB is somewhat modified: The pool will not pay you for shares that it cannot pay for (if it doesn't find as many blocks as it needs to, it doesn't pay you for your oldest shares, but your unpaid shares go "on the shelf" so that they can be paid later, if possible).

Please see the link in my sig for a longer explanation of CPPSRB.