The Cypherfunks[FUNK]: a coin for a global band! Talking v2. Join! 80+ songs

[n00bnoxious]

I have a technical question for the team - has there been any thought put into implementing any of the ASIC-resistant or whale-resistant algos? Darkcoin's DGW is absolutely great, and solves the issue of such things as happened yesterday when the 100MH whale attacked the Cyphership ;-) Also, we need some innovation technically rather than just socially, as I'm 100% certain that when ASICs turn up it's going to make most stock scrypt coins totally infeasible. I'm more than happy to help with implementation if anybody's interested.

[florianuhlemann]

I have a technical question for the team - has there been any thought put into implementing any of the ASIC-resistant or whale-resistant algos? Darkcoin's DGW is absolutely great, and solves the issue of such things as happened yesterday when the 100MH whale attacked the Cyphership ;-) Also, we need some innovation technically rather than just socially, as I'm 100% certain that when ASICs turn up it's going to make most stock scrypt coins totally infeasible. I'm more than happy to help with implementation if anybody's interested.

To be honest? Cypherfunk is technically one of the finest scrypt-based currencies. It does have a proper code, well working KGW, etc.
A simple miner with lot's of hashrate isn't going to break the coin - and neither my pool All that happens is a few more blocks than usual per minute and a rise in difficulty.

Switching a coin to a totally different algorithm isn't something that should be done and I believe hasn't been done ever before, or have I missed something?

EDIT: ASIC-resistance <--- you know that ASICs are a GOOD thing, right? Properly securing the network with high hashrates (actually all known ASICs today for scrypt aren't more powerful than gpus for the same price, just more energy efficient) and consuming less power - making a coins network cheaper to maintain and let's it be used more widely.

Bitcoin's ASICs are a blessing for the network. it hasn't hurt it - to the contrary. That huge rise in hashpower made it way more secure than before and by kicking out cpus and gpus for bitcoin "mining" (maintenance of the network) it drastically lowers the waste of energy world-wide for that network. the goal is to further reduce (i.e. by using 22nm asics such as neptune's) power requirements for a high hashrate.
Just my thoughts - but I'm sure some would agree on that^^

EDIT: let's assume you'd create an algorithm that addresses the GPU's vector engines used in OpenGL games for example (basically making a gpu-only coin rather than cpu-only), it would make a coin that would only properly work with a GPU that uses a lot power. the costs are way too high to maintain it in the long-term. the value/price of a cryptocurrencies is not only estimated by trades, but can also be estimated by the investment needed to run it and the continuous power requirements to keep the hardware running.

[vaudvaud]

• Remember, queue=0, scan-time=2, expiry=8 keeps rejects low and pays better towards your hashrate!

Even with those settings and trying to tune more I finally figured out my rejects are beyond my control and due to my ISP and being half way around the world.. heck my ISP even went down for a few hours on Friday. Watching the charts, I can tell when the local neighborhood network (cable internet) gets busy and my rejects go up.  Without my changing a thing I'll go from as low a 1% to sometimes 25%.. Also when the 100Mhs hits my rejects drop since they have more time..  Everybody should be in church right now so I should be good for a few hours.. 

[vaudvaud]

Any idea if Funks KGW is susceptible to the time warp exploit?  I know there was talk of taking down Aurora Coin with it if they implemented KGW, and that's one reason Doge is going with Digishield instead of KGW.  With the current difficulty so low I don't see it being exploited now, but possible in the future?

[simondlr]

Any idea if Funks KGW is susceptible to the time warp exploit?  I know there was talk of taking down Aurora Coin with it if they implemented KGW, and that's one reason Doge is going with Digishield instead of KGW.  With the current difficulty so low I don't see it being exploited now, but possible in the future?

I've looked into time warp exploit (and need some more time to understand it properly). Afaik it hasn't been done yet? Has any KGW coins been exploited with this (if so, link please)? I'll definitely have a look at Digishield (read about it when Dogecoin implemented it) & I will definitely look into Darkcoin's DGW as well (seems to solve time warp exploit, which is awesome). Currently I want to avoid a hard-fork where possible, and for now it seems to be fine. We have a lot of new non-crypto people joining, so would like to avoid hard forks where possible. And if we do, do it once off and as irregular as possible. Difficult to get the word out to the non-crypto enthusiasts on why they have to download new wallets. Ideally, a web wallet in the future will avoid these problems so that the crypto enthusiasts that help run full nodes can update in time.

With regards to ASICs. It does exclude the average person from getting involved who does not have access to money for ASICs (like me). However, as Florian said, it's a trade-off against chain security. There hasn't been any large-scale attacks on smaller chains, but it is always something that worries me.

It's important to remember. We are going to get a lot of people involved with this that don't really care about the technical stuff at all. They will care about the music and that there is a workable currency. They don't care about ASIC resistance or KGW like we do. What we need is a secure chain with happy miners that we don't have to change too much. It's a fine balance. Let's hope we get it right.

Will look into Digishield & DGW. Cheers!

[florianuhlemann]

Any idea if Funks KGW is susceptible to the time warp exploit?  I know there was talk of taking down Aurora Coin with it if they implemented KGW, and that's one reason Doge is going with Digishield instead of KGW.  With the current difficulty so low I don't see it being exploited now, but possible in the future?

I've looked into time warp exploit (and need some more time to understand it properly). Afaik it hasn't been done yet? Has any KGW coins been exploited with this (if so, link please)? I'll definitely have a look at Digishield (read about it when Dogecoin implemented it) & I will definitely look into Darkcoin's DGW as well (seems to solve time warp exploit, which is awesome). Currently I want to avoid a hard-fork where possible, and for now it seems to be fine. We have a lot of new non-crypto people joining, so would like to avoid hard forks where possible. And if we do, do it once off and as irregular as possible. Difficult to get the word out to the non-crypto enthusiasts on why they have to download new wallets. Ideally, a web wallet in the future will avoid these problems so that the crypto enthusiasts that help run full nodes can update in time.

With regards to ASICs. It does exclude the average person from getting involved who does not have access to money for ASICs (like me). However, as Florian said, it's a trade-off against chain security. There hasn't been any large-scale attacks on smaller chains, but it is always something that worries me.

It's important to remember. We are going to get a lot of people involved with this that don't really care about the technical stuff at all. They will care about the music and that there is a workable currency. They don't care about ASIC resistance or KGW like we do. What we need is a secure chain with happy miners that we don't have to change too much. It's a fine balance. Let's hope we get it right.

Will look into Digishield & DGW. Cheers!

look at heavy coins diff adjustment algo. that seemed interesting too

there are small asics as well for the same cost as a GPU, so even smaller can invest imho.
Digishield and DGW have been out of my knowledge until now. will have to read into it too

[n00bnoxious]

I have a technical question for the team - has there been any thought put into implementing any of the ASIC-resistant or whale-resistant algos? Darkcoin's DGW is absolutely great, and solves the issue of such things as happened yesterday when the 100MH whale attacked the Cyphership ;-) Also, we need some innovation technically rather than just socially, as I'm 100% certain that when ASICs turn up it's going to make most stock scrypt coins totally infeasible. I'm more than happy to help with implementation if anybody's interested.

To be honest? Cypherfunk is technically one of the finest scrypt-based currencies. It does have a proper code, well working KGW, etc.
A simple miner with lot's of hashrate isn't going to break the coin - and neither my pool All that happens is a few more blocks than usual per minute and a rise in difficulty.

Switching a coin to a totally different algorithm isn't something that should be done and I believe hasn't been done ever before, or have I missed something?

EDIT: ASIC-resistance <--- you know that ASICs are a GOOD thing, right? Properly securing the network with high hashrates (actually all known ASICs today for scrypt aren't more powerful than gpus for the same price, just more energy efficient) and consuming less power - making a coins network cheaper to maintain and let's it be used more widely.

Bitcoin's ASICs are a blessing for the network. it hasn't hurt it - to the contrary. That huge rise in hashpower made it way more secure than before and by kicking out cpus and gpus for bitcoin "mining" (maintenance of the network) it drastically lowers the waste of energy world-wide for that network. the goal is to further reduce (i.e. by using 22nm asics such as neptune's) power requirements for a high hashrate.
Just my thoughts - but I'm sure some would agree on that^^

EDIT: let's assume you'd create an algorithm that addresses the GPU's vector engines used in OpenGL games for example (basically making a gpu-only coin rather than cpu-only), it would make a coin that would only properly work with a GPU that uses a lot power. the costs are way too high to maintain it in the long-term. the value/price of a cryptocurrencies is not only estimated by trades, but can also be estimated by the investment needed to run it and the continuous power requirements to keep the hardware running.

You definitely have a point there - ASICs are a good way to remove the illegitimate uses from a particular currency. Coins have switched algorithms though - there are a number that have moved from scrypt to scrypt-adaptive-N recently, and Darkcoin just implemented DarkGravityWell from KGW yesterday (some disruption to service, but nothing unfixable this early).

Because of the deliberately rising difficulty as adoption of a currency does it makes sense that ASICs, or at least the future is taken into account. I can see there's a logistical difficulty with coding out ASICs though - it could slow down adoption, and decrease profitability hugely when the diff goes up.

[n00bnoxious]

Any idea if Funks KGW is susceptible to the time warp exploit?  I know there was talk of taking down Aurora Coin with it if they implemented KGW, and that's one reason Doge is going with Digishield instead of KGW.  With the current difficulty so low I don't see it being exploited now, but possible in the future?

I've looked into time warp exploit (and need some more time to understand it properly). Afaik it hasn't been done yet? Has any KGW coins been exploited with this (if so, link please)? I'll definitely have a look at Digishield (read about it when Dogecoin implemented it) & I will definitely look into Darkcoin's DGW as well (seems to solve time warp exploit, which is awesome). Currently I want to avoid a hard-fork where possible, and for now it seems to be fine. We have a lot of new non-crypto people joining, so would like to avoid hard forks where possible. And if we do, do it once off and as irregular as possible. Difficult to get the word out to the non-crypto enthusiasts on why they have to download new wallets. Ideally, a web wallet in the future will avoid these problems so that the crypto enthusiasts that help run full nodes can update in time.

With regards to ASICs. It does exclude the average person from getting involved who does not have access to money for ASICs (like me). However, as Florian said, it's a trade-off against chain security. There hasn't been any large-scale attacks on smaller chains, but it is always something that worries me.

It's important to remember. We are going to get a lot of people involved with this that don't really care about the technical stuff at all. They will care about the music and that there is a workable currency. They don't care about ASIC resistance or KGW like we do. What we need is a secure chain with happy miners that we don't have to change too much. It's a fine balance. Let's hope we get it right.

Will look into Digishield & DGW. Cheers!

Why not build something into the wallet to notify users of updates? All it'd have to do is buzz Github or your site to see if anything needed updating, although I'm sure there's something interesting that could make it more P2P.

[vaudvaud]

The original Auroracoin timewarp thread is here:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=504103.0
Looks like he has taken down other coins in the past.

As far as the ASIC's, I've been tempted to sell of my GPUs and move to the Gridseed ASIC's, mainly due to the way lower power costs and almost no heat when doing scrypt only, right now with the market I could sell my GPU's for almost the same cost of the gridseeds, and get the same output, but at 7W instead of 100's. Heck they have been heating my kids room for what passes for winter here, but once summer hits I'm going to have cooling issues.  Plus Hashmasters is about 2 miles from me and has them in stock, so I don't even have to deal with shipping.

My only hold back is that GPU's are way more customizable, and can be adopted for changes in coin scrypts much faster.  ASIC's lock you into a specific formula.. and with the rate the technology is changing I rather have something I can still use later.. I may still pick one up to test with... right now my hardware is paid off too, so I'm a bit reluctant to dump more money into anything until I see how it's all going to go.

[florianuhlemann]

that's what I meant (offtopic now) small asics for scrypt that are affordable and cheaper to maintain: better doof to scrypt mining than a gpu

http://zeusminer.com/product/zeus-scrypt-asic-miner-300khs/

[simondlr]

Any idea if Funks KGW is susceptible to the time warp exploit?  I know there was talk of taking down Aurora Coin with it if they implemented KGW, and that's one reason Doge is going with Digishield instead of KGW.  With the current difficulty so low I don't see it being exploited now, but possible in the future?

I've looked into time warp exploit (and need some more time to understand it properly). Afaik it hasn't been done yet? Has any KGW coins been exploited with this (if so, link please)? I'll definitely have a look at Digishield (read about it when Dogecoin implemented it) & I will definitely look into Darkcoin's DGW as well (seems to solve time warp exploit, which is awesome). Currently I want to avoid a hard-fork where possible, and for now it seems to be fine. We have a lot of new non-crypto people joining, so would like to avoid hard forks where possible. And if we do, do it once off and as irregular as possible. Difficult to get the word out to the non-crypto enthusiasts on why they have to download new wallets. Ideally, a web wallet in the future will avoid these problems so that the crypto enthusiasts that help run full nodes can update in time.

With regards to ASICs. It does exclude the average person from getting involved who does not have access to money for ASICs (like me). However, as Florian said, it's a trade-off against chain security. There hasn't been any large-scale attacks on smaller chains, but it is always something that worries me.

It's important to remember. We are going to get a lot of people involved with this that don't really care about the technical stuff at all. They will care about the music and that there is a workable currency. They don't care about ASIC resistance or KGW like we do. What we need is a secure chain with happy miners that we don't have to change too much. It's a fine balance. Let's hope we get it right.

Will look into Digishield & DGW. Cheers!

Why not build something into the wallet to notify users of updates? All it'd have to do is buzz Github or your site to see if anything needed updating, although I'm sure there's something interesting that could make it more P2P.

Bitcoin has such a system actually. Good point. I'll look into it. On my to-do list for next week. That will help: a lot.

[florianuhlemann]

Here's a publicly available p2pool git for cypherfunks. all settings / images included. just the usual setup and starting, it automatically connects to the main node!

Simon, you can put that link on the frontpage too

https://github.com/florianuhlemann/p2pool_cypherfunk

[florianuhlemann]

http://pastebin.com/340DirjE

Here's the temporal retargetting I was speaking about earlier. Anything we can grab from that to improve diff adjustments easier?

basically, it should be something very simple (less prone to hacking ) and effective.

• retarget with every single block
• increases by a maximum of 5% per block
• decreases by a maximum of 25% per block
• retarget timeframe from the past 64 blocks?
• crosscheck with the last 16 blocks for tremendous differences (quicker downadjustments)

does that call too much for a multipool attack? (then maybe 15% down) not sure what I'm saying here, just a few thoughts:D

[neuroMode]

Well this is a cool coin, while the coin isn't innovative (not an insult), it really has the possible community acceptance. Here's my thoughts:

1. It could use a visual refresh (logos, wallet)
2. DO NOT rush to exchanges, refuse them for a while if possible. It does not hurt a coin no to be immediately listed (look at FLT ffs, I was solo'ing when it soft launched right up to BTER surprise listing)
3. Focus on community building, the fact that this isn't a marketing tool to make $$ like Songcoin
4. Use that CoinDesk article more in the OP. It's really good and from a great source. I'd put these in the OP:

From CoinDesk (http://www.coindesk.com/coins-for-bands-disrupt-music-industry/):

Altcoins targeting specific communities are starting to emerge. This month sees the introduction of two separate cryptocurrencies aimed at musicians. Songcoin and FUNK each take different political and technical approaches to helping the independent music economy.

Coindesk on Songcoin:

This seems to turn it into a marketing play, rather than a technological innovation. Songcoin will be premined, with the premined proportion amounting to far less than 50%, said Franks, although Pimovi hasn’t decided what proportion will be premined yet. The premine will be used for initial giveaways to promote the coin (known as ‘faucets’, in the cryptocurrency world).

Songcoin focusing on $$$:

Naturally, Franks sees big things ahead for the coin. “We are closely watching Auroracoin with its $230 million market cap along with its distribution designed for Iceland’s population. We see the music listening population as being much larger obviously,” he said.

FUNK is the community-driven alternative:

Anyone can join the Cypherfunks, says de la Rouviere, who describes participants as a “decentralized band”. All musicians have rights to everything produced, and it can remixed and shared by participants in the collective. It is essentially crowdsourced, open sourced music.

The coin will not be premined, he said. “Everyone needs equal stake in the idea for it flourish fully.”

This is a very good post!

Definitely Android Wallets, fresh logo, and Coindesk article are highlights.

Community building through Reddit and Youtube and IRC bots will be a nice start.
Advertise in real life by handing out flyers and putting up flyers in public places or in music shops and bars!

Advertise the Cypherfunks Soundcloud page.

We can do this guys. Music is a powerful uniter!

[organizer]

Reaching out to some of the larger pools, pointing them towards the article as an introduction point would be great as well.

[simondlr]

Love where this is going! Added new the source to the p2pool to the frontpage and the link to the IRC.

I'm going to focus on reading up on the different retargeting algorithms (besides KGW), working on the android wallet & looking at a pamphlet.

Been speaking to bjmillican4 on figuring out a one-liner and a paragraph to use to get people excited. Here's a paragraph I wrote.

---

"The Cypherfunks" is a network of musicians working individually & together to make music under the same name. A cryptocurrency [FUNK] acts as "stock" in the band. 

Both the currency & band are completely decentralized. It is a grand experiment in permission-less, internet scale innovation in music, collaboration, and technology.

By creating music for this internet band and sharing it, musicians increase the network effect & subsequent demand for the currency. As contributors, musicians can be tipped FUNK by other members. FUNK can be exchanged into your currency of choice through various online exchanges. In the future, you will be able to use FUNK directly to buy products that assist in music making, and eventually anything else you can think of.

The long-term goal is to have a community of musicians use FUNK as currency to help each other continuously create great new music.

---

How about that? Any thoughts?

[neuroMode]

Love where this is going! Added new the source to the p2pool to the frontpage and the link to the IRC.

I'm going to focus on reading up on the different retargeting algorithms (besides KGW), working on the android wallet & looking at a pamphlet.

Been speaking to bjmillican4 on figuring out a one-liner and a paragraph to use to get people excited. Here's a paragraph I wrote.

---

"The Cypherfunks" is a network of musicians working individually & together to make music under the same name. A cryptocurrency [FUNK] acts as "stock" in the band. 

Both the currency & band are completely decentralized. It is a grand experiment in permission-less, internet scale innovation in music, collaboration, and technology.

By creating music for this internet band and sharing it, musicians increase the network effect & subsequent demand for the currency. As contributors, musicians can be tipped FUNK by other members. FUNK can be exchanged into your currency of choice through various online exchanges. In the future, you will be able to use FUNK directly to buy products that assist in music making, and eventually anything else you can think of.

The long-term goal is to have a community of musicians use FUNK as currency to help each other continuously create great new music.

---

How about that? Any thoughts?

I'll take a look and re-edit after my errands. really procrastinating  now

[florianuhlemann]

thanks and cool! very cool^^

[0btc]

Here's a publicly available p2pool git for cypherfunks. all settings / images included. just the usual setup and starting, it automatically connects to the main node!

Simon, you can put that link on the frontpage too

https://github.com/florianuhlemann/p2pool_cypherfunk

I contacted you earlier about setting up another node and putting the source on git, but as you probably noticed I had not quite gotten around to that. Apologies! With your source on github I did finally set up another node! It's at http://cypherfunks.p2p.0x0a.nl:36363 (0.9% fee) and it connected to your node without a problem. Huzzah & thanks!

[simondlr]

Here's a publicly available p2pool git for cypherfunks. all settings / images included. just the usual setup and starting, it automatically connects to the main node!

Simon, you can put that link on the frontpage too

https://github.com/florianuhlemann/p2pool_cypherfunk

I contacted you earlier about setting up another node and putting the source on git, but as you probably noticed I had not quite gotten around to that. Apologies! With your source on github I did finally set up another node! It's at http://cypherfunks.p2p.0x0a.nl:36363 (0.9% fee) and it connected to your node without a problem. Huzzah & thanks!

Thanks! Added to the frontpage.