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Author Topic: [ANN][WOLF] Project WOLF  (Read 130988 times)
BlackMarket
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February 28, 2014, 07:52:05 PM
 #621

wow http://coinfinance.com/currencies/WOLF
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InsanityDev (OP)
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March 01, 2014, 03:13:46 AM
 #622


Nice addition Smiley

BTC Pot is at ~65 BTC with about another 50 outstanding now from investors.

I'd like to discuss a money supply model for WOLF after 9 weeks, propose:
  • removal of percentage based fee, replace with a traditional fixed 0.002 WOLF fee
  • a block reward of 0.48 WOLF for weeks 9-26 (total of 17 weeks, this would produce 27417.6 WOLF, 1612.8 per week)
  • a block reward of 0.24 WOLF for weeks 26-52 (this would produce 20966.4, 806.4 per week)
  • a permanent block reward of 0.12 WOLF after week 52 (this would produce 20966.4 per year)

reasoning:
  • 10% tx fee whilst fun at the start, will force hoarding and prevent people from moving WOLF around, even between exchanges
  • the network needs supported, and miners need rewarded for that support
  • we do not want to vastly increase the monetary supply, this proposal would mint ~8.5% of the wolf supply over the first year, then ~3.5% annually (slightly less than the world average inflation rate)

Please do comment, +1, or counter propose. offline for the night

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March 01, 2014, 03:56:04 AM
 #623

+1
keepwalking1234
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March 01, 2014, 05:14:06 AM
 #624


Nice addition Smiley

BTC Pot is at ~65 BTC with about another 50 outstanding now from investors.

I'd like to discuss a money supply model for WOLF after 9 weeks, propose:
  • removal of percentage based fee, replace with a traditional fixed 0.002 WOLF fee
  • a block reward of 0.48 WOLF for weeks 9-26 (total of 17 weeks, this would produce 27417.6 WOLF, 1612.8 per week)
  • a block reward of 0.24 WOLF for weeks 26-52 (this would produce 20966.4, 806.4 per week)
  • a permanent block reward of 0.12 WOLF after week 52 (this would produce 20966.4 per year)

reasoning:
  • 10% tx fee whilst fun at the start, will force hoarding and prevent people from moving WOLF around, even between exchanges
  • the network needs supported, and miners need rewarded for that support
  • we do not want to vastly increase the monetary supply, this proposal would mint ~8.5% of the wolf supply over the first year, then ~3.5% annually (slightly less than the world average inflation rate)

Please do comment, +1, or counter propose. offline for the night

support this!+1

Your dreams are waiting to be realized.
mmihai1978
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March 01, 2014, 07:43:17 AM
Last edit: March 01, 2014, 02:13:26 PM by mmihai1978
 #625


Nice addition Smiley

BTC Pot is at ~65 BTC with about another 50 outstanding now from investors.

I'd like to discuss a money supply model for WOLF after 9 weeks, propose:
  • removal of percentage based fee, replace with a traditional fixed 0.002 WOLF fee
  • a block reward of 0.48 WOLF for weeks 9-26 (total of 17 weeks, this would produce 27417.6 WOLF, 1612.8 per week)
  • a block reward of 0.24 WOLF for weeks 26-52 (this would produce 20966.4, 806.4 per week)
  • a permanent block reward of 0.12 WOLF after week 52 (this would produce 20966.4 per year)

reasoning:
  • 10% tx fee whilst fun at the start, will force hoarding and prevent people from moving WOLF around, even between exchanges
  • the network needs supported, and miners need rewarded for that support
  • we do not want to vastly increase the monetary supply, this proposal would mint ~8.5% of the wolf supply over the first year, then ~3.5% annually (slightly less than the world average inflation rate)

Please do comment, +1, or counter propose. offline for the night

this needs serious thought, wolf will compete with 100+ altcoins. A couple of points / questions as food for thought, in order to prevent 10 hardforks and have just 1 or 2.

No KGW? Coin should have such, if mined.
How will you deal with multipools pointing 25 GH at the coin? And I'm not meaning only difficulty.
Why POW? Why not also POS?
What is the differentiating factor of this coin once it moves to PoW? Technical excellence or strong fundamentals? None is there yet.
What will support the interest hence the price over the 9 weeks? (the initial answer should not be community or trust Smiley
keepwalking1234
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March 01, 2014, 10:50:10 AM
 #626

tomorrow is sunday!

Your dreams are waiting to be realized.
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March 01, 2014, 01:26:25 PM
 #627

Uh, I had a big post but hit the navigate back button on my laptop...FML

The gist of my post was: yeah +1 to what you post, but you also need to retain the unique feature of this coin.

Nothing wrong with ensuring the future of the network, but implement _only_ those changes
and you'll make WOLF a generic coin with no incentive to hold or trade.
And it's value will drop steadily like all the other emerging coins without unique features.

My proposal:
Keep the weekly pot and buyback, but remove the human factor and automatize both (decouple purchasing from this forum and make the buyback on exchanges random).
Ultimately remove the bus factor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor by removing the dependency on you to run this coin.
Raise the price/WOLF incrementally every week, which will raise the base price on the market and give an incentive to hold longer than a week.

That's my 2 ¢ubs.  Grin

Join the pack - Mine WOLF!
P2POOL >>> http://wolf.pomf.me:1666
JTB800
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March 01, 2014, 01:51:32 PM
 #628


Nice addition Smiley

BTC Pot is at ~65 BTC with about another 50 outstanding now from investors.

I'd like to discuss a money supply model for WOLF after 9 weeks, propose:
  • removal of percentage based fee, replace with a traditional fixed 0.002 WOLF fee
  • a block reward of 0.48 WOLF for weeks 9-26 (total of 17 weeks, this would produce 27417.6 WOLF, 1612.8 per week)
  • a block reward of 0.24 WOLF for weeks 26-52 (this would produce 20966.4, 806.4 per week)
  • a permanent block reward of 0.12 WOLF after week 52 (this would produce 20966.4 per year)

reasoning:
  • 10% tx fee whilst fun at the start, will force hoarding and prevent people from moving WOLF around, even between exchanges
  • the network needs supported, and miners need rewarded for that support
  • we do not want to vastly increase the monetary supply, this proposal would mint ~8.5% of the wolf supply over the first year, then ~3.5% annually (slightly less than the world average inflation rate)

Please do comment, +1, or counter propose. offline for the night

OK, I admit that I haven't given this coin (game?) the full analysis that it probably deserves. I thought that I would play it with a small amount and see how it goes for the first couple of weeks. But, one of the things that attracted to me about the coin was the 10% reduction "fee".

Part of that attraction was your arguments for it! In fact in your FAQ section on the front page all questions are answered in some variation of the extreme rarity this coin will have, in no small part due to that very fee. Now it's just fun?

Plus, unlike many other people, I hate miners. They are all in it for a quick buck, they feign enthusiasm  for a coin until such time as they can dump, and they fill up forums with endless chatter about hashrates, forks, configuration files and the relative merits of the AMD 7950 card. I don't blame them for any of that, it's just that this forum was so refreshing in that department.

And if I am not mistaken, didn't you think that hoarding was a good thing at one point? Or at least, if my memory serves me correctly, a viable strategic maneuver?

Finally (for now!), how is this going to differ from all of the other coins out there now? Outside of the next eight weeks, what will make this coin any better or worse than all of the others?

OK, I'll have to think about it some more. Just wanted to give my initial thoughts off the top of my head. Thanks.  
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March 01, 2014, 02:14:02 PM
 #629

Is there a place that shows total number of coins outstanding in circulation after all Tx fees as well as the WOLF you bought and destroyed?

NEM   NanoWallet   SuperNodes   Apostille   Landstead   Catapult   Mijin
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daniklo
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March 01, 2014, 02:37:21 PM
 #630


Nice addition Smiley

BTC Pot is at ~65 BTC with about another 50 outstanding now from investors.

I'd like to discuss a money supply model for WOLF after 9 weeks, propose:
  • removal of percentage based fee, replace with a traditional fixed 0.002 WOLF fee
  • a block reward of 0.48 WOLF for weeks 9-26 (total of 17 weeks, this would produce 27417.6 WOLF, 1612.8 per week)
  • a block reward of 0.24 WOLF for weeks 26-52 (this would produce 20966.4, 806.4 per week)
  • a permanent block reward of 0.12 WOLF after week 52 (this would produce 20966.4 per year)

reasoning:
  • 10% tx fee whilst fun at the start, will force hoarding and prevent people from moving WOLF around, even between exchanges
  • the network needs supported, and miners need rewarded for that support
  • we do not want to vastly increase the monetary supply, this proposal would mint ~8.5% of the wolf supply over the first year, then ~3.5% annually (slightly less than the world average inflation rate)

Please do comment, +1, or counter propose. offline for the night

OK, I admit that I haven't given this coin (game?) the full analysis that it probably deserves. I thought that I would play it with a small amount and see how it goes for the first couple of weeks. But, one of the things that attracted to me about the coin was the 10% reduction "fee".

Part of that attraction was your arguments for it! In fact in your FAQ section on the front page all questions are answered in some variation of the extreme rarity this coin will have, in no small part due to that very fee. Now it's just fun?

Plus, unlike many other people, I hate miners. They are all in it for a quick buck, they feign enthusiasm  for a coin until such time as they can dump, and they fill up forums with endless chatter about hashrates, forks, configuration files and the relative merits of the AMD 7950 card. I don't blame them for any of that, it's just that this forum was so refreshing in that department.

And if I am not mistaken, didn't you think that hoarding was a good thing at one point? Or at least, if my memory serves me correctly, a viable strategic maneuver?

Finally (for now!), how is this going to differ from all of the other coins out there now? Outside of the next eight weeks, what will make this coin any better or worse than all of the others?

OK, I'll have to think about it some more. Just wanted to give my initial thoughts off the top of my head. Thanks.  

I agree with you JTB800
BlackMarket
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March 01, 2014, 03:01:55 PM
 #631

Remember guys, this is after 9 weeks, in that time no more coin at 0.001 from dev and coin remaining will destroyed. so, no more buyback because no more pot available.
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March 01, 2014, 04:18:32 PM
 #632

we do not want to vastly increase the monetary supply, this proposal would mint ~8.5% of the wolf supply over the first year, then ~3.5% annually (slightly less than the world average inflation rate)


Slightly less - oh dear......inflation is rampant between 10 to 20% for the last 5 years. Do not confuse inflation with CPI, RPI, etc.

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March 01, 2014, 04:30:22 PM
 #633


Nice addition Smiley

BTC Pot is at ~65 BTC with about another 50 outstanding now from investors.

I'd like to discuss a money supply model for WOLF after 9 weeks, propose:
  • removal of percentage based fee, replace with a traditional fixed 0.002 WOLF fee
  • a block reward of 0.48 WOLF for weeks 9-26 (total of 17 weeks, this would produce 27417.6 WOLF, 1612.8 per week)
  • a block reward of 0.24 WOLF for weeks 26-52 (this would produce 20966.4, 806.4 per week)
  • a permanent block reward of 0.12 WOLF after week 52 (this would produce 20966.4 per year)

reasoning:
  • 10% tx fee whilst fun at the start, will force hoarding and prevent people from moving WOLF around, even between exchanges
  • the network needs supported, and miners need rewarded for that support
  • we do not want to vastly increase the monetary supply, this proposal would mint ~8.5% of the wolf supply over the first year, then ~3.5% annually (slightly less than the world average inflation rate)

Please do comment, +1, or counter propose. offline for the night

+1
InsanityDev (OP)
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March 01, 2014, 04:38:22 PM
 #634

tldr; generally, think of the 9 week game as (quote:) "very effective initial distribution phase"

this needs serious thought, wolf will compete with 100+ altcoins. A couple of points / questions as food for thought, in order to prevent 10 hardforks and have just 1 or 2.

No KGW? Coin should have such, if mined.
How will you deal with multipools pointing 25 GH at the coin? And I'm not meaning only difficulty.

KGW is a very likely possibility, either as is or a slightly modified version of it.

Why POW? Why not also POS?

That's a good question, please do put forward reasons why PoS may be better for this coin specifically.

What is the differentiating factor of this coin once it moves to PoW? Technical excellence or strong fundamentals? None is there yet.

I have multiple unique features planned for the coin which should distinguish it from the crowd. Ultimately that's why I'm raising these questions now, so I can address the fundamental approach, get everybody on to a longer term stable daemon/qt early, and start implementing the second layer of the coin.

I also hope that this 9 week period proves to strengthen the value of the coin, since it'll be held entirely by people who have had to buy it for a set base cost, no person has a super supply mined and ready to dump at any point.

What will support the interest hence the price over the 9 weeks? (the initial answer should not be community or trust Smiley

There are two major factors, and one which serves as a foundation. The first is the gamification of the distribution phase, it has been modelled in a way where the nine week game serves to increase demand whilst reducing supply. I'm quite sure that by week 5 we will have no WOLF supply left, and a market which is "bumped" each week with a gauranteed amount. The second, and where my primary interest is, concerns rolling out new features and resources every 7-14 days around WOLF. The combination of these two should serve to increase demand and interest by both short and long term holders.

Your initial answer acts as a strong social foundation on which the rest is built: remember we are not even 2 weeks in and we are on target to have 170 BTC+ buy in from traders, over 100 unique WOLF holders, investment to the tune of 60 BTC incoming, and a strong stable base market cap.

The gist of my post was: yeah +1 to what you post, but you also need to retain the unique feature of this coin.

Nothing wrong with ensuring the future of the network, but implement _only_ those changes
and you'll make WOLF a generic coin with no incentive to hold or trade.
And it's value will drop steadily like all the other emerging coins without unique features.

My proposal:
Keep the weekly pot and buyback, but remove the human factor and automatize both (decouple purchasing from this forum and make the buyback on exchanges random).
Ultimately remove the bus factor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor by removing the dependency on you to run this coin.
Raise the price/WOLF incrementally every week, which will raise the base price on the market and give an incentive to hold longer than a week.

Again, I'm trying to get this decision out of the way so that I can release a new long term stable qt+daemon early, and get on developing the distinguishing features to separate it from the crowd. I also suggest that the nature in which holders have acquired will strengthen the long term legitimacy of wolf, since all involved know that others have acquired the coin by investment, rather than by mining free money.

The weekly pot cannot continue after 9 weeks, as there is no more supply. The price cannot be raised each week, as all you'd have is a perpetual dump where each week the previous weeks buyers dumped the coin on the next weeks buyers, I'm sure it would force a collapse of the coin and kill it within a short period of time.

Dependency on me to run the coin (or distribute it) will be gone either way in circa 3 weeks, either by having no supply left, or by having automated distribution (something I'm working on at the minute).

OK, I admit that I haven't given this coin (game?) the full analysis that it probably deserves. I thought that I would play it with a small amount and see how it goes for the first couple of weeks. But, one of the things that attracted to me about the coin was the 10% reduction "fee".

Part of that attraction was your arguments for it! In fact in your FAQ section on the front page all questions are answered in some variation of the extreme rarity this coin will have, in no small part due to that very fee. Now it's just fun?

Fun was certainly the wrong word, the 10% tx fee is a pivotal part of this initial phase where it serves to increase the rarity of the coin, however longer term I'm now concerned that it will limit adoption and the movement of it between parties. I can sum this up simply, how many of you are happy to move coin between wallet and exchange, to different addresses, and back again, as you do with other coins? I know for a fact most of you have had it sent straight to poloniex where you'll keep it. This serves it's purpose whilst the coin is in it's trading game phase, but after 9 weeks it's extremely inhibiting for all.

Plus, unlike many other people, I hate miners. They are all in it for a quick buck, they feign enthusiasm  for a coin until such time as they can dump, and they fill up forums with endless chatter about hashrates, forks, configuration files and the relative merits of the AMD 7950 card. I don't blame them for any of that, it's just that this forum was so refreshing in that department.

I completely agree, I don't hate miners, but I do not appreciate having vast amounts of each currency held by specific miners, it's a time bomb which kills most coins. Hence why I propose such a small block reward, it's enough to provide a stable income for miners who support the insanity coin network, but is not enough to affect the market in any way.

To give rough figures, we expect there to be ~540k WOLF in circulation after 9 weeks, the subsequent mining would produce a further 48.5k over the first year, and ~21k per year after.  Even if WOLF went up to 0.04 BTC per coin that would equate to max 16 BTC worth of coin being bought per week. In other words for the price to go down demand would have to be at less than 16 btc worth per week.

And if I am not mistaken, didn't you think that hoarding was a good thing at one point? Or at least, if my memory serves me correctly, a viable strategic maneuver?

Hoarding certainly is a valid strategy for anybody holding longer term, however it should be a strategy during the game phase, not something which people feel they need to do.. the 10% tx fee over the long term decreases the ease of movement of the currency, and I'm sure you'll agree that one of the major benefits of crypto is that it makes the transfer of money much easier. Even from a trading stand point, if after 9 weeks the currency is on several exchanges, will you appreciate the 10% hit incurred to move it to another exchange, or likewise if you want to move it to a paper wallet, or send some to a friend or family member?

Is there a place that shows total number of coins outstanding in circulation after all Tx fees as well as the WOLF you bought and destroyed?

Partially, you a link on the ann but you need to do some maths over it to get the figures for: how much is sendable (less 10%), how much is left in the supply available to buy, etc. A website is coming next week which will have all these figures on it though Smiley

Thanks for the replies and informed discussion, one of the best things about this coin is the genuinely interested community, you all have a stake and are concerned about it, as opposed to pumping and dumping. It's appreciated Smiley
BTC Pot at ~80, pm's needing a response or pending wolf orders will be handled in the next few minutes

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March 01, 2014, 05:54:58 PM
 #635

Well, yes, on all of your points, but again there are lots of coins out there that use similar, if not exact, configurations. I thought the whole point of this was to be different. Plus, all of the reasons for change were already known as "flaws" going in.

I guess what I am saying, is what big flaw did you discover during this "experiment" that has you reaching the conclusion that it must be changed so early?

And why can't some of this new coin just be given to holders of the current coin, in a sort of POS sort of way? That would encourage the current coin to hold it's value and allow you to fundraise for the new coin as well.

I am not trying to complain and even plan on sending in for a few more shares later today (although, I was planning on doing that anyway). I'm just still a little confused on the thought process. You appear to want to "improve" it, but all of the improvements make it seem like just another coin.   
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March 01, 2014, 06:06:46 PM
 #636

what big flaw did you discover during this "experiment" that has you reaching the conclusion that it must be changed so early?

i would like to know the answer to this question, also.
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March 01, 2014, 06:14:17 PM
 #637

Well, yes, on all of your points, but again there are lots of coins out there that use similar, if not exact, configurations. I thought the whole point of this was to be different. Plus, all of the reasons for change were already known as "flaws" going in.

I guess what I am saying, is what big flaw did you discover during this "experiment" that has you reaching the conclusion that it must be changed so early?

And why can't some of this new coin just be given to holders of the current coin, in a sort of POS sort of way? That would encourage the current coin to hold it's value and allow you to fundraise for the new coin as well.

I am not trying to complain and even plan on sending in for a few more shares later today (although, I was planning on doing that anyway). I'm just still a little confused on the thought process. You appear to want to "improve" it, but all of the improvements make it seem like just another coin.  

no flaw, this is just nailing the configuration of wolf's blockchain for the long term, essentially to ensure that the network remains strong (secure) without impacting the to-be-established value of the coin negatively, something which always needed done and which I'd mentioned several times would need to be discussed.

To clarify, this would not be a new coin, same coin, just exploring and discussing a core model for it after the 9 weeks. I'm discussing it early in order to make the changes in the client, so it's rolled out and ready for them to take effect in 7 weeks time after the game phase.

There are multiple improvements and unique features planned for development of this coin over the coming weeks and months.

Put another way, on the last insanity sunday a market determined value of wolf will be established, with cap etc, at that point the game is over and we need the coin to be stable at it's core for all holders and users.

The innovation and uniqueness runs separately and will be discussed each week with lots of new features added. I just can't really do any of that until this is decided. Consider this period of time we are in now as an effective distribution phase, coupled with the forging of a community and implementation of features. Outside of the game I will be developing this full time.

Hope that clarifies Smiley

pot: 85.5 BTC with 60+ pending.. so half way through week 3's pot now!

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March 01, 2014, 06:31:30 PM
Last edit: March 01, 2014, 07:31:28 PM by flo_k
 #638

Even if WOLF went up to 0.04 BTC per coin

Even?! That's all you expect?  Tongue

what big flaw did you discover during this "experiment" that has you reaching the conclusion that it must be changed so early?  

Dev begins to think beyond the first 9 weeks of "play" and his concerns seem to me very realistic. It is also possible that some of the concerns and suggestions came from the (outstanding) big investors, which want to have more long-term guarantees.
But there is enough time to seek solutions and I'm confident that the dev, with the support of our community, will find the best ones.
InsanityDev (OP)
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March 01, 2014, 06:52:00 PM
 #639

Even if WOLF went up to 0.04 BTC per coin

Even?! That's all you expect?  Tongue

My personal expectations don't come in to it Smiley I just said a figure that equated to a $10m market cap (~540000*0.04*500 [all-wolf*wolf_btc*btc_usd]=~$10m)

(all: for updates + discussion see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=471166.msg5438847#msg5438847 and https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=471166.msg5449872#msg5449872 )

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March 01, 2014, 08:01:15 PM
Last edit: March 01, 2014, 08:16:21 PM by mmihai1978
 #640



pot: 85.5 BTC with 60+ pending.. so half way through week 3's pot now!

it seems i correctly forecasted the pot of this week will be 150 btc Smiley.

question: if you sell 200 btc this week, the market of 0.001 wolf will still be open next week, right?
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