Unofficial BITMINE CoinCraft series 28nm ASIC miners thread

[georgem]

Right the fuck on. Miners actually have a great deal of control over the price. We produce the coins. As long as there is a real world demand for them, we can and do set the price. Or at least it's floor.

I think that was satoshi nakamotos intention since day 1.
To have the miners act like some kind of "night watch" (think game of thrones  ) for the BTC price.

[Biomech]

Right the fuck on. Miners actually have a great deal of control over the price. We produce the coins. As long as there is a real world demand for them, we can and do set the price. Or at least it's floor.

I think that was satoshi nakamotos intention since day 1.

I unfortunately missed day one. I was aware of bitcoin, and mildly interested.  But life took a rather savage turn right about then and I forgot about it for three years. Had I pursued it, I would NOT be broke right now. I saw it's potential and flat out blew it.

Ah well, live and learn. I still see myself as an early adopter, since the coin is five years old.

[georgem]

I unfortunately missed day one. I was aware of bitcoin, and mildly interested.  But life took a rather savage turn right about then and I forgot about it for three years. Had I pursued it, I would NOT be broke right now. I saw it's potential and flat out blew it.

Ah well, live and learn. I still see myself as an early adopter, since the coin is five years old.

I don't think it's so much about how early you entered in BTC realm.

It's more about how long you stayed.

I would be much more upset, if I had bought BTC in 2010 and sold them in 2011.

If I take this wisdow and I apply it to the future... I think the best behaviour is to just hang on for a few years, and quietly accumulate/generate.  Especially if you are a miner.

Imagine all miners acting this way? BTC price would grow a ten-fold.

[grv]

Only if you think like a daytrader who immediately dumps all generated coins on the market.

Why not just keep your coins? Sell them ONLY at a price you are comfortable with.

Waiting is very important if you want to be successful.

...

Yes, if you are one of those miners who depends on the machine to pay monthly bills, then it's gonna be a complete desaster...
...it doesn't work this way... stop thinking in days... start thinking in months and years.

I am going to help BTC by not underselling a specific price level. That's the least I can do, for myself, and the BTC market.

i daytrade and basically if you had put the money into btc instead of preorder back in september you would have made 10 times profit. simple as that.
and you have to sell at least a portion of mined btc to cover your electricity costs, you just cant keep dumping funds into a sinkhole outdated mining hardware is, with delusions on possible future price. once again you're better of buying btc directly.

[Biomech]

Only if you think like a daytrader who immediately dumps all generated coins on the market.

Why not just keep your coins? Sell them ONLY at a price you are comfortable with.

Waiting is very important if you want to be successful.

...

Yes, if you are one of those miners who depends on the machine to pay monthly bills, then it's gonna be a complete desaster...
...it doesn't work this way... stop thinking in days... start thinking in months and years.

I am going to help BTC by not underselling a specific price level. That's the least I can do, for myself, and the BTC market.

i daytrade and basically if you had put the money into btc instead of preorder back in september you would have made 10 times profit. simple as that.
and you have to sell at least a portion of mined btc to cover your electricity costs, you just cant keep dumping funds into a sinkhole outdated mining hardware is, with delusions on possible future price. once again you're better of buying btc directly.

Trouble with that is that if everyone followed that course, there would be no coins, and thus nothing to day trade.

There are more profits than are dreamed of in your philosophy. I mined gold when it wasn't "profitable". And I didn't make a lot of money in exchange. But those weeks in the wilderness with nobody there but myself, my mining buddy, and a shitload of explosives were among the best in my life. I'd do it again in a heartbeat, if I could arrange to feed my family whilst mining. Which just might happen. Now, if I could do that AND run a bitcoin farm off grid at the same time, that would be the life!

And to be fair, you'd probably make more money than me. If that's the game that makes you happy, I'm totally cool with it. But don't assume that miners are ONLY in it for the monetary gain. I think you'll find that a great many of us do it for... very difficult reasons to put into words. There is something about the pursuit of treasure, digital or otherwise, that is it's own reward. The money is secondary.

[grv]

I think that was satoshi nakamotos intention since day 1.
To have the miners act like some kind of "night watch" (think game of thrones  ;D ) for the BTC price.

one of the intentions was to use cpu mining to spread and distribute the hashing power as much as possible
and look how that turned out - first gpu mining killed cpu mining
and then asic killed gpu mining
and now huge mining farms are killing asic for ordinary people, especially with preferential treatment and priority they get from manufacturers.
and if btc goes mainstream and becomes basis for future transactions, mining will become solely a domain of multinational corporations with deep pockets to finance and develop faster and faster hardware.

[georgem]

i daytrade and basically if you had put the money into btc instead of preorder back in september you would have made 10 times profit. simple as that.
and you have to sell at least a portion of mined btc to cover your electricity costs, you just cant keep dumping funds into a sinkhole outdated mining hardware is, with delusions on possible future price. once again you're better of buying btc directly.

It's only a sinkhole for people with tunnel vision.


Say I have a newborn son, who will cost me about 500k to 1000k dollars to raise and educate until he is 25 years old.

Do you consider this "a sinkhole"?
Because yes, from a financial standpoint it's extremely wasteful and uneconomic to have children. But yet most people want to have children.



How about helping the Bitcoin Network with Hashing power, so that this giant experiment succeeds?

[grv]

Trouble with that is that if everyone followed that course, there would be no coins, and thus nothing to day trade.

There are more profits than are dreamed of in your philosophy. I mined gold when it wasn't "profitable". And I didn't make a lot of money in exchange. But those weeks in the wilderness with nobody there but myself, my mining buddy, and a shitload of explosives were among the best in my life. I'd do it again in a heartbeat, if I could arrange to feed my family whilst mining. Which just might happen. Now, if I could do that AND run a bitcoin farm off grid at the same time, that would be the life!

And to be fair, you'd probably make more money than me. If that's the game that makes you happy, I'm totally cool with it. But don't assume that miners are ONLY in it for the monetary gain. I think you'll find that a great many of us do it for... very difficult reasons to put into words. There is something about the pursuit of treasure, digital or otherwise, that is it's own reward. The money is secondary.

dont get me wrong, i both mine and daytrade btc and other cryptos :)
its just this arms race is getting out of control and the only people who are getting burned are customers of unscrupulous companies who rake in profits in multiple hundreds of percent per device, whether its delivered on time or delayed for months.

[Biomech]

I unfortunately missed day one. I was aware of bitcoin, and mildly interested.  But life took a rather savage turn right about then and I forgot about it for three years. Had I pursued it, I would NOT be broke right now. I saw it's potential and flat out blew it.

Ah well, live and learn. I still see myself as an early adopter, since the coin is five years old.

I don't think it's so much about how early you entered in BTC realm.

It's more about how long you stayed.

I would be much more upset, if I had bought BTC in 2010 and sold them in 2011.

If I take this wisdow and I apply it to the future... I think the best behaviour is to just hang on for a few years, and quietly accumulate/generate.  Especially if you are a miner.

Imagine all miners acting this way? BTC price would grow a ten-fold.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. Austrian economics  is kind of an obsession for me. If I had started mining in the early days, I would not have sold much at all. Especially in the CPU days, as I had a half dozen computers running anyway. I wouldn't have cared about the electric bill, as I was making enough at my "real" job. As it moved into GPU's, I probably would have done some minor profit taking in order to upgrade, but I still would have held. I might have sold a bunch during the Cyprus crisis, but no more than 1/4th.

Would have left me sitting pretty when ASIC's came out.

Ah well. One cannot change the past. I'm building hashpower by multiple means right now. I haven't a lot, but it's growing. I'm glad I didn't preorder anything, as I've seen nothing but frustration on that front. Even on the KNC front, and they did about the best of the lot.

Another thing that I think miners ought to be thinking about (I know I am) is developing off grid power solutions. One can extend the life and thus profits of a miner by rather a lot if you only have to pay for your electricity once.

[Biomech]

Trouble with that is that if everyone followed that course, there would be no coins, and thus nothing to day trade.

There are more profits than are dreamed of in your philosophy. I mined gold when it wasn't "profitable". And I didn't make a lot of money in exchange. But those weeks in the wilderness with nobody there but myself, my mining buddy, and a shitload of explosives were among the best in my life. I'd do it again in a heartbeat, if I could arrange to feed my family whilst mining. Which just might happen. Now, if I could do that AND run a bitcoin farm off grid at the same time, that would be the life!

And to be fair, you'd probably make more money than me. If that's the game that makes you happy, I'm totally cool with it. But don't assume that miners are ONLY in it for the monetary gain. I think you'll find that a great many of us do it for... very difficult reasons to put into words. There is something about the pursuit of treasure, digital or otherwise, that is it's own reward. The money is secondary.

dont get me wrong, i both mine and daytrade btc and other cryptos
its just this arms race is getting out of control and the only people who are getting burned are customers of unscrupulous companies who rake in profits in multiple hundreds of percent per device, whether its delivered on time or delayed for months.

I can't disagree with you there.

[georgem]

and here's a reality check - hasing power is getting more and more centralized in hands of few massive mining corporations, and mining is becoming the antithesis to its original purpose.
good bye decentralization.

That's only because the free market doesn't yet provide a solution for the giant mass of people.
The same thing was said about computers in the late 60s. That there is only a market for a handful of computers, big like a house. Kinda reminds me of that situation.

Not a single one of the big hardware manufacturers has yet tried to enter the mining market. No sony, samsung, panasonic, etc.. no nothing.

Now imagine that if BTC gains track, and more and more people really understand what it's all about, and how the system can be helped, and that to keep it decentralized is important for it's success...
... can't you then imagine that 10 billion small hashing devices (in your smartphone, pc, etc) will have a much higher cumulative power than a few centralized super computers?

What I want to say with this is: the reason we have a few massive mining corporations at the moment, is because it's still considered a very "niche" market, with an uncertain future...

Just look at us, here... waiting forever for an amateur company to patch together an overpriced miner!
That's not how a free market works. At the moment it's nothing but an exploitation business.

I am confident that this can and will change in the future. The free market will find a solution, and make everything cheap and fast for everyone to afford.
The free market has already proven with cpus, harddisks, smartphones, etc that it is able to do that.

What we lack now is adoption and world wide desirability.

[grv]

I unfortunately missed day one. I was aware of bitcoin, and mildly interested.  But life took a rather savage turn right about then and I forgot about it for three years. Had I pursued it, I would NOT be broke right now. I saw it's potential and flat out blew it.

Ah well, live and learn. I still see myself as an early adopter, since the coin is five years old.

I don't think it's so much about how early you entered in BTC realm.

It's more about how long you stayed.

I would be much more upset, if I had bought BTC in 2010 and sold them in 2011.

If I take this wisdow and I apply it to the future... I think the best behaviour is to just hang on for a few years, and quietly accumulate/generate.  Especially if you are a miner.

Imagine all miners acting this way? BTC price would grow a ten-fold.

i have been learning about new technologies for decades now, and yes i did try btc mining when it was released.
i did the necessary research and found out it was a waste of resources IN COMPARISON to other distributed computing projects which actually contribute to science (folding, seti, etc)
its a bit sad this crypto mining wasnt designed as a layer over existing distributed computing projects, giving most of the computing power to useful scientific calculations and use crypto hashing as a security/reward layer.

[georgem]

Another thing that I think miners ought to be thinking about (I know I am) is developing off grid power solutions. One can extend the life and thus profits of a miner by rather a lot if you only have to pay for your electricity once.

Yes, but then it's all about location, location.

Maybe I can create an offgrid power solution somewhere in greece or northern africa, but not where I am at the moment.

And then again. If your Miner consumes 2 kW an hour, that would be 48 kW a day...
The best solarpanels might provide 200 watt per Square meter. Per hour mind you. Now say we have 12 hours of sun in a very sunny country.

So if you really plan on running one single 2 TH miner completely offgrid, you will need atleast 20 square meters of solarpanels, and some giant accumulators to deliver the power over night.
(200 watt * 12 hours = 2400 Watt. To reach 48 KW we need 20 of those.)

So a 4 x 5 meter solar surface for one 2 TH miner.  

Crazy.

P.S And don't forget about cooling a constantly working 2kW device in such a hot environment... Scary...

[xray]

anyone charged taxes or duty on there coindesk yet ?

[Biomech]

Another thing that I think miners ought to be thinking about (I know I am) is developing off grid power solutions. One can extend the life and thus profits of a miner by rather a lot if you only have to pay for your electricity once.

Yes, but then it's all about location, location.

Maybe I can create an offgrid power solution somewhere in greece or northern africa, but not where I am at the moment.

And then again. If your Miner consumes 2 kW an hour, that would be 48 kW a day...
The best solarpanels might provide 200 watt per Square meter. Per hour mind you. Now say we have 12 hours of sun in a very sunny country.

So if you really plan on running one single 2 TH miner completely offgrid, you will need atleast 20 square meters of solarpanels, and some giant accumulators to deliver the power over night.
(200 watt * 12 hours = 2400 Watt. To reach 48 KW we need 20 of those.)

So a 4 x 5 meter solar surface for one 2 TH miner.  

Crazy.

P.S And don't forget about cooling a constantly working 2kW device in such a hot environment... Scary...

Off grid don't have to be solar. I have a lot of ideas on this. Off grid power has been something I've been fascinated with since... Hell, all of my life. My dad is an electrician, and he and I have discussed this off and on for as long as I can recall.

But this isn't the place for it. I'll start a thread on the subject a bit later, when I have some of my reference material close to hand.  For now, suffice it to say that for a serious off grid system, you don't want to plan around a single power source.

[matthewh3]

in 2-3 months (...)

Learn the math first.

or maybe you should research stuff before mouthing off - try some of advanced mining calculators which take into consideration difficulty rise - you're looking at jun-july tops, to be in green, after that you will not generate enough to even cover electricity cost.
if you got access to free electricity good for you, but most people dont.

You are mistaken if you think 28nm chips will not even pay for their own electricity use for an average kWh cost by June.  Otherwise the network hashrate would shrink dramatically as even the most efficient chips couldn't even cover their own power costs    I remembered hearing this last September when average difficulty growth was much higher than now and said the same then.  28nm chips will stay profitable until a much smaller fabrication size chips is the majority of the network hashrate.

[SolarSilver]

You are mistaken if you think 28nm chips will not even pay for their own electricity use for an average kWh cost by June.  Otherwise the network hashrate would shrink dramatically as even the most efficient chips couldn't even cover their own power costs    I remembered hearing this last September when average difficulty growth was much higher than now and said the same then.  28nm chips will stay profitable until a much smaller fabrication size chips is the majority of the network hashrate.

While I'd like to believe this argument, it does not add up with the reality that a lot of vendors are dumping more and more equipment on the market in the following months, all of it still 28 nm.

While they may cover the electricity costs, the hardware investment we paid was far too expensive. In a few months, they will sell off old designs for a fraction, just look at the price evolution of the USB miners ASICminer sold.

And there is only BTC 3600 / day to be shared amounts all these hungry mouths

[matthewh3]

You are mistaken if you think 28nm chips will not even pay for their own electricity use for an average kWh cost by June.  Otherwise the network hashrate would shrink dramatically as even the most efficient chips couldn't even cover their own power costs    I remembered hearing this last September when average difficulty growth was much higher than now and said the same then.  28nm chips will stay profitable until a much smaller fabrication size chips is the majority of the network hashrate.

While I'd like to believe this argument, it does not add up with the reality that a lot of vendors are dumping more and more equipment on the market in the following months, all of it still 28 nm.

While they may cover the electricity costs, the hardware investment we paid was far too expensive. In a few months, they will sell off old designs for a fraction, just look at the price evolution of the USB miners ASICminer sold.

And there is only BTC 3600 / day to be shared amounts all these hungry mouths

If you remember the GPU and FPGA days you will remember that power costs were a big factor in mining profitability.  Hence expansive FPGA's coming out with the same hashrate as a high end GPU only much less power consumption.  Power costs will become a factor again sooner rather than later.  Unless there is another major rally in bitcoin price.  Bitmine chips are the most efficient chips released to date so have a major advantage.  Also, please remember that network hashrate growth follows price growth.  The current drop in price though, won't have a major effect on network hashrate growth for at least three months yet.  Or six months for the full effect of reducing ASIC production.  Who know's what the bitcoin price will be in six months.  Although I can't really see it dropping much further any more.  The price could bubble to $5k by the end of the year.  While you may think that sounds extreme well last spring a high of $500 was floated to be reached before the end of the year and most people laughed.  Then bitcoin went >$1k before the end of the year.  I think reaching $2k is a very real possibility within the next six months.  While a bubble reaching $5k within the next twelve months is a very real possibility going off historical bitcoin price rises.

[crocko]

Hello !

I have the order #38xx  (from December 4th 2013, February week 3 batch #2)
I am really confused, so I ask for your help: my CPP is it triggered yet ? And 50% is the max that a customer can receive ?
On the official page there is no 50% mentioned, but GM wrote this on https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=291141.msg5362648#msg5362648
I quote:
7) Refunds are not mandatory: if you don't request them with our refund request form, we won't be doing this automagically for you. You can opt to wait for your 50% (the maximum) compensated order to be delivered for any amount of time.

There is no additional compensation for  the "turbo-mode"  ?

[grv]

You are mistaken if you think 28nm chips will not even pay for their own electricity use for an average kWh cost by June.  Otherwise the network hashrate would shrink dramatically as even the most efficient chips couldn't even cover their own power costs  ::)  I remembered hearing this last September when average difficulty growth was much higher than now and said the same then.  28nm chips will stay profitable until a much smaller fabrication size chips is the majority of the network hashrate.

http://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/calculator