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Author Topic: FPGA development board "Icarus" - DisContinued/ important announcement  (Read 184261 times)
cuz0882
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January 03, 2012, 04:08:09 AM
 #221

I think it will take longer then that. The power costs are still pretty low on the gpu's. I pay under 3 cents a watt, which is around 6 percent of profits right now. It could play a bigger role if the bitcoin price drops under $2.00 and makes it unprofitable in areas with high power costs. Even then they will still be competing with people like me who can profit unless it drops under $1.00 I think maybe in 7 or more years it could compete, depending on how well bitcoin holds its value.

Electricity costs are 6% of the profits because you are only competing with miners that have cheap electricity like you. FPGAs will allow almost everyone to mine. You can expect a significant difficulty increase during 2012 even if the bitcoin price remains the same.


Pretty sure I'm competing with everyone mining bitcoins. People with cheap power like me are just getting higher profits and are going to be less effected by FPGA's. It costs me $1500 to build a pc that mines 2.4Ghash and costs me $25 a month in power to run it. I don't feel like doing the math but they have a long ways to go.
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There are several different types of Bitcoin clients. Header-only clients like MultiBit trust that the majority of mining power is honest for the purposes of enforcing network rules such as the 21 million BTC limit. Full clients do not trust miners in this way.
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January 03, 2012, 02:23:16 PM
 #222

It's impressive but I hope these things never get to a price that would cause the main stream to buy them. It would drive the bitcoin price down since they use such little power. Investing in a normal mining rig is not to risky, even if the price dropped to nothing the parts could be sold for a decent return. I would image these would be near worthless outside of mining.

It is inevitable but IMHO the switch will be longer paced then from CPU to GPU.  Like you said there is substantial capital risk.  Especially if you bought a lot.  Still I plan to dabble in FGPA in 2012 but it likely will be some time before I have 10GH of FGPA miners to replace my 5970 farm. 

Still on a long enough timeline (say 3+ years) I see FPGA slowly killing off GPU mining.  A re-enactment of the GPU vs CPU battle on a larger timescale.  AMD craptastic (for mining) 7000 series only helps FPGA.  Had they delivered double the performance per watt and per dollar it would have readjusted the comparison metrics for FPGA and made them risky.  Luckily for the OP AMD didn't deliver. Smiley

I think it will take longer then that. The power costs are still pretty low on the gpu's. I pay under 3 cents a watt, which is around 6 percent of profits right now. It could play a bigger role if the bitcoin price drops under $2.00 and makes it unprofitable in areas with high power costs. Even then they will still be competing with people like me who can profit unless it drops under $1.00 I think maybe in 7 or more years it could compete, depending on how well bitcoin holds its value.

I would guess among those paying for power 95% of network is paying > 3 cents.  Yeah that is a good posistion for you to be in and likely you could continue to mine w/ GPU long after most of the network can't.   Still US average is 11 cents and that is rather low compared to rest of developed world.  Most parts of Europe are 15 to 40 cents per kWh.

Obviously FPGA are attractive are most attractive the higher ones rates are but as they replace GPU they will make the network more and more efficient which makes more miners become the new "marginal miner". 

You likely have a long time but I doubt the entire network has that long.  Still even 7 is agreeing with the inevitability of FPGA replacing GPU.
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January 03, 2012, 06:44:41 PM
 #223

Hello,
to add some math to this disscussion i would like to advertise my new

"Bitcoin mine or invest spreadsheet & mining rig comparison spreadsheet"
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=56475.new#new

Please use it to find your very own answer about how your minig rig will perform.

I hope it is helpfull to you all  Smiley

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January 03, 2012, 08:05:27 PM
 #224

It's impressive but I hope these things never get to a price that would cause the main stream to buy them. It would drive the bitcoin price down since they use such little power. Investing in a normal mining rig is not to risky, even if the price dropped to nothing the parts could be sold for a decent return. I would image these would be near worthless outside of mining.
It is inevitable but IMHO the switch will be longer paced then from CPU to GPU.  Like you said there is substantial capital risk.  Especially if you bought a lot.  Still I plan to dabble in FGPA in 2012 but it likely will be some time before I have 10GH of FGPA miners to replace my 5970 farm. 

Still on a long enough timeline (say 3+ years) I see FPGA slowly killing off GPU mining.  A re-enactment of the GPU vs CPU battle on a larger timescale. 
...
I think it will take longer then that. The power costs are still pretty low on the gpu's. I pay under 3 cents a watt, which is around 6 percent of profits right now. It could play a bigger role if the bitcoin price drops under $2.00 and makes it unprofitable in areas with high power costs. Even then they will still be competing with people like me who can profit unless it drops under $1.00 I think maybe in 7 or more years it could compete, depending on how well bitcoin holds its value.
I would guess among those paying for power 95% of network is paying > 3 cents.  Yeah that is a good posistion for you to be in and likely you could continue to mine w/ GPU long after most of the network can't.   Still US average is 11 cents and that is rather low compared to rest of developed world.  Most parts of Europe are 15 to 40 cents per kWh.

Obviously FPGA are attractive are most attractive the higher ones rates are but as they replace GPU they will make the network more and more efficient which makes more miners become the new "marginal miner". 

You likely have a long time but I doubt the entire network has that long.  Still even 7 is agreeing with the inevitability of FPGA replacing GPU.

I agree with DeathAndTaxes; I think he has made a valid analysis. Using $0.03/kWh as an example is not particularly useful, as it is not realistic for most miners; a realistic rate is $0.11/kWh (average for US), or higher (EU). At $0.03/kWh it may make sense to stay with a GPU-based system in the short to medium term; no one is arguing that.

The transition from CPU to GPU mining happened before my time (a year ago? 18 months?), but I can envision how it went and why it would have been a very quick transition. The eventual transition from GPU to FPGA (or ASIC, or similar tech) is inevitable; there is no doubt in my mind about that, though I fully expect it to be a slow drawn-out one. We've already witnessed a significant surge of interest in FPGAs (and actual shipping product) here in the forums since the summer.

2012 will see significant FPGA adoption (~100GHash/s would be my guess) but I suspect it will be several years before we see FPGAs reach 50% of the aggregate network hashrate (8THash/s today; likely higher in the future). As the balance tips, today's 'efficient' GPU miners will become the new 'inefficient' miners and see their profits drop. At some point most miners will be drawn into the FPGA camp by simple economics.

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January 04, 2012, 03:30:10 PM
 #225

Wow Zhang, the new core and new software are quite an improvement !

I pull every 5 minutes my hourly average from Deepbit and it's around 400 MH/s for Icarus Shocked Shocked

Code:
Wed Jan  4 14:45:01 CET 2012,392.30508475
Wed Jan  4 14:50:01 CET 2012,397.11864407
Wed Jan  4 14:55:01 CET 2012,380.27118644
Wed Jan  4 15:00:01 CET 2012,383.88135593
Wed Jan  4 15:05:01 CET 2012,381.47457627
Wed Jan  4 15:10:01 CET 2012,383.88135593
Wed Jan  4 15:15:01 CET 2012,400.72881356
Wed Jan  4 15:20:01 CET 2012,407.94915254
Wed Jan  4 15:25:01 CET 2012,398.3220339
Wed Jan  4 15:30:01 CET 2012,398.3220339
Wed Jan  4 15:35:01 CET 2012,394.71186441
Wed Jan  4 15:40:01 CET 2012,389.89830508
Wed Jan  4 15:45:01 CET 2012,397.11864407
Quote from: deepbit
04 Jan 2012 14:38:14 117 / 938379 390.000 MH/s
04 Jan 2012 14:16:55 134 / 1041935 407.452 MH/s

This is really wonderfull, and I'm also excited that my next Icarus will cost me just 1 Euro per MH/s Cool
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January 04, 2012, 10:47:40 PM
 #226

Does the software run on Macs?

xiangfu
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January 05, 2012, 01:57:44 AM
 #227

Wow Zhang, the new core and new software are quite an improvement !

I pull every 5 minutes my hourly average from Deepbit and it's around 400 MH/s for Icarus Shocked Shocked

are you using impact under Windows to flash the .bit to Icarus?
are you using the software in the DVD ship with ngzhang?

thanks
xiangfu

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January 05, 2012, 05:53:38 AM
 #228

Good question. I'd like to know what the bitstream upgrade process is. Wwhether it can be done under Linux, and if you need to install the full Xilinx tool chain or is there a simple program to run that can do an upgrade without future license complications?

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January 05, 2012, 06:05:55 AM
 #229

yes. under Linux and without license complications will be GREAT. we can try UrJtag with a usb-jtag cable. we needs more info about how the FPGA talk with flash. for such flash. do we needs init the flash bus. like upload a flash.bit first?

Good question. I'd like to know what the bitstream upgrade process is. Wwhether it can be done under Linux, and if you need to install the full Xilinx tool chain or is there a simple program to run that can do an upgrade without future license complications?

Mining is a drug, cherish your life, stay away from mining.
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January 05, 2012, 10:53:37 AM
 #230

I really hope to get involved with FPGAs later this year, perhaps in February?  January is my busy season.  I'd be willing to buy one of these or "toss money in the pot" for their development.  I just need to do some learning before I can buy something like this.

Happy New Year!

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January 05, 2012, 12:31:25 PM
 #231

Wow Zhang, the new core and new software are quite an improvement !

I pull every 5 minutes my hourly average from Deepbit and it's around 400 MH/s for Icarus Shocked Shocked

are you using impact under Windows to flash the .bit to Icarus?
are you using the software in the DVD ship with ngzhang?

thanks
xiangfu

Yes, I used impact under windows 2008 x64 and w7 x64, from the software package.
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January 05, 2012, 02:11:54 PM
 #232

I made a nice graph that visualizes the improvement in miningspeed with the new beta core and software.
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January 05, 2012, 02:40:06 PM
 #233

Ngzhang, could you make a guide ( FPGA noob-friendly, please  Embarrassed ) showing how to update the new mining software?

It could be coiped to the github, for future users and future updates.

server, if you are also willing to help, it would be nice!  Smiley
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January 05, 2012, 03:31:14 PM
 #234

server, if you are also willing to help, it would be nice!  Smiley

Is this helping ? Pictures say more than a thousand words Grin

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January 05, 2012, 04:14:54 PM
 #235

Ngzhang, could you make a guide ( FPGA noob-friendly, please  Embarrassed ) showing how to update the new mining software?

It could be coiped to the github, for future users and future updates.

server, if you are also willing to help, it would be nice!  Smiley


i will do it, but now at github is a beta ver bitsteam... my original purpose is that who don't know how to use, then don't use (at this time).
still some small modify is needed. and i may write a guide. Cheesy

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January 05, 2012, 04:16:26 PM
 #236

Not ready to pull the trigger yet but the latest updates seem very promising!  Grin
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January 05, 2012, 10:31:26 PM
 #237

Ok, thanks ngzhang and server!  Smiley
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January 05, 2012, 10:54:02 PM
 #238

I presume that the second batch will come with the new "beta" core preloaded, no?

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January 06, 2012, 04:26:13 AM
 #239

I presume that the second batch will come with the new "beta" core preloaded, no?

no, will ship buy with a final released core.

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January 06, 2012, 05:25:32 AM
 #240

I presume that the second batch will come with the new "beta" core preloaded, no?

no, will ship buy with a final released core.

Ah ok, I understand. Excellent Smiley The more MH/s the better.

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