[ANN] Spondoolies-Tech - carrier grade, data center ready mining rigs

[Guy Corem]

In my opinion the whole ASIC adventure was detrimental to bitcoin, producing gigantic difficulty crunch with almost no benefits.
As I see now, GPUs are just fine for securing the network as long as there are enough of them being deployed.
There are possibly 10-100 times more people willing to run GPUs than there are people who run ASIC-based miners.
The result is mining centralization and possible stagnation.
My worry is that bitcoin will turn out to be the yahoo and myspace of crypto while others (with one obvious candidate) run away as potential google, facebook of this space. That would be bad for me personally as I invested much more in btc success.

In recent days, some core developers are suggesting HF to disable AsicBoost advantage (we call it Merkle Collisions).
I wander why not take it few steps further and ensure GPU only mining.
No one in his/her right mind will consider developing ASIC for Ethereum, since Vitalic will change the POW immediately.
I agree that GPU only POW will cause greater decentralization.
Cross reference with my proposal here:
https://medium.com/@vcorem/lesson-learned-from-the-classic-coup-attempt-or-why-core-needs-to-prepare-a-gpu-only-pow-6a9afe18e4b0#.ly56awsh4

Guy

[Unacceptable]

In my opinion the whole ASIC adventure was detrimental to bitcoin, producing gigantic difficulty crunch with almost no benefits.
As I see now, GPUs are just fine for securing the network as long as there are enough of them being deployed.
There are possibly 10-100 times more people willing to run GPUs than there are people who run ASIC-based miners.
The result is mining centralization and possible stagnation.
My worry is that bitcoin will turn out to be the yahoo and myspace of crypto while others (with one obvious candidate) run away as potential google, facebook of this space. That would be bad for me personally as I invested much more in btc success.

Agreed,BTC is already centralized by those same folks that once depended upon us,the home miners.

Do you think they care about BTC?? No,only the income it generates for them,that is all...............

[smooth]

In recent days, some core developers are suggesting HF to disable AsicBoost advantage (we call it Merkle Collisions).
I wander why not take it few steps further and ensure GPU only mining.
No one in his/her right mind will consider developing ASIC for Ethereum, since Vitalic will change the POW immediately.

Because neither the core developers nor, I think, most of the rest of us in the ecosystem want to rely on a (bus factor one, BTW) Vitalik to change PoW immediately.

That said, choosing among the least bad options is not always easy. I agree with the comments about ASIC mining being bad, but I'm not sure what is least bad.

[RoadStress]

In my opinion the whole ASIC adventure was detrimental to bitcoin, producing gigantic difficulty crunch with almost no benefits.
As I see now, GPUs are just fine for securing the network as long as there are enough of them being deployed.
There are possibly 10-100 times more people willing to run GPUs than there are people who run ASIC-based miners.
The result is mining centralization and possible stagnation.
My worry is that bitcoin will turn out to be the yahoo and myspace of crypto while others (with one obvious candidate) run away as potential google, facebook of this space. That would be bad for me personally as I invested much more in btc success.

You are really ignoring the level of security the network has right now!

[smooth]

In my opinion the whole ASIC adventure was detrimental to bitcoin, producing gigantic difficulty crunch with almost no benefits.
As I see now, GPUs are just fine for securing the network as long as there are enough of them being deployed.
There are possibly 10-100 times more people willing to run GPUs than there are people who run ASIC-based miners.
The result is mining centralization and possible stagnation.
My worry is that bitcoin will turn out to be the yahoo and myspace of crypto while others (with one obvious candidate) run away as potential google, facebook of this space. That would be bad for me personally as I invested much more in btc success.

You are really ignoring the level of security the network has right now!

The level of security is unknowable. You can't measure it in hashes or whatever, as long as miners are able to collude, and that's facilitated by having high miner concentration. All of which is somewhat unknowable to an extent, but doesn't look great.

[Biodom]

In my opinion the whole ASIC adventure was detrimental to bitcoin, producing gigantic difficulty crunch with almost no benefits.
As I see now, GPUs are just fine for securing the network as long as there are enough of them being deployed.
There are possibly 10-100 times more people willing to run GPUs than there are people who run ASIC-based miners.
The result is mining centralization and possible stagnation.
My worry is that bitcoin will turn out to be the yahoo and myspace of crypto while others (with one obvious candidate) run away as potential google, facebook of this space. That would be bad for me personally as I invested much more in btc success.

You are really ignoring the level of security the network has right now!

I am with @smooth on this one. How could you measure this?
Also, 1 mil GPUs could be just as good if not better if it meant 1mil nodes.
Nodes are disappearing on bitcoin side and growing somewhere else.

[s1gs3gv]

Just as an idle conjecture, wouldn't bitcoin prices have to be significantly higher to maintain a network which was primarily gpu based, and therefore less energy efficient ?

[Finksy]

Just as an idle conjecture, wouldn't bitcoin prices have to be significantly higher to maintain a network which was primarily gpu based, and therefore less energy efficient ?

Difficulty rating would adjust downwards to make GPU mining just profitable enough, it would really be no different (except that the demand for GPU's would skyrocket, and with it likely the price).  Difficulty and price go hand in hand, though don't necessarily influence one another. At one time (i.e. difficulty), CPU mining was profitable. It's not strictly dependent on price.  It bears some resemblance to a "perfect market".

[philipma1957]

Just as an idle conjecture, wouldn't bitcoin prices have to be significantly higher to maintain a network which was primarily gpu based, and therefore less energy efficient ?

BTC is going to die due to Asic's and Chinese Asic building tactics combine with self-mining.

I am in my late 50's and have seen a lot of patterns of commerce unfold.

Eth coin with a deadman's switch to pos  has a better take on the game then BTC.

BTC is all about power cost... Due  Chinese builder's of  asic chips and not spreading them through out the world.

   So as a developer  that likes the general idea of crypto coins  how do a pull a David on Goliath?

  I make Eth coin to be followed by  Eth 2 new algorithm coin.  Thus the general ability of the GPU to mine endless algorithms  bitche slaps all asic builders with dirt cheap power that practice self mining tactics.

China will still be able to mine cheaply with gpus ,but they won't have as much control over the distribution of them.


Asic building may die or They will be forced to adapt.  By simply allowing chip sales out of their country so developers can make gear suited to the smaller low power guy.  I know of 1800 senior citizen home in developments that us electric baseboard radiators  all of them would be perfect for an s-3 type unit with a built in psu.  That takes the hash out of big ass farms that are wasting the heat by not using it.

At finksy there are at  least 100,000 gpus if they were r9 390's mining 24/7/365 mining eth coin certainly enough to catch the attention of Nvidia and AMD. Since it is more then likely  it is 300,000 gpus mining some of the time.  A gamer now buys the r9 390 and lets it mine while he sleeps.  So in a few months his r9 390 only cost him ½ the price.

They will see pushing a new coin after Eth as an advertising cost.  

[Biffa]

Just as an idle conjecture, wouldn't bitcoin prices have to be significantly higher to maintain a network which was primarily gpu based, and therefore less energy efficient ?

BTC is going to die due to Asic's and Chinese Asic building tactics combine with self-mining.

I am in my late 50's and have seen a lot of patterns of commerce unfold.

Eth coin with a deadman's switch to pos  has a better take on the game then BTC.

BTC is all about power cost... Due  Chinese builder's of  asic chips and not spreading them through out the world.

   So as a developer  that likes the general idea of crypto coins  how do a pull a David on Goliath?

  I make Eth coin to be followed by  Eth 2 new algorithm coin.  Thus the general ability of the GPU to mine endless algorithms  bitche slaps all asic builders with dirt cheap power that practice self mining tactics.

China will still be able to mine cheaply with gpus ,but they won't have as much control over the distribution of them.


Asic building may die or They will be forced to adapt.  By simply allowing chip sales out of their country so developers can make gear suited to the smaller low power guy.  I know of 1800 senior citizen home in developments that us electric baseboard radiators  all of them would be perfect for an s-3 type unit with a built in psu.  That takes the hash out of big ass farms that are wasting the heat by not using it.

At finksy there are at  least 100,000 gpus if they were r9 390's mining 24/7/365 mining eth coin certainly enough to catch the attention of Nvidia and AMD. Since it is more then likely  it is 300,000 gpus mining some of the time.  A gamer now buys the r9 390 and lets it mine while he sleeps.  So in a few months his r9 390 only cost him ½ the price.

They will see pushing a new coin after Eth as an advertising cost.  

Surely all someone has to do is come up with a way to build a ASIC miner packaged multi gpu box. i.e. buy the GPU's and mount multiples of them on boards like many of the current multi-small-asic miners (antminer, avalon, etc) clock them low enough to be kept cool by heatsinks and large fan combos and you are back in the mining race.

Yes it depends on being able to get raw gpu cores from AMD or whoever, or develop their own programmable asic but given the right incentives (money) someone will come up with a method of concentrating the crunching power into "boxes".

[philipma1957]

Just as an idle conjecture, wouldn't bitcoin prices have to be significantly higher to maintain a network which was primarily gpu based, and therefore less energy efficient ?

BTC is going to die due to Asic's and Chinese Asic building tactics combine with self-mining.

I am in my late 50's and have seen a lot of patterns of commerce unfold.

Eth coin with a deadman's switch to pos  has a better take on the game then BTC.

BTC is all about power cost... Due  Chinese builder's of  asic chips and not spreading them through out the world.

   So as a developer  that likes the general idea of crypto coins  how do a pull a David on Goliath?

  I make Eth coin to be followed by  Eth 2 new algorithm coin.  Thus the general ability of the GPU to mine endless algorithms  bitche slaps all asic builders with dirt cheap power that practice self mining tactics.

China will still be able to mine cheaply with gpus ,but they won't have as much control over the distribution of them.


Asic building may die or They will be forced to adapt.  By simply allowing chip sales out of their country so developers can make gear suited to the smaller low power guy.  I know of 1800 senior citizen home in developments that us electric baseboard radiators  all of them would be perfect for an s-3 type unit with a built in psu.  That takes the hash out of big ass farms that are wasting the heat by not using it.

At finksy there are at  least 100,000 gpus if they were r9 390's mining 24/7/365 mining eth coin certainly enough to catch the attention of Nvidia and AMD. Since it is more then likely  it is 300,000 gpus mining some of the time.  A gamer now buys the r9 390 and lets it mine while he sleeps.  So in a few months his r9 390 only cost him ½ the price.

They will see pushing a new coin after Eth as an advertising cost.  

Surely all someone has to do is come up with a way to build a ASIC miner packaged multi gpu box. i.e. buy the GPU's and mount multiples of them on boards like many of the current multi-small-asic miners (antminer, avalon, etc) clock them low enough to be kept cool by heatsinks and large fan combos and you are back in the mining race.

Yes it depends on being able to get raw gpu cores from AMD or whoever, or develop their own programmable asic but given the right incentives (money) someone will come up with a method of concentrating the crunching power into "boxes".

Maybe.  Here is what I have been looking at from an economic viewpoint.

 AMD and Nvidia  are bigger by far then any asic company.
 They have a vested interest in finding ways to market GPU's.
 Eth coin is responsible for about 100,000 r9 390's in hash power  24/7/365
 When you breakdown that 100,000 number   we all know that some gamers will mine while they sleep and turn the mining off while they game.
 Also some mine with r9 380's  so Eth coin has driven far more sales then  100,000 r9's
 So both Nvidia and AMD   can prop up Eth coin as an advertising cost.
 Asrock builds a gpu mining board so  they can prop up Eth coin as an advertising cost.
 Intel sells cpus they can prop up eth coin as an advertising cost
 Amd sell cpus   they can prop up eth coin as an advertising cost.


All of the above companies have zero interest or gain from asic chips.

So from an economical viewpoint   GPU mining is going to stick around.

I see huge issues for Asic companies down the road. 

A simple this ' tape will self destruct ' method for Eth coin.  Ie turn it into a pos only coin once an asic builder makes a chip to mine it.

We already have  Eth coin 2 in place with a new algorithm  to fend off asics.  You can keep your Eth 1 coin as pos or convert it to Eth 2 coin as pow


  If I was an asic company  I would be shitting myself as this could mean death to asic mining.

Note bitmaintech now has come out with a s-7 lite version in my opinion due to eth coin explosion.

[sidehack]

What's the critera for Eth to jump algorithms? Is there an automated conversion of Eth1 to Eth2 in the protocol? Is there a "central authority" handling that jump and those conversions?

[Guy Corem]

What's the critera for Eth to jump algorithms? Is there an automated conversion of Eth1 to Eth2 in the protocol? Is there a "central authority" handling that jump and those conversions?

Eth will simply hard fork. Done in the past successfully, no issue.

[sidehack]

That doesn't answer any of my questions. Who decides? Is it consensus, or is it central? Is the coin designed to be replaced, or is the transition seamless requiring no consumer intervention? Because from where I sit, there's no reason at all to support a coin that doesn't have long-term viability as a primary goal. Just throwing that out there.

[Guy Corem]

That doesn't answer any of my questions. Who decides? Is it consensus, or is it central? Is the coin designed to be replaced, or is the transition seamless requiring no consumer intervention? Because from where I sit, there's no reason at all to support a coin that doesn't have long-term viability as a primary goal. Just throwing that out there.

The development team (read Vitalik) will decide.

[ManeBjorn]

They have also stated they will end the POW phase in a year or so as well. It will be interesting to see how they fork goes when they do.

What's the critera for Eth to jump algorithms? Is there an automated conversion of Eth1 to Eth2 in the protocol? Is there a "central authority" handling that jump and those conversions?

[klondike_bar]

They have also stated they will end the POW phase in a year or so as well. It will be interesting to see how they fork goes when they do.

What's the critera for Eth to jump algorithms? Is there an automated conversion of Eth1 to Eth2 in the protocol? Is there a "central authority" handling that jump and those conversions?

a few months ago they were saying PoW ends sometime in summer or fall, ten tey pushed it to winter/2017, and now it sounds like summer 2017?

[adaseb]

Isn't the SHA256 algo at their absolute limits with the 16nm chip technology? We might get a 0.1W/GHS miner but I don't think we will get 0.001W/GHS anytime soon.

[CjMapope]

They have also stated they will end the POW phase in a year or so as well. It will be interesting to see how they fork goes when they do.

What's the critera for Eth to jump algorithms? Is there an automated conversion of Eth1 to Eth2 in the protocol? Is there a "central authority" handling that jump and those conversions?

a few months ago they were saying PoW ends sometime in summer or fall, ten tey pushed it to winter/2017, and now it sounds like summer 2017?

that's what i was thinkin.  lots of people invested in GPU mining ETH lately, maybe their "pot commited" to the community to keep pow now?

[philipma1957]

What's the critera for Eth to jump algorithms? Is there an automated conversion of Eth1 to Eth2 in the protocol? Is there a "central authority" handling that jump and those conversions?

all good questions.

 Don't know the system of checks and balances beyond the 'Name' Vitalik.

But looking at their concept as a way to combat asic builder concentration monopolies  it is viable method to keep asics out of Eth Coin ie always gpu driven.

As I listed the companies above that would prefer a solid gpu coin to mine  they are big companies.  I would also argue Microsoft is financial better off if Eth coin does well then it BTC does well.

Why  how about they make a Windows 2016 miner os  to be used with a pc that is mostly for mining and some surfing.

They would have an interest in a Gpu coin being a success as it drives the sales of gamer/ miners power by windows 2016 os.

Desktop sales have dropped off so all desktop builders have an interest in selling desktops that can mine.