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Author Topic: French Soccer League Predictions and Discussion Thread (Ligue 1)  (Read 144998 times)
makishart
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April 27, 2023, 05:38:25 AM
 #13001


What a horrible season for Paris Saint-German, they lost the champions league easily against Bayern Munich, in the French league they had unstable results and they lose many points while they could have had a better performance because of the players they got, also Paris Saint-German will lose many superstar players like Messi and Neymar at the end of this season which can be hard for them to find the players to replace with them.

Taking league 1 as the trophy that PSG can win is more than enough this time. I don't expect more than it. PSG was even feeling so difficult to win any matches. If it's not messi who always been helping the club to win any matches.
PSG will be losing messi next season. This gonna another disaster for PSG caused by we do know how big the contribution that already made by messi to the PSG. as a player with the highest rating in the club. Messi's role is very important for PSG but that's sad messi decides to leave from PSG and move back to the barcelona again. Messi and neymar will find its new club again soon.

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April 27, 2023, 05:54:03 AM
 #13002


What a horrible season for Paris Saint-German, they lost the champions league easily against Bayern Munich, in the French league they had unstable results and they lose many points while they could have had a better performance because of the players they got, also Paris Saint-German will lose many superstar players like Messi and Neymar at the end of this season which can be hard for them to find the players to replace with them.

Taking league 1 as the trophy that PSG can win is more than enough this time. I don't expect more than it. PSG was even feeling so difficult to win any matches. If it's not messi who always been helping the club to win any matches.
PSG will be losing messi next season. This gonna another disaster for PSG caused by we do know how big the contribution that already made by messi to the PSG. as a player with the highest rating in the club. Messi's role is very important for PSG but that's sad messi decides to leave from PSG and move back to the barcelona again. Messi and neymar will find its new club again soon.
However, Paris Saint Germain must change their habits in recruiting players. Maybe it would be better if they start changing the composition of players with younger players to prepare their strengths in the long term. The reason is, what they have done these past few seasons by recruiting a lot of star players, the facts don't make them a scary team, in fact they tend to decrease in terms of performance, I hope they can realize that.

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April 27, 2023, 07:19:27 AM
 #13003

PSG has been performing well with out the messi you are talking about and even Barcelona is currently doing well without messi and I still believe that PSG is still going to perform well without him if he eventually decides to leave the club, messi playing days are limited and its even best for the club to look for younger reliable player with lots of playing days.
Indeed before they looked like that, but it seems that has changed. Messi became a key player alongside Neymar and Mbaape. When one of them is not playing then they will look very different. Their game doesn't seem good. But of course Messi's departure will not be a problem, maybe they will make a lot of profit. In addition, Messi's age is not young anymore. Messi won't last long, maybe a year or two. But if I was Xavi I wouldn't take him, if the desired salary was too big. 
It's funny, when there are people who only complain about problems that only happen to one player, meanwhile in a team there are many players who certainly can't just blame only one player. Also, I wonder because he said about, Barcelona is currently doing fine without Messi. Hey, do you remember how devastated Barcelona was after Messi left and before Xavi became Barcelona coach? lol!
After all, every player will have a time to end, but that doesn't mean Messi is the cause of PSG's failure in the Champions League. Because, if Messi causes PSG to be destroyed, then PSG will not be at the top of the Ligue 1 standings. Therefore, Messi is not a player who can be completely blamed, but if they only blame Messi then to be honest, they are more pro towards Ronaldo and hate Messi. Cheesy

Blaming Lionel Messi has just become a fail safe option for PSG supporters. They are not being able to win anything in the Champions League or even win anything important anywhere in my opinion. That's why they are finding the easy way out of everything. Which is blaming certain player/players and not recognizing the actual problems of the team.

I can say for sure that if they give this same PSG team the authority of Real Madrid they are going to win almost anything and everything in the next season. Just because the authority doesn't know how to use the power that they have doesn't mean the players are reliable for every loss


That's really simple, the team is not in a good situation and they can't get the result they want also they don't know the reason for these results they get and since they have no idea about it, the fans are looking for someone to blame, they just blame Messi because they don't know the reason for the poor performance they have while in fact, Messi's performance was not bad to blame him for the results they got.


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April 27, 2023, 07:33:02 AM
 #13004

PSG has been performing well with out the messi you are talking about and even Barcelona is currently doing well without messi and I still believe that PSG is still going to perform well without him if he eventually decides to leave the club, messi playing days are limited and its even best for the club to look for younger reliable player with lots of playing days.
Indeed before they looked like that, but it seems that has changed. Messi became a key player alongside Neymar and Mbaape. When one of them is not playing then they will look very different. Their game doesn't seem good. But of course Messi's departure will not be a problem, maybe they will make a lot of profit. In addition, Messi's age is not young anymore. Messi won't last long, maybe a year or two. But if I was Xavi I wouldn't take him, if the desired salary was too big. 
It's funny, when there are people who only complain about problems that only happen to one player, meanwhile in a team there are many players who certainly can't just blame only one player. Also, I wonder because he said about, Barcelona is currently doing fine without Messi. Hey, do you remember how devastated Barcelona was after Messi left and before Xavi became Barcelona coach? lol!
After all, every player will have a time to end, but that doesn't mean Messi is the cause of PSG's failure in the Champions League. Because, if Messi causes PSG to be destroyed, then PSG will not be at the top of the Ligue 1 standings. Therefore, Messi is not a player who can be completely blamed, but if they only blame Messi then to be honest, they are more pro towards Ronaldo and hate Messi. Cheesy

Blaming Lionel Messi has just become a fail safe option for PSG supporters. They are not being able to win anything in the Champions League or even win anything important anywhere in my opinion. That's why they are finding the easy way out of everything. Which is blaming certain player/players and not recognizing the actual problems of the team.

I can say for sure that if they give this same PSG team the authority of Real Madrid they are going to win almost anything and everything in the next season. Just because the authority doesn't know how to use the power that they have doesn't mean the players are reliable for every loss


That's really simple, the team is not in a good situation and they can't get the result they want also they don't know the reason for these results they get and since they have no idea about it, the fans are looking for someone to blame, they just blame Messi because they don't know the reason for the poor performance they have while in fact, Messi's performance was not bad to blame him for the results they got.


There is no point in thinking anything else about PSG in League One. Because the PSG team was and will be the best in Ligue 1. Because the other teams in Ligue 1 are not highly qualified to beat PSG and clinch the title.

.
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April 27, 2023, 07:37:35 AM
 #13005

Of course, with these various considerations, Lyon must be wary of Strasbourg and Lyon might fail to steal points away from home later. But I'm pretty sure that Lyon will win even by a narrow score, Lyon have to win if they want to have the same number of points as Rennes.

So, do you think Lyon will have an easy win in their game against Strasbourg this week? I don't think so, here are the reasons:

1. In their last 2 meetings, Lyon didn't win (3 points), they only managed to get 1 point from a draw from those 2 matches. Even in the first meeting of the league, when Lyon played at home, they lost to Strasbourg with a score of Lyon 1 - 2 Strasbourg. The upcoming match is an away match for them, at this point do you still think they will win?

2. Regarding the betting market, Lyon is indeed more favored here, but did you know that if you choose Lyon you will get big odds (more than 2)? Usually when a team is almost certain to win a match, that team will get very small odds. On Rollbit itself, if you choose 2 for the 1X2 bet now, you will get @2.42, big odds right?

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R


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April 27, 2023, 07:40:24 AM
 #13006

After suffering defeat last week against Marseille, Lyon will now play an away game at home to Strasbourg this week. In depth the squads of the two teams are clearly different, Lyon is superior but Strasbourg can sometimes make it difficult with the current quality of its players. It is surprising that last week Strasbourg managed to beat Reims, we know that Reims was so strong when they hosted their opponents at home.

Of course, with these various considerations, Lyon must be wary of Strasbourg and Lyon might fail to steal points away from home later. But I'm pretty sure that Lyon will win even by a narrow score, Lyon have to win if they want to have the same number of points as Rennes.
Strasbourg is not better than Lyon in terms of strength, this is their chance to win again after their defeat last week. On the other hand, Strasbourg is also on a positive trend with the consecutive wins they got in their last 2 matches. Another advantage that Strasbourg gets is that they will play a home game in this match. Even though on paper Lyon are still better, that doesn't mean they will be able to win the game comfortably.
They got a morale boost after the 2 consecutive victories created when defeating Ajaccio and Reims and of course the home competition will be something more for Strasbourg at the moment.
In terms of strength, Lyon is still superior, but it is not impossible for Strasbourg at the moment, especially if their goal is a draw, it will be very good for them.
But in this case Lyon is also still very good apart from the defeat to Marseille last week they are also still quite good in the last few matches they have run.
The advantage of being a home club for Strasbourg is indeed possible but on the other hand, we also have to look at other conditions, especially in terms of the mental quality of the players.

At the moment Lyon is still the favorite in this match but on the other hand it is still a little complicated if you are betting because the conditions are still unpredictable especially with Lyon's defense which cannot be said to be good because it always concedes goals in every game it plays.

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Oneandpure
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April 27, 2023, 08:12:26 AM
 #13007

Taking league 1 as the trophy that PSG can win is more than enough this time. I don't expect more than it. PSG was even feeling so difficult to win any matches. If it's not messi who always been helping the club to win any matches.
PSG will be losing messi next season. This gonna another disaster for PSG caused by we do know how big the contribution that already made by messi to the PSG. as a player with the highest rating in the club. Messi's role is very important for PSG but that's sad messi decides to leave from PSG and move back to the barcelona again. Messi and neymar will find its new club again soon.
Lionel Messi have more contribution this season and helped PSG win on several crucial games but he can't give PSG fans more expected like winning Champion League. For winning Ligue 1 seems is not matter has Lionel Messi or not I think PSG always dominance with domestic league but fans expected with Lionel Messi can get better achievement in Champion League. If PSG can't extended for Lionel Messi contract I don't sure will bigger loss because still have Neymar and Mbappe.

But PSG have few weeks for discussing back with Lionel Messi contract and accepted his offering salary, but depend on PSG or Lionel Messi its self will accept with new offering from PSG or returning back to Barcelona next season.

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April 27, 2023, 01:13:00 PM
 #13008

After suffering defeat last week against Marseille, Lyon will now play an away game at home to Strasbourg this week. In depth the squads of the two teams are clearly different, Lyon is superior but Strasbourg can sometimes make it difficult with the current quality of its players. It is surprising that last week Strasbourg managed to beat Reims, we know that Reims was so strong when they hosted their opponents at home.
It will be an easy match for lyon.




Bookies were favoring strasbourg. I think that it can be a trap. LYON might lose against strasbourg but remember that if lyon has consistent performance before. Strasbourg was getting two wins in a row. that makes bookies having faith in strasbourg but i will still try to pick lyon.

The different in the current standing has been proving how big the gap between LYON compared with strasbourg at this moment.
it's very hard for me to pick strasbourg as this team is also one of the inconsistent team in the league 1.

Stras may lose full points against LYON very soon.

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April 27, 2023, 01:26:28 PM
 #13009

After suffering defeat last week against Marseille, Lyon will now play an away game at home to Strasbourg this week. In depth the squads of the two teams are clearly different, Lyon is superior but Strasbourg can sometimes make it difficult with the current quality of its players. It is surprising that last week Strasbourg managed to beat Reims, we know that Reims was so strong when they hosted their opponents at home.
It will be an easy match for lyon.




Bookies were favoring strasbourg. I think that it can be a trap. LYON might lose against strasbourg but remember that if lyon has consistent performance before. Strasbourg was getting two wins in a row. that makes bookies having faith in strasbourg but i will still try to pick lyon.

The different in the current standing has been proving how big the gap between LYON compared with strasbourg at this moment.
it's very hard for me to pick strasbourg as this team is also one of the inconsistent team in the league 1.

Stras may lose full points against LYON very soon.
I am really impressed by the performance of the Lions team in League One. The team players are very responsible and care very much about how to take the team forward. As a result, they are performing exceptionally well in most of the matches and ensuring victory. If they perform well in League One like this, I think the team will become the best team in League One in a few seasons.

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April 27, 2023, 01:58:16 PM
 #13010

However in case of seeing these two very important players leave the team even the right manager would have to deal with some serious problems about achieving their biggest goals. I wonder who would make a new trio with Mbappe in the attacking line.
What problem? PSG had a bunch of money. Searching new players to replace messi and neymar will not become hard tasks to be done. PSG has been tageting several players include osimhen from napoli. It's likely that if PSG will be also increasing its offer to the napoli for osimhen.
The problem is, if PSG is not having a good coach right now to handle the team. that was also making the club has limitation to improve its performance compared with this season. PSG needs to use its money wisely.


It depends on whether they use their transfer budget in the right way not to cause any problem in the attacking line. By saying "problem" I wanted to mean that actually. Because it might not be very easy to build a new trio that can have a great communication style with each other. Messi, Mbappe and Neymar have been getting along really nicely so far.

Even in the times there were some personal issues between Mbappe and Neymar for example, they weren't still reflecting this onto their games. In those times I remember watching Mbappe and Neymar making assists to each other which was a great example for other players.

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April 27, 2023, 02:43:00 PM
 #13011

There is no point in thinking anything else about PSG in League One. Because the PSG team was and will be the best in Ligue 1. Because the other teams in Ligue 1 are not highly qualified to beat PSG and clinch the title.
PSG is having big gap to the second position in league 1. No chance for the club like lille or lens to take over the position that owned by PSG right now. Some players were contributing a lot to the PSG until it was able reaching this position again.
Technically, PSG already won the title right now. I think that PSG needs to rebuild its club again for the next season. PSG will be losing some important players. It's the time for PSG to use its money to buy another star after neymar and messi will be leaving soon.

PSG has bad performance this season except in the domestic league caused by it was winning a trophy.

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April 27, 2023, 03:30:31 PM
 #13012

Blaming Lionel Messi has just become a fail safe option for PSG supporters. They are not being able to win anything in the Champions League or even win anything important anywhere in my opinion. That's why they are finding the easy way out of everything. Which is blaming certain player/players and not recognizing the actual problems of the team.

I can say for sure that if they give this same PSG team the authority of Real Madrid they are going to win almost anything and everything in the next season. Just because the authority doesn't know how to use the power that they have doesn't mean the players are reliable for every loss
That's really simple, the team is not in a good situation and they can't get the result they want also they don't know the reason for these results they get and since they have no idea about it, the fans are looking for someone to blame, they just blame Messi because they don't know the reason for the poor performance they have while in fact, Messi's performance was not bad to blame him for the results they got.
Fans are on the wrong target to find players to make scapegoats for PSG failure in the UCL, judging by his performance this season with PSG in Ligue 1, Messi has made a good contribution to the team. 15 goals and 15 assists are good achievements for a player, he has contributed to the 30 goals that PSG have earned this season.

Igniting Messi individually should not be done by PSG fans, because the PSG squad is not just Messi. Fans demands on Messi are very unrealistic, he is not a superhero who can do something alone. I think the coach is the first to be blamed for not being able to take advantage of a team filled with star players.

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April 27, 2023, 03:41:55 PM
 #13013

There is no point in thinking anything else about PSG in League One. Because the PSG team was and will be the best in Ligue 1. Because the other teams in Ligue 1 are not highly qualified to beat PSG and clinch the title.
PSG is having big gap to the second position in league 1. No chance for the club like lille or lens to take over the position that owned by PSG right now. Some players were contributing a lot to the PSG until it was able reaching this position again.
Technically, PSG already won the title right now. I think that PSG needs to rebuild its club again for the next season. PSG will be losing some important players. It's the time for PSG to use its money to buy another star after neymar and messi will be leaving soon.

PSG has bad performance this season except in the domestic league caused by it was winning a trophy.


Whether it's true or not Neymar and Messi will definitely leave at the end of this season, because I think if Neymar and Messi leave then it's very likely that Mbappe will also leave. A team like Real Madrid can of course still pay Mbappe handsomely but yes, apart from that basically Mbappe does not have the desire to play at PSG forever.

Also, if next season PSG recruits a new coach then of course, a major overhaul will be carried out because this season even though PSG won the Ligue 1 title, but the reality is that PSG is still very bad. Because PSG not only failed in the Champions League, but PSG also failed in the Coupe de France which proves that PSG are still very bad at this moment.

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April 27, 2023, 03:42:11 PM
 #13014

Blaming Lionel Messi has just become a fail safe option for PSG supporters. They are not being able to win anything in the Champions League or even win anything important anywhere in my opinion. That's why they are finding the easy way out of everything. Which is blaming certain player/players and not recognizing the actual problems of the team.

I can say for sure that if they give this same PSG team the authority of Real Madrid they are going to win almost anything and everything in the next season. Just because the authority doesn't know how to use the power that they have doesn't mean the players are reliable for every loss
That's really simple, the team is not in a good situation and they can't get the result they want also they don't know the reason for these results they get and since they have no idea about it, the fans are looking for someone to blame, they just blame Messi because they don't know the reason for the poor performance they have while in fact, Messi's performance was not bad to blame him for the results they got.
Fans are on the wrong target to find players to make scapegoats for PSG failure in the UCL, judging by his performance this season with PSG in Ligue 1, Messi has made a good contribution to the team. 15 goals and 15 assists are good achievements for a player, he has contributed to the 30 goals that PSG have earned this season.

Igniting Messi individually should not be done by PSG fans, because the PSG squad is not just Messi. Fans demands on Messi are very unrealistic, he is not a superhero who can do something alone. I think the coach is the first to be blamed for not being able to take advantage of a team filled with star players.
Lionel Messi did not have much of a career after joining the PSG team. I think if Lionel Messi had joined another club instead of joining PSG, he would have had many more achievements in his career by now. I think Lionel Messi needs to make some new decisions in this season's transfer.

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April 27, 2023, 04:19:28 PM
 #13015

Of course, with these various considerations, Lyon must be wary of Strasbourg and Lyon might fail to steal points away from home later. But I'm pretty sure that Lyon will win even by a narrow score, Lyon have to win if they want to have the same number of points as Rennes.

So, do you think Lyon will have an easy win in their game against Strasbourg this week? I don't think so, here are the reasons:

1. In their last 2 meetings, Lyon didn't win (3 points), they only managed to get 1 point from a draw from those 2 matches. Even in the first meeting of the league, when Lyon played at home, they lost to Strasbourg with a score of Lyon 1 - 2 Strasbourg. The upcoming match is an away match for them, at this point do you still think they will win?

2. Regarding the betting market, Lyon is indeed more favored here, but did you know that if you choose Lyon you will get big odds (more than 2)? Usually when a team is almost certain to win a match, that team will get very small odds. On Rollbit itself, if you choose 2 for the 1X2 bet now, you will get @2.42, big odds right?

Image Source: Rollbit
You are right in the past record, but Lyon did not manage to draw against Strasbourg, they were unlucky that they didn't win.  Lyon played better than Strasbourg.  Past records are good but sometimes things do change.  Betting on Strasbourg to win because of the aforementioned reason is also a bet on the wrong horse. It is Very risky if one is to just also from the position in the stand,  and Lyon is currently on a good form than them. One cannot confidently bet on any side to win this match.

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Alanaz
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April 27, 2023, 04:50:07 PM
 #13016

There is no point in thinking anything else about PSG in League One. Because the PSG team was and will be the best in Ligue 1. Because the other teams in Ligue 1 are not highly qualified to beat PSG and clinch the title.
PSG is having big gap to the second position in league 1. No chance for the club like lille or lens to take over the position that owned by PSG right now. Some players were contributing a lot to the PSG until it was able reaching this position again.
Technically, PSG already won the title right now. I think that PSG needs to rebuild its club again for the next season. PSG will be losing some important players. It's the time for PSG to use its money to buy another star after neymar and messi will be leaving soon.

PSG has bad performance this season except in the domestic league caused by it was winning a trophy.

I hope they make the most of what they have at the moment and they make a well-considered transfer not just a star player. The reason is if we look, the star players they have do not make them able to do their best in bigger competitions. I won't talk about them in Ligue 1, but I want to see them in the Champions League talk more and get maximum results.

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April 27, 2023, 04:56:11 PM
 #13017

After suffering defeat last week against Marseille, Lyon will now play an away game at home to Strasbourg this week. In depth the squads of the two teams are clearly different, Lyon is superior but Strasbourg can sometimes make it difficult with the current quality of its players. It is surprising that last week Strasbourg managed to beat Reims, we know that Reims was so strong when they hosted their opponents at home.
It will be an easy match for lyon.




Bookies were favoring strasbourg. I think that it can be a trap. LYON might lose against strasbourg but remember that if lyon has consistent performance before. Strasbourg was getting two wins in a row. that makes bookies having faith in strasbourg but i will still try to pick lyon.

The different in the current standing has been proving how big the gap between LYON compared with strasbourg at this moment.
it's very hard for me to pick strasbourg as this team is also one of the inconsistent team in the league 1.

Stras may lose full points against LYON very soon.
The difference in the odds that are not too big makes the bettors feel a little doubtful, but in my opinion this match is quite clear who will win it and I would prefer to bet on Lyon. But it looks like this match will end in a narrow victory for Lyon and if there is any other result it is likely that the match will end in a draw with both teams scoring goals. I will choose the handicap bet option (-0.25) with odds @2.06 for Lyon to win but this bet is also meant to be a precaution even if Lyon doesn't win and ends in a draw then I won't completely lose.

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kro55
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April 27, 2023, 06:46:55 PM
 #13018

I don't see any chance for this team to improve unless PSG changes their coach and finds an experienced coach. PSG management has a lot of money. They are also willing to spend a lot of money on buying players. But if there is no experienced coach, the performance of the team will not be good. And we've had proof of that in the last few seasons. PSG must now convince Zidane by any means necessary. If Zidane becomes the coach of PSG then I believe the overall situation of PSG will change. You don't need a lot of star players to win the Champions League title. What is needed is a stable squad and a good match strategy.
I think you are thinking it in a wrong way. A good coach is important and is like half of a club power but he can not do everything. The rest half belongs to players who actually play on field, play against opponents and they are who convert tactics and preparation of their coach to real show in a match.
About their players, to make a strong squad, they must have good balance between attacking and defense. You can easily see that they have never had that balance in their squad even they spent a lot of money for player transfers, player salary after many years. Their defense is weak compare the total budget they spent and to other big clubs. With that weak defense, including contributions for defense from their attacking players and midfielders, they are always fragile in Champions League as other big clubs can easily to exploit their defense weakness and beat PSG.
Zidane won't be able to fix it by himself and PSG must change their strategy to build their squad first.

You are right. It is not the case that a team will perform well only with the help of a coach. The squad players must play well. A good performance is not possible if the players do not play well.
However, PSG's poor performance this season is due to their poor match strategy. I noticed closely that PSG's match strategy was not good. The performance of the players in most of the matches seemed to me to be completely aimless. At the same time, their coach has changed PSG's formation many times. Its adverse effects have been seen in the team's performance. All this happened because of the inexperience of the PSG coach. I think if PSG had an experienced coach, their performance would have improved. Because they have this ability.

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April 27, 2023, 07:07:03 PM
 #13019

There is no point in thinking anything else about PSG in League One. Because the PSG team was and will be the best in Ligue 1. Because the other teams in Ligue 1 are not highly qualified to beat PSG and clinch the title.

Yes French Ligue 1 lost fans towards the end of the season
Competition is no longer attractive after see the situation of the top positions in the League, Marseille is not ready to face competition with PSG, and Paris Saint Germain again dominated the League.
Other teams have almost no chance of filling the top posisition in the League
Whereas before I hoped the season in the French 1st League will end with tussle between 1st and 2nd positions, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

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April 27, 2023, 07:31:52 PM
 #13020

~snip~
It will be an easy match for lyon.




Bookies were favoring strasbourg. I think that it can be a trap. LYON might lose against strasbourg but remember that if lyon has consistent performance before. Strasbourg was getting two wins in a row. that makes bookies having faith in strasbourg but i will still try to pick lyon.

The different in the current standing has been proving how big the gap between LYON compared with strasbourg at this moment.
it's very hard for me to pick strasbourg as this team is also one of the inconsistent team in the league 1.

Stras may lose full points against LYON very soon.

Is this not a bit strange, if we refer to the available odds. Moreover, if we refer to statistics and standings, these two teams have a gap. the only advantage Strasbourg has, is playing as the home team. plus, won the match in the first meeting of the season. I'm trying to find up-to-date information for these two teams, but I don't have much information at the moment. it's just that, in this match one of Strasbourg's defenders had to be absent due to injury, namely, Gerzino Nyamsi.

For Lyon, it is certain that no one will be absent due to injury.  so, why are the available odds quite balanced. Maybe this match will end in a draw. yeah, just my guess. if I refer to Lyon's last 5 matches, the only defeat they experienced was the home game against Marseille. Meanwhile, in 5 Strasbourg matches, they got 3 wins, 2 defeats. frankly, for now I can't analyze or predict the two teams that will compete. however if I had to choose I would bet on over 2.5 goals. it seems, quite ideal than choosing either of these two teams.

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