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[Wind_FURY]

Are these newbie shills paid by zkSNACKs or is zkSNACKs behind those accounts? This entire thread is becoming a mess.

I believe not, that would be too obvious. If someone is playing 4D Chess, it would probably an entity that's against zkSNACKs paying those shills and have the posters of the topic blame it on zkSNACKs?

🤔

It's an advantage to have access to all of the open source code for Wasabi wallet but we don't know what's happening to data inside zkSNACKs servers so independent audits would've reassured Wasabi Wallet users.

I can only speak for the protocol that Wasabi wallet uses but based on that, there is not much personal information that the coordinator could leak. So although I do not approve what zkSNACKs is doing, if the protocol works as explained in docs, they cannot compromise the users' privacy apart from sharing UTXO that participates in coinjoin. An audit would be useful to know if the protocol works exactly as explained.

Plus an audit to the blockchain analysis companies that filter the UTXOs. The users should be given the right to refute the "true positives" flagged by them. Because if it can't be refuted, then it's not credible. How would the users know that they're not pulling data arbitrarily.

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[NotATether]

Ultimately it's just interactive coinjoin versus non-interactive coinjoin, so what is the big deal about taking about its use by criminals. As far as I know, there's nothing stopping them from using Wasabi Wallet for anonymity purposes - as blacklisting is not implemented yet (and even if it was implemented, the blacklist will catch some but it cannot prevent a tumbling of coins derived from a hack if it is not reported quickly enough) - just as they are using non-interactive mixers for this purpose currently.

All coinjoins are interactive, I'm not sure what you mean.

Mixers cannot bring all its users online to coordinate the creation of their transactions so their coinjoins are non-interactive as all transactions are made by the mixer with no contribution from the user. That I know.

I assumed that the Wasabi wallet application checks in with the coordinator to see which other users are online so that the wallet can prompt them for the password or similar that will allow the transactions to be created for interactive coinjoin. Hence, Wasabi Wallet is using interactive coinjoin.

[Kruw]

Mixers cannot bring all its users online to coordinate the creation of their transactions so their coinjoins are non-interactive as all transactions are made by the mixer with no contribution from the user. That I know.

Mixers are scams that are imposters of coinjoin services. They do not provide any privacy, they simply allow the operator to steal your coins.

[Pmalek]

How would a community-ran coordinator display negative motives?

They don't want to piss off their blockchain analysis partners by suggesting to their users not to use the default coordinator that accepts the blockchain analysis company's take on what should be allowed and disallowed in a coinjoin. Plus, their partners want a piece of the cake, which wouldn't happen if people migrated to other coordinators. 

[Medusah]

Mixers are scams that are imposters of coinjoin services.

Mixers are the alternative to your service with the difference that you need to to trust someone your bitcoin and their word.  And of course, with the exception that they do not fund blockchain analysis.

[Kruw]

Mixers are the alternative to your service with the difference that you need to to trust someone your bitcoin and their word.

The reason mixers are imposters as opposed to alternatives is that you can deposit and withdraw from web services like an exchange or casino to gain the same (arguably, more) confidentiality a mixer provides, without the fees imposed.

[Pmalek]

The reason mixers are imposters as opposed to alternatives is that you can deposit and withdraw from web services like an exchange or casino to gain the same (arguably, more) confidentiality a mixer provides, without the fees imposed.

That's true for online casinos unless you have to undergo KYC before they allow you to withdraw the money, which happens very often. Another thing you should remember is that casinos don't allow people to use their services as mixers. They have wagering requirements, asking that players roll over their deposits x number of times. For sports betting, a good site will apply only 1x. For casino games, it can be 1-3x, maybe more. But if it's your casino or you are close to the people operating it, it's a good way to exchange coin histories.

If we are talking about centralized exchanges, you don't get any privacy there. Almost every service nowadays requires KYC plus they will enlist the service of a blockchain analysis company to find out even more about you.   

[Kruw]

Zoom out to see Wasabi's coinjoin of the week!  This behemoth transaction contains 23 BTC - https://mempool.space/tx/927a4d5f3e17faae611f623eaf06206b966b30ba1bacbec49d7ab35afa50dbca

Bitcoin is divisible. WabiSabi coinjoins make Bitcoin divisible privately.

Inputs: 370
Outputs: 340
Average input anonset: 4.2
Average output anonset: 10.63

[arabspaceship123]

You're saying they're imposters but I wouldn't say mixers are scams or say they're imposters of coinjoin services. They're providing a service which isn't coinjoin it's different obfuscating in different ways. Coinjoin's the best way to mix but it doesn't mean mixers aren't offering a service.

Mixers are scams that are imposters of coinjoin services. They do not provide any privacy, they simply allow the operator to steal your coins.

[Kruw]

You're saying they're imposters but I wouldn't say mixers are scams or say they're imposters of coinjoin services. They're providing a service which isn't coinjoin it's different obfuscating in different ways. Coinjoin's the best way to mix but it doesn't mean mixers aren't offering a service.

Mixers are scams that are imposters of coinjoin services. They do not provide any privacy, they simply allow the operator to steal your coins.

The mixing service you advertise literally takes user deposits and registers them for zkSNACKs' WabiSabi coinjoins:

/en/why-unijoin]UniJoin is a simple and effective solution for making your cryptocurrency funds like Bitcoin anonymous. Our crypto mixing service breaks the connection between your identity and your wallet address using CoinJoin. This is an important step to keep your anonymity intact while making transactions.

The key differences are they charge a 3x-10x+ premium on the fees zkSNACKs charges and, most importantly, they don't actually provide any privacy because they have full knowledge of all incoming and outgoing transactions they coinjoin for their users.  If users simply coinjoined their funds directly instead of trusting Unijoin who coinjoins their funds anyway, they would actually gain privacy and also save fees.

[arabspaceship123]

You're saying they're imposters but I wouldn't say mixers are scams or say they're imposters of coinjoin services. They're providing a service which isn't coinjoin it's different obfuscating in different ways. Coinjoin's the best way to mix but it doesn't mean mixers aren't offering a service.

The mixing service you advertise literally takes user deposits and registers them for zkSNACKs' WabiSabi coinjoins:

I've read your post but didn't see the section where they're saying they're using zkSNACKs for coinjoins so has it been confirmed?

/en/why-unijoin]UniJoin is a simple and effective solution for making your cryptocurrency funds like Bitcoin anonymous. Our crypto mixing service breaks the connection between your identity and your wallet address using CoinJoin. This is an important step to keep your anonymity intact while making transactions.

The key differences are they charge a 3x-10x+ premium on the fees zkSNACK's charges and, most importantly, they don't actually provide any privacy because they have full knowledge of all incoming and outgoing transactions they coinjoin for their users.  If users simply coinjoined their funds directly instead of trusting Unijoin who coinjoins their funds anyway, they would actually gain privacy and also save fees.

I understand what you're saying about them providing the service off zkSNACKs back for premiums in fees & privacy being decreased but how do you know UniJoin's using zkSNACKs.

[Kruw]

I've read your post but didn't see the section where they're saying they're using zkSNACKs for coinjoins so has it been confirmed? I understand what you're saying about them providing the service off zkSNACKs back for premiums in fees & privacy being decreased but how do you know UniJoin's using zkSNACKs.

Multiple users have tested it, their deposits and withdrawals included coins from coinjoin rounds zkSNACKs coordinated.

[Medusah]

Do we know how much money the coordinator makes from a coinjoin?  Is it public data?

[Kruw]

Do we know how much money the coordinator makes from a coinjoin?  Is it public data?

Yes, you can just look at the blockchain to calculate it.

[NotATether]

@Kruw, I advise you to look at this topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5446635.msg63029331#msg63029331

The regulators are seeking to make all forms of cryptocurrency anonymization illegal (whether that be a mixer or a coinjoin or even whole coins like Monero).

[Kruw]

@Kruw, I advise you to look at this topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5446635.msg63029331#msg63029331

The regulators are seeking to make all forms of cryptocurrency anonymization illegal (whether that be a mixer or a coinjoin or even whole coins like Monero).

Regulators have a lot of bad ideas.

[Kruw]

Gaze and wonder at the coinjoin of the week! With 404 outputs, this massive transaction had 14.43 matches per value - https://mempool.space/tx/5a89d1592790d047e7cca0a7f4e4142eb9e96d678f325712756a0a19b167b853
There’s strength in numbers. Join the crowd.

[arabspaceship123]

It won't have one international voice so it's going to be structured by each country. After regulators finish we'll be in a standpoint where what's becoming illegal to anonymise inside America isn't going to illegal somewhere else. How's it going to be implemented if regulators don't communicate with each other.

@Kruw, I advise you to look at this topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5446635.msg63029331#msg63029331

The regulators are seeking to make all forms of cryptocurrency anonymization illegal (whether that be a mixer or a coinjoin or even whole coins like Monero).

[Wind_FURY]

Mixers cannot bring all its users online to coordinate the creation of their transactions so their coinjoins are non-interactive as all transactions are made by the mixer with no contribution from the user. That I know.

Mixers are scams that are imposters of coinjoin services. They do not provide any privacy, they simply allow the operator to steal your coins.

We know that CoinJoins done the right way are superior than traditional mixers, but can you please STOP that. There are newbies in the forum that read our posts. We're here to learn, debate, and find truth in many matters. We can't merely accept that kind of stupid viewpoint from a developer of one popular Bitcoin app.

Misinformation will not work. Write the pros and cons, or simply write the truth.

To the newbies/plebs. Mixers, the honest services, are incentivized by profit. If they do a good service, then more people will use them = more profit. Kruw is merely having a bad mood because of her period.

[Kruw]

We know that CoinJoins done the right way are superior than traditional mixers, but can you please STOP that. There are newbies in the forum that read our posts. We're here to learn, debate, and find truth in many matters. We can't merely accept that kind of stupid viewpoint from a developer of one popular Bitcoin app.

Misinformation will not work. Write the pros and cons, or simply write the truth.

To the newbies/plebs. Mixers, the honest services, are incentivized by profit. If they do a good service, then more people will use them = more profit. Kruw is merely having a bad mood because of her period.

That profit motive also incentivizes "mixing sites" to fractionally reserve user deposits to pay for shills and incentivizes them to sell your data for additional revenue.  Coinjoins are the only way to align incentives with your privacy.