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[Medusah]

What don't you understand wind fury?  Do not use mixers as that incentivizes them to sell their data and destroy their reputation.  Instead use Wasabi which provably funds the operation of chain analysis! 

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[Kruw]

What don't you understand wind fury?  Do not use mixers as that incentivizes them to sell their data and destroy their reputation.  Instead use Wasabi which provably funds the operation of chain analysis! 

If your arguments are reduced to sarcasm, then I've made my point effectively.

[Wind_FURY]

We know that CoinJoins done the right way are superior than traditional mixers, but can you please STOP that. There are newbies in the forum that read our posts. We're here to learn, debate, and find truth in many matters. We can't merely accept that kind of stupid viewpoint from a developer of one popular Bitcoin app.

Misinformation will not work. Write the pros and cons, or simply write the truth.

To the newbies/plebs. Mixers, the honest services, are incentivized by profit. If they do a good service, then more people will use them = more profit. Kruw is merely having a bad mood because of her period.

That profit motive also incentivizes "mixing sites" to fractionally reserve user deposits to pay for shills and incentivizes them to sell your data for additional revenue.  Coinjoins are the only way to align incentives with your privacy.

Ser, you're not trying to understand the point being made, nor are you getting the context. Centralized mixers/services are incentivized to be HONEST because if they're not, then users will go and use the next tumbler = profit down. Plus it's developing to be a very competitive business like VPNs, and it will be a competition on who has the lowest fees, who has the best UI/UX, and who simply does the mixing/tumbling most effectively.

[Kruw]

Ser, you're not trying to understand the point being made, nor are you getting the context. Centralized mixers/services are incentivized to be HONEST because if they're not, then users will go and use the next tumbler = profit down. Plus it's developing to be a very competitive business like VPNs, and it will be a competition on who has the lowest fees, who has the best UI/UX, and who simply does the mixing/tumbling most effectively.

No, I understood your point and your context, I simply disproved it with economics:  Mixing sites are incentivized to be dishonest since they can profit from selling your data even after they cease operations. Furthermore, there's no way for customers to verify that their data hasn't been sold, so a dishonest mixing site that sells data will be able to undercut the fees of an "honest" mixing site that does not sell data without this underhanded practice being detected.

[Wind_FURY]

Ser, you're not trying to understand the point being made, nor are you getting the context. Centralized mixers/services are incentivized to be HONEST because if they're not, then users will go and use the next tumbler = profit down. Plus it's developing to be a very competitive business like VPNs, and it will be a competition on who has the lowest fees, who has the best UI/UX, and who simply does the mixing/tumbling most effectively.

No, I understood your point and your context, I simply disproved it with economics:  Mixing sites are incentivized to be dishonest since they can profit from selling your data even after they cease operations. Furthermore, there's no way for customers to verify that their data hasn't been sold, so a dishonest mixing site that sells data will be able to undercut the fees of an "honest" mixing site that does not sell data without this underhanded practice being detected.

Every service, not just mixers, definitely are incentized to do that. That's why when people using mixers, use them behind TOR and/or VPNs, and layer your OPSEC by using other mixers/tumblers in combination with the Lightning Network and CoinJoin like Wasabi. Plus with Wasabi as the final destination of "the layer", because any UTXO that passes through your coordinator is considered "safe" by government-licensed blockchain analysis companies.

[Kruw]

Every service, not just mixers, definitely are incentivized to do that. That's why when people using mixers, use them behind TOR and/or VPNs, and layer your OPSEC by using other mixers/tumblers in combination with the Lightning Network and CoinJoin like Wasabi. Plus with Wasabi as the final destination of "the layer", because any UTXO that passes through your coordinator is considered "safe" by government-licensed blockchain analysis companies.

Using Tor or a VPN doesn't protect you against a mixing site, they have full visibility over which withdrawal was claimed from which deposit.

[Wind_FURY]

Every service, not just mixers, definitely are incentivized to do that. That's why when people using mixers, use them behind TOR and/or VPNs, and layer your OPSEC by using other mixers/tumblers in combination with the Lightning Network and CoinJoin like Wasabi. Plus with Wasabi as the final destination of "the layer", because any UTXO that passes through your coordinator is considered "safe" by government-licensed blockchain analysis companies.

Using Tor or a VPN doesn't protect you against a mixing site, they have full visibility over which withdrawal was claimed from which deposit.

Then that's why, layer your mixing/tumbling with other centralized mixers, then the Lightning Network, then back to onchain, then make attempts to mix them further in Wasabi's CoinJoin/centralized coordinator in order to get that "clean, safe, government-approved" UTXOs that are free from "taint".

[Kruw]

Then that's why, layer your mixing/tumbling with other centralized mixers, then the Lightning Network, then back to onchain, then make attempts to mix them further in Wasabi's CoinJoin/centralized coordinator in order to get that "clean, safe, government-approved" UTXOs that are free from "taint".

Why are you so determined to convince people into giving up custody of their coins when there's no reason for doing so? There's only risk added by using the "centralized mixers". Just coinjoin.

[Wind_FURY]

Then that's why, layer your mixing/tumbling with other centralized mixers, then the Lightning Network, then back to onchain, then make attempts to mix them further in Wasabi's CoinJoin/centralized coordinator in order to get that "clean, safe, government-approved" UTXOs that are free from "taint".

Why are you so determined to convince people into giving up custody of their coins when there's no reason for doing so? There's only risk added by using the "centralized mixers". Just coinjoin.

Get the context of what's being discussed ser. It's not about giving up custody, it's about layering different mixers/tumblers + the Lightning Network to gain more privacy, and using WasabiWallet's CoinJoin as the final destination if the user chooses, to gain government-approved, blockchain analyltics-audited UTXOs that are marked clean and free from "taint".

 

That's probably better to store in cold-storage, no?

Plus BIP-352 would probably complement layered mixing when it's merged and implemented into the network.

[Medusah]

government-approved, blockchain analyltics-audited UTXOs that are marked clean and free from "taint".

I bet $1000 that you will have any coinjoined bitcoin rejected from at least one centralized exchange, Wasabi or not.

[Kruw]

Get the context of what's being discussed ser. It's not about giving up custody

I am following the context of what's being discussed. You are desperate to take advantage of newbies by convincing them that they should use "mixing sites", which are honeypots of data that can steal your coins:

To the newbies/plebs. Mixers, the honest services, are incentivized by profit. If they do a good service, then more people will use them = more profit. Kruw is merely having a bad mood because of her period.

I am here (along with Theymos) to warn users NOT to use these centralized "mixers":

For everyone looking to improve their privacy, I highly recommend checking out Wasabi, especially over centralized "mixers".

You can insult Theymos and I by saying we are on our periods, but we are protecting newbs from having their coins stolen or tracked. In the spirit of the 15th anniversary, you should also read the Bitcoin whitepaper and see what Satoshi Nakamoto had to say about trusted third parties:

A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution. Digital signatures provide part of the solution, but the main benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required to prevent double-spending.

[Wind_FURY]

government-approved, blockchain analyltics-audited UTXOs that are marked clean and free from "taint".

I bet $1000 that you will have any coinjoined bitcoin rejected from at least one centralized exchange, Wasabi or not.

Ask Kruw if he's confident enough that he can assure that that will not happen to Wasabi users.

Get the context of what's being discussed ser. It's not about giving up custody

I am following the context of what's being discussed. You are desperate to take advantage of newbies by convincing them that they should use "mixing sites", which are honeypots of data that can steal your coins:

I'm merely taking about layering the process of mixing ser. What about, send your UTXO's through Lightning, mix/tumble through a mixer, send again through Lightning, then on-chain, then send to Wasabi's coordinator? I believe that could be successful in not getting false positives, no?

In Lightning -> Mixer -> Lightning, what data could a mixer possibly get assuming that the user is using the service behind TOR + VPN?

To the newbies/plebs. Mixers, the honest services, are incentivized by profit. If they do a good service, then more people will use them = more profit. Kruw is merely having a bad mood because of her period.

I am here (along with Theymos) to warn users NOT to use these centralized "mixers":

For everyone looking to improve their privacy, I highly recommend checking out Wasabi, especially over centralized "mixers".

You can insult Theymos and I by saying we are on our periods, but we are protecting newbs from having their coins stolen or tracked. In the spirit of the 15th anniversary, you should also read the Bitcoin whitepaper and see what Satoshi Nakamoto had to say about trusted third parties:

A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution. Digital signatures provide part of the solution, but the main benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required to prevent double-spending.

Insult? Pardon me, that was meant to be funny, not offense. But about trusted third parties, isn't zkSNACKS' coordinator a trusted third party?

[Kruw]

I'm merely taking about layering the process of mixing ser.

You are not talking about "layering the process of mixing", you are accusing me of misinformation by warning people about the profit incentives for mixer sites stealing your Bitcoins and selling your data:

We know that CoinJoins done the right way are superior than traditional mixers, but can you please STOP that. There are newbies in the forum that read our posts. We're here to learn, debate, and find truth in many matters. We can't merely accept that kind of stupid viewpoint from a developer of one popular Bitcoin app.

Misinformation will not work. Write the pros and cons, or simply write the truth.

To the newbies/plebs. Mixers, the honest services, are incentivized by profit. If they do a good service, then more people will use them = more profit. Kruw is merely having a bad mood because of her period.

But about trusted third parties, isn't zkSNACKS' coordinator a trusted third party?

No, coinjoin coordinators are not trusted with any user funds or user data. Coordinators only provide a messaging service.

[Pmalek]

Then that's why, layer your mixing/tumbling with other centralized mixers, then the Lightning Network, then back to onchain, then make attempts to mix them further in Wasabi's CoinJoin/centralized coordinator in order to get that "clean, safe, government-approved" UTXOs that are free from "taint".

Except the fact that you aren't getting that. There is no standard to measure and determine made up taint. Governments don't like the pursuit of privacy, so you can't use government-approved and taint-free UTXOs in the same sentence as mixing or coinjoining. Additionally, coins from mixers and coinjoins may trigger alarms on some services and not on others, proving again that they are making up their definitions of taint as they go. 

[Wind_FURY]

I'm merely taking about layering the process of mixing ser.

You are not talking about "layering the process of mixing", you are accusing me of misinformation by warning people about the profit incentives for mixer sites stealing your Bitcoins and selling your data:

We know that CoinJoins done the right way are superior than traditional mixers, but can you please STOP that. There are newbies in the forum that read our posts. We're here to learn, debate, and find truth in many matters. We can't merely accept that kind of stupid viewpoint from a developer of one popular Bitcoin app.

Misinformation will not work. Write the pros and cons, or simply write the truth.

To the newbies/plebs. Mixers, the honest services, are incentivized by profit. If they do a good service, then more people will use them = more profit. Kruw is merely having a bad mood because of her period.

Because it's debatable if centralized mixing services are actually incentivized to do it. If users find that out, then no one would use that service. How can you say that they are incentivized to do it? It can also be financially bad for them.

OK, for the sake of the discussion about layering the process of mixing, let's use JoinMarket instead of centralized mixers/tumblers.

But about trusted third parties, isn't zkSNACKS' coordinator a trusted third party?

No, coinjoin coordinators are not trusted with any user funds or user data. Coordinators only provide a messaging service.

OK, but will it work?

- If a Dark Market user sends his UTXOs to himself/herself through Lightning, then use JoinMarket, then send his UTXOs again to himself/herself through Lightning, THEN mix them through WasabiWallet.

Will blockchain analysis detect that it's a layered mix? I believe the connection to those original Dark Market UTXOs would be gone, no?

[Kruw]

Because it's debatable if centralized mixing services are actually incentivized to do it.

Mixing sites make money from selling your data.  No amount of debate will stop that incentive from existing.

If users find that out, then no one would use that service. How can you say that they are incentivized to do it? It can also be financially bad for them.

Users have no way to detect when a mixing site has sold their data.

OK, for the sake of the discussion about layering the process of mixing, let's use JoinMarket instead of centralized mixers/tumblers.

- If a Dark Market user sends his UTXOs to himself/herself through Lightning, then use JoinMarket, then send his UTXOs again to himself/herself through Lightning, THEN mix them through WasabiWallet.

Will blockchain analysis detect that it's a layered mix? I believe the connection to those original Dark Market UTXOs would be gone, no?

If a black market user sends his coins to himself with Lightning, then blockchain analysis won't even be able to determine that the coins moved at all (while the channel is open).

[Kruw]

Well, that escalated quickly! Transaction fees are up, but the coinjoin of the week demonstrates how Wasabi adapts to avoid costly dust. No 5000 sat and 6561 sat output denominations were chosen, concentrating value into spendable amounts - https://mempool.space/tx/d79435d0672e3b8dee91979e804e1273d8a69802371f772f64037e0ccbe43af5

[Wind_FURY]

Well, that escalated quickly! Transaction fees are up, but the coinjoin of the week demonstrates how Wasabi adapts to avoid costly dust. No 5000 sat and 6561 sat output denominations were chosen, concentrating value into spendable amounts - https://mempool.space/tx/d79435d0672e3b8dee91979e804e1273d8a69802371f772f64037e0ccbe43af5

It's happy mining again for the mining cartel.

But what would be the cause of the current comgestion/surge in transaction volume, if it's not Ordinals, or some new Bitcoin app built directly on top of Bitcoin on-chain?

I believe some posters would say that it's exchanges merely consolidating UTXOs, but network congestion has been happening for one full day. UTXO consolidation causes a mere spike in fees for probably just one hour.

[FinneysTrueVision]

Well, that escalated quickly! Transaction fees are up, but the coinjoin of the week demonstrates how Wasabi adapts to avoid costly dust. No 5000 sat and 6561 sat output denominations were chosen, concentrating value into spendable amounts - https://mempool.space/tx/d79435d0672e3b8dee91979e804e1273d8a69802371f772f64037e0ccbe43af5

It's happy mining again for the mining cartel.

But what would be the cause of the current comgestion/surge in transaction volume, if it's not Ordinals, or some new Bitcoin app built directly on top of Bitcoin on-chain?

I believe some posters would say that it's exchanges merely consolidating UTXOs, but network congestion has been happening for one full day. UTXO consolidation causes a mere spike in fees for probably just one hour.

Ordinals inscriptions seem to be the cause of this congestion. Looking at recent Bitcoin blocks there are many transactions only spending a few cents using Taproot addresses.

This Ordinals explorer confirms that there are thousands of inscriptions per block. https://ordinals.com/

[arabspaceship123]

It's the question ppl can't answer because taint can't be boxed in one category. It's meaning isn't the same from one govt to another. Wouldn't it start a different trouble if taint free UTXO's were getting rejected for being naughty by zkSNACKs but a few govts declared them taint free.

They can't define taint so how's any one else going to understand it?

Then that's why, layer your mixing/tumbling with other centralized mixers, then the Lightning Network, then back to onchain, then make attempts to mix them further in Wasabi's CoinJoin/centralized coordinator in order to get that "clean, safe, government-approved" UTXOs that are free from "taint".

Except the fact that you aren't getting that. There is no standard to measure and determine made up taint. Governments don't like the pursuit of privacy, so you can't use government-approved and taint-free UTXOs in the same sentence as mixing or coinjoining. Additionally, coins from mixers and coinjoins may trigger alarms on some services and not on others, proving again that they are making up their definitions of taint as they go.