ㅤ

[BlackHatCoiner]

But I do not consider the presence of a coordinator something out of the ordinary "creepy"

What do you mean you don't consider it "something out of the ordinary 'creepy'"?

This is most likely a tribute to fashion, and such is the scheme for implementing security.

Which thing exactly is a tribute to fashion? Wasabi Wallet? The coordinator? And since when a "tribute to fashion" has anything to do with security?

As I understand it, you see this as a restriction of freedoms, I see it - protecting users from dubious transactions.

You see it in the wrong way, then. I was never asked to be protected. In fact, I've been using this currency for over 2 years, because I'm well aware that I'm completely responsible for my actions, and when I see privacy invasion, like that, I can only characterize it harmful. There's no freedom without privacy and the mileage arguments of pro-censorship have been debunked; their persuasiveness was never strong anyway.

It's like a seat belt in a car - it kind of interferes with your free movement, but it helps to save your life.

It doesn't save your life, it worsens it. What if I told you that you should publish your private messages, calls, to not use cash, to not use encryption (e.g., https), because terrorists use these stuff? What if I told you that you should post your identity, selfies, wife's conversations, political views, banking transactions (since you can't use cash), and all that stuff that describe your personal life as an alibi to prevent criminality? What do you have to hide anyway?

You don't need privacy, because you have something to hide. You need it, because you've nothing to show. Ignoring privacy invasion thinking it doesn't concern you personally is, besides a meat and drink for authoritarians, a direct threat to your freedom.

[1714625429]

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[1714625429]

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[o_e_l_e_o]

and such is the scheme for implementing security.

Blacklisting does not make any user or their coins more secure.

As I understand it, you see this as a restriction of freedoms

Correct.

I see it - protecting users from dubious transactions.

It doesn't protect anyone from anything, because there is nothing to protect against. By implementing such a blacklist, Wasabi are buying in to the nonsense of taint, and therefore helping to create and enforce something which doesn't actually exist so they can then use that to justify their actions.

It's like a seat belt in a car - it kind of interferes with your free movement, but it helps to save your life.

A flawed analogy. A seat belt makes you safer - a blacklist doesn't. It just compromises your privacy.

[DrBeer]

But I do not consider the presence of a coordinator something out of the ordinary "creepy"

What do you mean you don't consider it "something out of the ordinary 'creepy'"?

This is most likely a tribute to fashion, and such is the scheme for implementing security.

Which thing exactly is a tribute to fashion? Wasabi Wallet? The coordinator? And since when a "tribute to fashion" has anything to do with security?

As I understand it, you see this as a restriction of freedoms, I see it - protecting users from dubious transactions.

You see it in the wrong way, then. I was never asked to be protected. In fact, I've been using this currency for over 2 years, because I'm well aware that I'm completely responsible for my actions, and when I see privacy invasion, like that, I can only characterize it harmful. There's no freedom without privacy and the mileage arguments of pro-censorship have been debunked; their persuasiveness was never strong anyway.

It's like a seat belt in a car - it kind of interferes with your free movement, but it helps to save your life.

It doesn't save your life, it worsens it. What if I told you that you should publish your private messages, calls, to not use cash, to not use encryption (e.g., https), because terrorists use these stuff? What if I told you that you should post your identity, selfies, wife's conversations, political views, banking transactions (since you can't use cash), and all that stuff that describe your personal life as an alibi to prevent criminality? What do you have to hide anyway?

You don't need privacy, because you have something to hide. You need it, because you've nothing to show. Ignoring privacy invasion thinking it doesn't concern you personally is, besides a meat and drink for authoritarians, a direct threat to your freedom.

1. This means that in my opinion this is not an unacceptable solution. I am sure, as in real life - fiat life, there are scammers who, for example, in an online store, can use fraudulent schemes to get money from not very attentive users. if a similar unified system of blocking transactions on cards that were marked as fraudulent worked in the banking sector, and transactions on them required manual intervention, knowing how many people had already complained about this card or cardholder, the number of such operations would decrease significantly. It's just that in the real world there is at least some chance to return the money (if you have time to notice), then in the crypto world - no one will ever return it to you ...

2. "Tribute to fashion" - not just in quotation marks. For example, I see that everything goes to control over cryptocurrency flows, regulators, laws, ministries of finance, banks - they cannot exist without control and management. Digital freedom is like a "double-edged sword", it can be beneficial, but the probability of being used for harm is very high. For example, at the moment, for myself, I don’t see where I would need mega-anonymity. Well, honestly! For example, you leave so many copies of your digital and analog data in your life that a transaction, even for the purchase of something expensive, against this background does not look like the most secret information.

3. As I see it - this is my personal opinion, and for me it is. What you wrote is your personal opinion, and this does not mean that it is the only true one If you do not like something in the product, you have the opportunity to choose another product. No one is forcing or forcing you. This is what freedom means! I never buy something that doesn't suit me or I don't like it

4. It minimizes the risks at least. I repeat once again - if you decide to hide from the whole world - burn bank cards, destroy data centers where online stores store your personal data, including delivery addresses, passport and state registration - also put on fire, burn your laptop, and drain the ashes into the sewer, and never buy anything except for cash, and be sure to wear rubber gloves so as not to leave marks on bills! This is of course humor, but very close to reality.

[n0nce]

4. It minimizes the risks at least. I repeat once again - if you decide to hide from the whole world - burn bank cards, destroy data centers where online stores store your personal data, including delivery addresses, passport and state registration - also put on fire, burn your laptop, and drain the ashes into the sewer, and never buy anything except for cash, and be sure to wear rubber gloves so as not to leave marks on bills! This is of course humor, but very close to reality.

What risks, though? Do you believe that Wasabi's blacklist gets someone his coins back who was scammed? Because that's absolutely not what's going on here.. There is no way to reverse a Bitcoin transaction; no matter if you have a blacklist or not. You could make the coins unspendable, if there were a single globally accepted blacklist; but that doesn't and will never exist.

This is one of the core issues: Imagine a world, where American exchanges and services blacklist Russian users; Russian services blacklist American and European users. Then a CEO that is part of one political movement decides that people who follow the opposite political movement are terrorists and blacklists their funds... I could go on and on about this forever. That's what we call 'non-fungibility'. If fungibility, i.e. every coin being equal to any other coin of the same amount, is not given, the whole thing is unusable and pointless. This makes blacklists a direct attack against the usability and as such also on the entirety, of Bitcoin itself.

Since you are so keen on the 'I have nothing to hide' narrative; why are you interested in a 'privacy wallet' in the first place? And why don't you post your full name, ID and address on the forum? ^{( -- rhetorical question, please do not do it -- )}

[Pmalek]

<Snip>

So if I own a shop and you come to my store to buy something, you wouldn't mind if I put all your bills under the microscope and also check to see if there are any traces of drugs, semen, explosives, and other illegal substances? If I find something I don't like, you will be reported to the police, then you can explain to them why you were trying to pay with a $50 bill that had DNA of a rapist who got imprisoned last week. I am exaggerating on purpose so you can understand how ridiculous this situation is.

After all that, would you say shopping at my store makes you feel safe, and would you recommend my business to friends and family?   

[o_e_l_e_o]

1. This means that in my opinion this is not an unacceptable solution. I am sure, as in real life - fiat life, there are scammers who, for example, in an online store, can use fraudulent schemes to get money from not very attentive users. if a similar unified system of blocking transactions on cards that were marked as fraudulent worked in the banking sector, and transactions on them required manual intervention, knowing how many people had already complained about this card or cardholder, the number of such operations would decrease significantly. It's just that in the real world there is at least some chance to return the money (if you have time to notice), then in the crypto world - no one will ever return it to you ...

Blacklists do nothing to make you more secure against scammers. Further, unlike fiat, there is no scope for "manual intervention" here. You cannot appeal to Wasabi after they blacklist your coins and get them to change their mind, not least because you will have absolutely no idea why your coins were blacklisted in the first place.

2. "Tribute to fashion" - not just in quotation marks. For example, I see that everything goes to control over cryptocurrency flows, regulators, laws, ministries of finance, banks - they cannot exist without control and management. Digital freedom is like a "double-edged sword", it can be beneficial, but the probability of being used for harm is very high. For example, at the moment, for myself, I don’t see where I would need mega-anonymity. Well, honestly! For example, you leave so many copies of your digital and analog data in your life that a transaction, even for the purchase of something expensive, against this background does not look like the most secret information.

If you want to sacrifice your privacy for some small convenience, fine. You don't get to remove the right for privacy from everyone else, though.

3. As I see it - this is my personal opinion, and for me it is. What you wrote is your personal opinion, and this does not mean that it is the only true one If you do not like something in the product, you have the opportunity to choose another product. No one is forcing or forcing you. This is what freedom means! I never buy something that doesn't suit me or I don't like it

Absolutely. We also have the freedom to warn everyone else that Wasabi is pro-censorship and anti-bitcoin.

4. It minimizes the risks at least. I repeat once again - if you decide to hide from the whole world - burn bank cards, destroy data centers where online stores store your personal data, including delivery addresses, passport and state registration - also put on fire, burn your laptop, and drain the ashes into the sewer, and never buy anything except for cash, and be sure to wear rubber gloves so as not to leave marks on bills! This is of course humor, but very close to reality.

Privacy is not black and white. It is entirely logical to not go to these extremes while also not wanting to use a bitcoin wallet which cooperates with blockchain analysis and spies on you.

[DrBeer]

and such is the scheme for implementing security.

Blacklisting does not make any user or their coins more secure.

As I understand it, you see this as a restriction of freedoms

Correct.

I see it - protecting users from dubious transactions.

It doesn't protect anyone from anything, because there is nothing to protect against. By implementing such a blacklist, Wasabi are buying in to the nonsense of taint, and therefore helping to create and enforce something which doesn't actually exist so they can then use that to justify their actions.

It's like a seat belt in a car - it kind of interferes with your free movement, but it helps to save your life.

A flawed analogy. A seat belt makes you safer - a blacklist doesn't. It just compromises your privacy.

1. Does - answered the previous participant, using a simple example.
2. In the same thing, we can see a different essence. This applies, of course, to things and decisions that can be evaluated more than unambiguously. For example, I will not argue with you that the projection of the Earth or a basketball is in the form of a circle, or is aimed at. But for me, anonymity is a very ambiguous concept. And I have the right to such an opinion!
3. "By implementing such a blacklist, Wasabi are buying in to the nonsense of taint, and therefore helping to create and enforce something which doesn't actually exist so they can then use that to justify their actions." - and this is your opinion, which I consider erroneous. But it is yours, and you have the right to think so! But I think otherwise
4. Your right to rate it however you like. Sounds like a good analogy for me

...and once again - if you are a sponsor, or an investor of the development team - you have the right to DEMAND. If you use their solution for FREE and you don't like it - change the product! Everything is extremely simple

[o_e_l_e_o]

1. Does - answered the previous participant, using a simple example.

I've already explained in my last post why your example is flawed.

3. "By implementing such a blacklist, Wasabi are buying in to the nonsense of taint, and therefore helping to create and enforce something which doesn't actually exist so they can then use that to justify their actions." - and this is your opinion, which I consider erroneous. But it is yours, and you have the right to think so! But I think otherwise

So you, like Wasabi, believe that that bitcoin is non-fungible, that some bitcoin are "tainted", and therefore, some bitcoin are worth more than others? This is an attack on the very fundamentals of what makes bitcoin bitcoin.

If you use their solution for FREE and you don't like it - change the product! Everything is extremely simple

Don't worry, I have absolutely no intention of every using a wallet which spies on me and censors me, but I am equally free to spread the word about just how terrible a wallet Wasabi is.

[DrBeer]

1. Does - answered the previous participant, using a simple example.

I've already explained in my last post why your example is flawed.

3. "By implementing such a blacklist, Wasabi are buying in to the nonsense of taint, and therefore helping to create and enforce something which doesn't actually exist so they can then use that to justify their actions." - and this is your opinion, which I consider erroneous. But it is yours, and you have the right to think so! But I think otherwise

So you, like Wasabi, believe that that bitcoin is non-fungible, that some bitcoin are "tainted", and therefore, some bitcoin are worth more than others? This is an attack on the very fundamentals of what makes bitcoin bitcoin.

If you use their solution for FREE and you don't like it - change the product! Everything is extremely simple

Don't worry, I have absolutely no intention of every using a wallet which spies on me and censors me, but I am equally free to spread the word about just how terrible a wallet Wasabi is.

1. This is your opinion, and it is true for you, and those who adhere to your views. For example, I do not adhere to them, and in my opinion it is erroneous It happens!
2. You are now trying to change the essence of this decision, and make it "universal evil." Tell me - how does blocking bad transactions violate your anonymity, which you care so much about? It seems that you are confusing the concept of anonymity with permissiveness. I'll upset you - these are different essences
3. You see - there is no real problem for you. You have warned your supporters. That's it - well done, you voiced your position, maybe someone will accept it

[dkbit98]

I repeat once again - if you decide to hide from the whole world - burn bank cards, destroy data centers where online stores store your personal data, including delivery addresses, passport and state registration - also put on fire, burn your laptop, and drain the ashes into the sewer, and never buy anything except for cash, and be sure to wear rubber gloves so as not to leave marks on bills!

I guess you are walking naked in the street every day, and you keep your toilet door open non-stop so everyone can see what you are doing, since you don't have anything to hide, right?  

This is one of the core issues: Imagine a world, where American exchanges and services blacklist Russian users; Russian services blacklist American and European users.

I don't have to imagine this, because we already live in world that looks a lot like this  
Someone wanted to polarize us in two sides so we can fight each other, while someone else is stealing all the money and making brave new world changes.
We watched movies like this so many times and I don't know how we can fall on that same thing every time.

PS
For anyone testing Wasabi wallet, remember to update to latest version 2.0.1
https://github.com/zkSNACKs/WalletWasabi/releases

[o_e_l_e_o]

1. This is your opinion, and it is true for you, and those who adhere to your views. For example, I do not adhere to them, and in my opinion it is erroneous It happens!

Ok. So explain how, in your opinion, Wasabi spying on its users and blacklisting various inputs makes my coins more secure?

2. You are now trying to change the essence of this decision, and make it "universal evil."

I'm not changing anything. By blacklisting coins Wasabi are saying that some bitcoin are not wanted, therefore making bitcoin non-fungible, which is an attack on the very essence of bitcoin.

Tell me - how does blocking bad transactions violate your anonymity, which you care so much about?

Because to block any inputs, Wasabi must first choose which inputs to block, which necessitates spying on all inputs.

[BlackHatCoiner]

1. This is your opinion, and it is true for you, and those who adhere to your views. For example, I do not adhere to them, and in my opinion it is erroneous It happens!

Which part is erroneous? That blacklisting arbitrarily inputs some entities believe they come from a "bad" activity harms the bitcoin environment? That comparing a seat belt with being pro-censorship is a flawed comparison? That treating bitcoin as non-fungible goes against bitcoin and hard cash as a whole? That privacy invasion is a bad thing?

Tell me - how does blocking bad transactions violate your anonymity, which you care so much about?

Simple. To prevent "bad" transactions from being made (which is often labeled like that arbitrarily) you have to be aware of all the transactions, therefore invade as much privacy as possible. Remember that bitcoin transactions do not include names or descriptions.

I have posted an ever better example few posts above.

What if I told you that you should post your identity, selfies, wife's conversations, political views, banking transactions (since you can't use cash), and all that stuff that describe your personal life as an alibi to prevent criminality?

[n0nce]

~

I've read a few of your posts and they basically just consist of lists where the reply to every point we bring up is:
X. [variation of 'this is just an opinion - I'm entitled to my opinion']

This is not how discussions and arguments work. If someone brings up an objectively valid argument, a reply like 'no, my opinion is the opposite of yours' is just empty and will never convince anyone. It's the analogue of an ostrich burying its head in the sand.
Why can't you, you know, actually reply?

This is one of the core issues: Imagine a world, where American exchanges and services blacklist Russian users; Russian services blacklist American and European users.

I don't have to imagine this, because we already live in world that looks a lot like this 

Good point. That's why I included the example with Russia; since I heard something about that in the news.
My opinion on this topic has always been: don't complain to the exchanges and try making them reverse these changes - let your money speak and stop using them.. Anyhow; off-topic. Just saying. People need to change their mindset a bit. Stop letting someone (exchange, wallet, ...) harass them and use other tools and services.

Actually I just looked up the topic and found this:

Coinbase said it blocked tens of thousands of accounts linked to Russian individuals and entities suspected of 'illicit' activity

The funny thing is; as I just said, most people's reaction is stuck in 2016 'Don't leave your funds on exchanges' - this must shift to 'Stop using centralized exchanges altogether'.

[pooya87]

The funny thing is; as I just said, most people's reaction is stuck in 2016 'Don't leave your funds on exchanges' - this must shift to 'Stop using centralized exchanges altogether'.

That may be because the second statement is incomplete since it needs to also offer the alternative. You can't just tell people to stop using something they need without giving them an alternative. For example we know Bisq exists but it is not popular and it doesn't offer the same options like last time I checked it didn't support stablecoins like Tether which is what shitcoin traders look for.

[DrBeer]

I repeat once again - if you decide to hide from the whole world - burn bank cards, destroy data centers where online stores store your personal data, including delivery addresses, passport and state registration - also put on fire, burn your laptop, and drain the ashes into the sewer, and never buy anything except for cash, and be sure to wear rubber gloves so as not to leave marks on bills!

I guess you are walking naked in the street every day, and you keep your toilet door open non-stop so everyone can see what you are doing, since you don't have anything to hide, right?  

You have a very wild imagination. I just said what to check, according to the database - do you have bad deeds or not, but you already fantasized about nudism and exhibitionism Once again - security control is not the same as using a toilet with open doors ... If this is for you identical entities - live with it, I can't forbid you, but I have my own and different opinion

[Pmalek]

...I have my own and different opinion

Your opinion seems to be greatly affected by the signature you are wearing because that opinion wasn't voiced before the campaign started. But that's your right and you are entitled to your own opinion. Just don't let the signature cloud your judgement and logic. To me personally, and many other members, it's unacceptable to justify someone's decision to censor Bitcoin and say your input is welcome, but yours isn't because we don't like you or your history. But if you are pro censorship and centralized decision-makers, that's your call. The idea of Bitcoin is somewhat different.   

[witcher_sense]

Does anyone know why Wasabi Wallet is still among recommended wallets on bitcoin.org? https://bitcoin.org/en/wallets/desktop/windows/wasabi



This information is obsolete and therefore misleading.

Wasabi Wallet no longer prevents spying on your transactions. Instead, it alleviates such spying via direct collaborations with blockchain surveillance companies.

Having partnered with a blockchain surveillance company (the name of which is kept secret), Wasabi Wallet is now likely required to disclose the information about CoinJoin participants, which will be further used against the will or interest of said participants. https://twitter.com/SamouraiWallet/status/1539618567276093441

Tor doesn't help much when all your financial transactions are being directly handed over to law enforcement agencies.

[NeuroticFish]

Does anyone know why Wasabi Wallet is still among recommended wallets on bitcoin.org?

I think that you're doing it wrong and will not get the correct answer here.

I think that you should make another topic exactly on this matter, gather the correct information and input there (I don't know the story good enough, sorry) and then, if it's the case, post an issue into Bitcoin.org git ( https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/Bitcoin.org/issues ) with explanations and link to the topic you've created, then see what can be done.

[ABCbits]

Does anyone know why Wasabi Wallet is still among recommended wallets on bitcoin.org? https://bitcoin.org/en/wallets/desktop/windows/wasabi

It might be because nobody complained so far on bitcoin.org repository[1].

This information is obsolete and therefore misleading.

Wasabi Wallet no longer prevents spying on your transactions. Instead, it alleviates such spying via direct collaborations with blockchain surveillance companies.

Wasabi still meet all those points though, since wasabi create HD wallet, use BIP 158 (also called Neutrino[2]) and use Tor by default. It's more appropriate to say those privacy feature not useful since Wasabi (the company) collaborate with blockchain surveillance companies for CoinJoin feature.

[1] https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/Bitcoin.org/issues?q=is%3Aissue+wasabi
[2] https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/neutrino-privacy-preserving-light-wallet-protocol

[DrBeer]

1. This means that in my opinion this is not an unacceptable solution. I am sure, as in real life - fiat life, there are scammers who, for example, in an online store, can use fraudulent schemes to get money from not very attentive users. if a similar unified system of blocking transactions on cards that were marked as fraudulent worked in the banking sector, and transactions on them required manual intervention, knowing how many people had already complained about this card or cardholder, the number of such operations would decrease significantly . It's just that in the real world there is at least some chance to return the money (if you have time to notice), then in the crypto world - no one will ever return it to you ...

Blacklists do nothing to make you more secure against scammers. Further, unlike fiat, there is no scope for "manual intervention" here. You cannot appeal to Wasabi after they blacklist your coins and get them to change their mind, not least because you will have absolutely no idea why your coins were blacklisted in the first place.

2. "Tribute to fashion" - not just in quotation marks. For example, I see that everything goes to control over cryptocurrency flows, regulators, laws, ministries of finance, banks - they cannot exist without control and management. Digital freedom is like a "double-edged sword", it can be beneficial, but the probability of being used for harm is very high. For example, at the moment, for myself, I don't see where I would need mega-anonymity. Well, honestly! For example, you leave so many copies of your digital and analog data in your life that a transaction, even for the purchase of something expensive, against this background does not look like the most secret information.

If you want to sacrifice your privacy for some small convenience, fine. You don't get to remove the right for privacy from everyone else, though.

3. As I see it - this is my personal opinion, and for me it is. What you wrote is your personal opinion, and this does not mean that it is the only true one No one is forcing or forcing you. This is what freedom means! I never buy something that doesn't suit me or I don't like it

Absolutely. We also have the freedom to warn everyone else that Wasabi is pro-censorship and anti-bitcoin.

4. It minimizes the risks at least. I repeat once again - if you decide to hide from the whole world - burn bank cards, destroy data centers where online stores store your personal data, including delivery addresses, passport and state registration - also put on fire, burn your laptop, and drain the ashes into the sewer, and never buy anything except for cash, and be sure to wear rubber gloves so as not to leave marks on bills! This is of course humor, but very close to reality.

Privacy is not black and white. It is entirely logical to not go to these extremes while also not wanting to use a bitcoin wallet which cooperates with blockchain analysis and spies on you.

1. already described examples - makes it safer. If you are afraid of getting blacklisted - you know what their triggers are, just don't have relationships with questionable personalities.
2. Exactly - I am ready to exchange some, and for me, a dubious risk of deanonymization, for higher security! But you also do not have the right to restrict my security rights! Or just you can not be limited? Moreover, there are a lot of alternatives - choose, or is this wallet the most comfortable for you?
3. I agree! This is freedom - you warned those for whom mega-anonymity is extremely important - you are done!
4. Unfortunately, very bad people often use confidentiality. And I am a supporter of the fact that safety is above very dubious benefits (of course - in my opinion).

...I have my own and different opinion

Your opinion seems to be greatly affected by the signature you are wearing because that opinion wasn't voiced before the campaign started. But that's your right and you are entitled to your own opinion. Just don't let the signature cloud your judgement and logic. To me personally, and many other members, it's unacceptable to justify someone's decision to censor Bitcoin and say your input is welcome, but yours isn't because we don't like you or your history. But if you are pro censorship and centralized decision-makers, that's your call. The idea of Bitcoin is somewhat different.  

Well, it’s a conspiracy theory I suggest reading my older posts about anonymity, decentralization, and security, among other things. And a week, and a month, and a year ago I had an identical opinion. In a word - they did not guess the reason for my opinion
But regarding "I can't tell people not to use" - it's very debatable. Once again I explain the situation. Wassabi is FREE software in which neither you nor anyone other than developers and/or investors have invested money or effort. And demand - you can not. You can express your opinion. And then, thanks to the advantages of the wallet, you either use it or not. This is called freedom of choice, and the right of the wallet developer to make decisions, as the author of this convenient and functional product.
Well, and most importantly - what can they track that is so secret? Do you often conduct transactions that they describe as illegal? And there is a list of really very specific operations. Stop doing them and you will have nothing to hide!